Sale of Tickets (Sporting and Cultural Events) Bill

Sarah Newton Excerpts

Friday 21st January 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mrs Hodgson]

Definitely. I do not think that the hon. Member for Shipley (Philip Davies) quite realised he was helping our cause when he made that intervention, but I thank him for doing so.

The situation to which I referred opens up the market to touts. They buy tickets at the low price that the governing body has decided to sell them at, and by selling them on at a profit they deprive fans of lesser means of the opportunity to enjoy top-class sport.

[Sarah Newton (Truro and Falmouth) (Con)]

Does the hon. Lady agree that in this House we sometimes struggle to find issues of relevance to young people and their families? Here we have an issue that is incredibly important to teenagers who are passionately involved in sport, which we hear many Members applauding and wanting to promote. Those interested in the creative industries are also relevant. Is it not vital that we listen to and encourage those young people and reflect their concerns in the legislation that we make in the House?

[Mrs Hodgson]

Definitely; I certainly agree. I am so grateful for that intervention. If the hon. Lady wants to make any further interventions, so that it is not just my voice that everybody hears today, I would be grateful.

Faced with this situation, it would be no surprise if sports simply put up their prices to squeeze the touts out, but they do not want to do that—and as we have heard, we do not want them to do that and teenagers do not want them to do that. Sports need to create a sustainable level of interest, and pricing the vast majority of families out of top events would certainly negate that ambition.

What sports want is to be protected by a regulatory scheme such as the one set out in the Bill. Only the sports that experience problems with touts would opt in to be covered. That would mean that it would not be the overarching, top-down imposition on the industry that some Government Members may try to argue it is. It would mean the Government doing what the Government should do: stepping into the market when they are needed to ensure that it operates in the best interests of the majority, especially of young people.

Tim Lamb, chief executive of the Sport and Recreation Alliance, summed up the position from the perspective of the sports that he represents. He said:

“Ticket touts are simply exploiting sport and their gain is everyone else’s loss.”

He could not be more right. I have also had positive feedback from Festival Republic, best known for putting on the Reading and Leeds festivals every August, which has been campaigning prominently on this issue for years, and from See Tickets, a major primary ticket agent. See has worked with the organisers of the Glastonbury festival to ensure that passes for the festival are impossible to sell on, by requiring pre-registration and photographs of the ticket holder to be printed on the ticket. That is effective, but completely impractical for the vast majority of live events and not something that organisers should have to invest in.

The interesting thing about See is that it has nothing to gain from the Bill. It gets paid for selling tickets, whether to touts or genuine fans, yet it still sees the huge unfairness in how the secondary market has developed. Rob Wilmshurst, See’s chief executive, said:

“The live entertainment industry provides cultural and economic benefit to the UK and needs support. Ignoring this issue again will further diminish customer trust in the market and therefore the contribution the industry makes in general to the country.”

Again, that is an insightful comment from someone who knows the industry better than any of us in the Chamber, as has been the case with all the feedback that I have relayed to hon. Members today. If those figures and their peers support the Bill or any action to make the situation fairer, it is incumbent on the Government to listen to those calls and at least re-examine the impact that the secondary market is having on live entertainment.

Simon Davies, chief executive of the Teenage Cancer Trust, was also at the meeting that I had last night. I also met him and his team late last year to discuss the Bill. I put on the record my sincere thanks to them for their support and input into the process. For those Members who are unaware of the work done by the Teenage Cancer Trust or who think that it is fair for touts to take money away from such work, I shall explain. The trust funds and builds specialist units in the NHS that cater for the specific needs of young people and teenagers who suffer from cancer, bringing them together so that they can socialise with and support each other through the most difficult time that one could ever imagine. On top of that, the trust funds a network of teenage cancer specialists and nurse consultants, to pool knowledge and expertise and provide tailored support to the young people. I am sure that all hon. Members would agree that it is an exceptionally worthy cause.

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[Mike Weatherley]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for making that point. It is entirely accurate to say that the selling on of football tickets is problematic because of the segregation of supporters. That is well recognised by all concerned and is just one reason why the promoters of any event might want to restrict to whom tickets are being sold. There are other reasons, and I shall give a good example of one that relates to Conservative Members in a moment.

An hon. Member explained to me that that restriction would not apply to house building—that a developer who builds houses should be free to sell to people, and those people should be free to sell on again. Of course that is true, but if, for charitable reasons, the developer wants five of those houses to go to Cancer Research nurses, they are quite within their rights to say, “We will only sell those on in future to Cancer Research nurses” and restrict the free market into the future as to where those houses go. I see that as no different from the owner—the creative industry person who creates the product—deciding what they want to do with their product into the future. It is essential, therefore, that the owner of the skill or creative talent, or supplier, has a say in who the end user is—but not in all situations. The Bill does not cover every event, and the promoter or band who wish to cover their event have to so designate it.

It is impossible to restrict onward selling without having a mechanism for refund, and the Bill not only allows for a refund but allows on-sale at a premium, be that 10% or double face value or whatever has been decided in the final stages. I am going to a concert tonight—The Cult at Hammersmith Apollo—and my colleague has a spare ticket. He is going to on-sell that ticket at face value, and he should be able to do so. I see no reason why, in that situation, he should not. There are no crowd control or exploitation issues.

However, our discussion relates to those ticket agents that advertise sporting or music events later in the year—sometimes before tickets are even on sale—at 10 times face value. They buy in their hundreds and sell on at huge profits. It is possible to buy Chelsea tickets for later in the season right now, although they are not on sale—and incidentally, as everyone knows, the premier league has a rule on selling at face value only. That is a clear example where the free market for ticket sales is not advantageous. We have mentioned the Olympic games; a non-profit clause is enshrined in its arrangements as well.

There are other cases where the issuer reserves the right for tickets to be non-transferable—train and plane tickets, for example. I expect that when hon. Members sell tickets for a fundraising dinner, they reserve the right to object to a replacement being issued. Can they imagine tickets for the forthcoming Conservative ball, which are £400 each to raise funds for the party, being bought up by touts and sold on at £1,000 to lobbyists, or others, whom they may not necessarily want in their midst? Of course not. The point is that the person giving the function restricts the number of tickets, and insists on the person buying attending or getting permission to transfer. It is right and proper that the person providing the event has some say in that.

On the face of it, ticket touts provide a free-market service, but scratch a little deeper, and for some events that is a misguided and counter-productive service. The touts are exploiting a market abnormality to the detriment of the wishes of those who put on the event.

The proposals in the Bill are fair, in that selling at a small premium is allowed and not all events are covered. Only those wishing to be bound by the rules need apply. If the artist is happy for their tickets to be sold at a premium, that is fine. I slightly disagree with the hon. Member for Washington and Sunderland West, who said that Madonna would sell at a premium on an auction. I think it right and proper that she be allowed to do so; that is a free-market thing, and she has control of her product to do what she wants with it, but if she has decided that she wants to sell it at a certain price, that should be respected by the copyright owner.

[Sarah Newton]

Does my hon. Friend agree that we have rightly, as a coalition Government, focused on wanting to support free enterprise, to create a lot more jobs in the private—

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)]

Order. The hon. Lady should be speaking through the Chair. I find it difficult to hear otherwise.

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[Sarah Newton]

I am sorry; of course, Mr Deputy Speaker.

Quite rightly, the coalition Government have focused on supporting small business, private enterprise and growing jobs in the private sector. Does my hon. Friend agree that the Government should be listening to such an important and growing sector of our economy as the creative industries? They have identified this practice as being problematic and standing in the way of them growing this successful business and creating new jobs in our economy.

[Mike Weatherley]

My hon. Friend makes a very good point. If a business wants to develop its products, it might underprice in the market for a number of reasons, as I have said, one of which could be market penetration. If someone wants to develop a fan base and encourage people who might not necessarily come to watch their events or try their commercial products, they will often use prices far below market value to get people to try them for the first time. A lot of ticket promotions do that specifically for concerts, sporting events and so on. Small businesses and small events that are trying to grow their business can have very good reasons why they might want to carry on a market penetration for a long time into the future. I thank my colleague for her intervention.

The price that the creative copyright holder wants to charge should not be a judgment for the House or any external body. If a biscuit manufacturer wants to give away biscuits for sampling purposes, we should respect that. We should not say that touts can buy them up and sell them on. As my hon. Friend said, we should help that business to develop its market. We should not be judgmental about what it does for commercial reasons. Let us not kill the goose that lays the golden egg. Let us listen to the music managers, football clubs and those who provide creative services—I have met no one who is against this measure—and get behind the Bill to the benefit of the country in the long term.