Police, Crime, Sentencing and Courts Bill (Fifteenth sitting) Debate
Full Debate: Read Full DebateSarah Jones
Main Page: Sarah Jones (Labour - Croydon West)Department Debates - View all Sarah Jones's debates with the Home Office
(3 years, 6 months ago)
Public Bill CommitteesI beg to move amendment 101, in clause 139, page 128, line 42, at end insert—
“(9A) If the order is made before regulations have been made under section 175(1) of the Police, Crime, Sentencing and Courts Bill for the coming into force of section 139 of that Act for all purposes and in relation to the whole of England and Wales, the court must, in every case where the prosecution makes an application under paragraph (b) of section 342A(1) for a serious violence reduction order to be made, set out in writing its reasons for making, or not making, such an order.”
This amendment would require the court, during any pilot of serious violence reduction orders, to set out in writing its reasons for making or not making such an order.
With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:
Amendment 103, in clause 139, page 133, line 43, at end insert—
“(3A) Guidance under this section must include guidance on the intelligence, community information and risk factors that are to be considered before an application is made for the imposition of a serious violence reduction order.”
Clause stand part.
Amendment 99, in clause 140, page 134, line 33, leave out “and (3)” and insert “(3) and (3A)”
Amendment 98, in clause 140, page 134, line 42, at end insert—
“(3A) The report under subsection (3) must include—
(a) information on the ethnicity of people made subject to a serious violence reduction order;
(b) information on the number of people made subject to a serious violence reduction order where there is no evidence of their having handled a weapon, either in the incident resulting in the imposition of the order or previously;
(c) information on the number of people stopped by a police officer in the belief that they are subject to a serious violence reduction order, broken down by ethnicity (collected on the basis of self-identification by the person stopped), and including information on the number of times any one individual is stopped;
(d) analysis of the distribution of serious violence reduction orders in relation to the ethnic make-up of the population;
(e) an equality impact assessment including an assessment of the impact of the pilot on the groups mentioned in the equality statement produced before the pilot is commenced;
(f) analysis of data assessing the extent to which the pilot has reduced serious violent crime and reoffending by comparison with other areas;
(g) an assessment by the Sentencing Council of the proportionality of the distribution of the imposition of serious violence reduction orders;
(h) analysis of (i) the impact of the length of time for which a serious violence reduction order is imposed on reoffending and (ii) the extent to which the length of time for which a serious violence reduction order is imposed has harmful impacts on the life of the individual who is subject to it;
(i) an assessment of the impact of the imposition of serious violence reduction orders on the use of ‘stop and account’ in the pilot area or areas;
(j) feedback from Community Scrutiny Panels on scrutiny of body-worn video of all stops of people subject to, or believed to be subject to, a serious violence reduction order;
(k) analysis of any adverse impact of the imposition of serious violence reduction orders, undertaken on the basis of interviews with (i) people subject to a serious violence reduction order and (ii) organisations working with young people, in addition to any other information considered relevant by the person conducting the analysis;
(l) analysis of who is made subject to a serious violence reduction order, what evidence is relied on to justify the imposition of such orders, and whether there is any bias in the decision-making process;
(m) analysis of information on the reason for each breach of a serious violence reduction order;
(n) analysis of the extent to which searches made under the powers granted by this Part could have been carried out under other powers.
(3B) Statistical information collected for the purposes of section (3A) from different pilot areas must be collected and presented in a form which enables direct comparison between those areas.”
Amendment 100, in clause 140, page 134, line 42, at end insert—
“(3A) The condition in this subsection is that consultation on the report under subsection (3) has been undertaken with anyone the Secretary of State considers appropriate, including—
(a) representatives of the voluntary sector, and
(b) representatives of communities disproportionately represented in the criminal justice system.”
Amendment 102, in clause 140, page 135, line 2, at end insert—
“(4A) Regulations under section 175(1) which bring section 139 into force only for a specified purpose or in relation to a specified area—
(a) must include provision bringing into force section 342J of the Sentencing Code (Guidance); and
(b) must provide that section 139 may come into force for other specified purposes or in relation to specified areas only once guidance has been issued under section 342J of the Sentencing Code.”
This amendment would require the Secretary of State to issue guidance on serious violence reduction orders before any pilot could commence.
Amendment 104, in clause 140, page 135, line 2, at end insert—
“(4A) The powers under section 342A(2) of the Sentencing Code are exercisable before the power in section 175(1) has been exercised so as to bring section 139 into force for all purposes and in relation to the whole of England and Wales only if every officer of any police force in an area in relation to which section 139 has been brought into force has completed the College of Policing two-day training on stop and search.”
This amendment would require all police officers in a pilot force area to have completed the College of Policing training on stop and search before the power to impose serious violence reduction orders could be used.
Clause 140 stand part.
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship again, Mr McCabe. Part 10, chapter 1, introduces serious violence reduction orders. Officers would be allowed to search people with an SVRO without reasonable grounds and without authorisation, which would be an unusual stop-and-search power. In effect, SVROs are not only a new court order, but a new stop-and-search power.
Clauses 139 and 140 specifically encourage officers to search people with previous convictions. The only safeguard in the Bill is the fact that the court decides whether to apply an SVRO on a conviction or not. Once an individual has an SVRO, officers would not have to meet any legal test in order to search them for an offensive weapon.
The context is that, on this Government’s watch, there have been record levels of serious violence. Despite the fall in violent crime during the first lockdown, it exceeded the levels of the previous year by the summer; between July and September 2020, it was up 9% compared to the same period in 2019. Violent crime has reached record levels, with police dealing with 4,900 violent crimes a day on average in the last year. The police have recorded rises in violence nationally since 2014, and violence has more than doubled in the past five years. In the year ending September 2020, violence against the person reached 1.79 million offences—its highest level since comparative records began in 2002-03.
Even during the last year, knife crime increased in 18 out of the 43 forces—44% of forces—despite the effects of lockdown. In the last year, violence made up nearly a third of all crime dealt with by the police; it was up from 16% when the Tories took office and 12% in 2002-03. Reports of violent crime have increased in every police force in the country since 2010. In four fifths of forces, violent crime has at least doubled, and knife crime reached its highest level on record in 2019-20, having almost doubled since 2013-14. There is clearly much to be done.
On the flip side, more and more violent offenders are getting away with their crimes; charge rates for violent offences have plummeted from 22% in 2014-15 to just 6.8% in 2019-20. While the total number of violent crimes recorded has more than doubled in the last 6 years, the number of suspects charged has fallen by a quarter, and the number of cases where no suspect is identified at all has nearly trebled. It is clear that the Government have a serious problem; they have let serious violence spiral out of control.
Earlier in Committee, we discussed the prevention of serious violence, and I put forward various amendments to improve clauses that we broadly welcomed. We talked about the way that violence drives violence, and said that if the Government want to properly follow a public health approach to tackling serious violence, they cannot treat it as though it happened in a vacuum. We need a proper public health approach to tackling violence that addresses the root causes of why people fall into crime, with early intervention to significantly impact the lives of vulnerable young people and communities.
It is hard to be persuaded that more sweeping powers to stop and search people with previous convictions will reduce serious violence. There is little evidence that stop-and-search is an effective deterrent to offending. That is not to say that it is not an important tool; it absolutely is and we all agree with that—nobody is saying otherwise. It is part of the police’s armoury when it comes to tackling crime.
Stop-and-search is more effective at detecting criminals, but most searches result in officers finding nothing. The key figure, which it is always important to look at, is the proportion of searches that actually result in finding something. Only around 20% of searches in 2019-20 resulted in a criminal justice outcome—an arrest or an out-of-court disposal—linked to the purpose of the search.
While evidence regarding the impact on crime is mixed, the damaging impact of badly targeted or badly conducted stop-and-searches on community relations with the police is widely acknowledged, including in my community in Croydon, where the police have put a lot of work into building community relationships to try to bridge that gap.
Is my hon. Friend interested, as I am, to see what the Government plan to do to rebuild that trust with communities, which has, unfortunately, unravelled over the last few years?
My hon. Friend makes an important point. We should remind ourselves of this: if I faced a crime, I would immediately call the police—they are the people I trust to fix it—but there are communities in our country who do not have that trust, and who do not think that calling 999 will help them, or keep them safe. We must act on that. Following Black Lives Matter and the death of George Floyd, the police in Croydon have reached out to the young black men in our community to try to build relationships. That is exactly what we should do, and it is something that all the national police organisations are looking to do.
The Library states that
“Available statistical analysis does not show a consistent link between the increased use of stop-and-search and levels of violence”.
I do not often point to the Prime Minister as an example of good practice, but in every year while he was Mayor of London, the number of stop-and-searches went down in London, as did violent crime. Interestingly, he was following a slightly different course from the one he now advocates as Prime Minister.
The College of Policing has concluded that stop-and-search should be used “carefully” in response to knife crime. The Home Office’s research found that the surge in stop-and-search during Operation Blunt 2 had
“no discernible crime-reducing effects”.
A widely cited study that was published in the British Journal of Criminology and analysed London data from 2004 to 2014 concluded that the effect of stop-and-search on crime is
“likely to be marginal, at best”.
The research found
“some association between stop-and-search and crime (particularly drug crime)”,
which I will come back to, but concluded that the use of the powers
“has relatively little deterrent effect”.
Most searches result in officers finding nothing. Officers found nothing, as we have talked about, in nearly 80% of searches in 2019-2020. Searches for drugs were more successful than average, with about 25% linked to an outcome.
The Prime Minister and the Home Secretary, when they talk about stop-and-search, talk about getting knives off the streets. However, the searches for offensive weapons and items to be used in burglary, theft or fraud were the least likely to be successful—9% were linked to a successful outcome. The results are even lower for pre-condition searches, or section 60 searches, as they are called, although the only reason officers can use the power is to search for a knife or an offensive weapon. This is a very stark statistic: in 2019-20, only 1.4% of pre-condition searches led to officers finding a knife or offensive weapon. Nearly 99% of searches did not find an offensive weapon, and obviously that has taken a huge amount of police time and resources.
In February 2021, Her Majesty’s inspectorate of constabulary and fire and rescue services published the findings of a review of 9,378 search records, 14% of which had recorded grounds that were not reasonable, and the inspectorate said the vast majority of search records had weak recorded grounds. There is a real lack of clarity on both the success of stop-and-search, and the Government’s messaging on it. They say it is to tackle knife crime and break the cycle of weapon carrying, in the interests of keeping our community safer, but actually the figures for finding a weapon are really low. The Government need to be clear about what the purpose of stop-and-search is. It seems to be that most of the positive results are in finding drugs, yet in communications they say it is about protecting families from the scourge of knife crime.
Around 63% of all reasonable-grounds searches in 2019-20 were conducted to find controlled drugs. HMICFRS says,
“The high prevalence of searches for possession of drugs…indicates that efforts are not being effectively focused on force priorities.”
What the Government do not talk so much about is the outcome of these searches; if only 20% last year resulted in an outcome, what were the Government doing with this data—what are the results? What are they doing to try to measure and improve outcomes?
It is, of course, imperative that we pass legislation to keep the public safe, but these measures are not a proportionate way of protecting the public. They risk further entrenching disparities, and there is little evidence that they would have the crime reduction impact that the Government intend. The worry is that introducing more stop-and-search powers without reasonable grounds will only serve to stoke division, and not necessarily have the intended outcome.
We have sought to amend clauses 139 and 140, and I will get to the amendments later, but first I want to set out a number of problems that could arise if these clauses were to become law. The inspectorate and the Independent Office for Police Conduct both raised concerns about reasonable grounds not being used or recorded properly. As the College of Policing recognises, requiring that objective and reasonable grounds be established before police can exercise their stop-and-search powers is key to their decision making. However, the serious violence reduction orders in these clauses will require no reasonable grounds or authorisation. When Nina Champion from the Criminal Justice Alliance gave evidence to this Committee, she said:
“Of course, we all want to reduce knife crime, but…We worry about these very draconian and sweeping police powers to stop and search people for up to two years after their release without any reasonable grounds. Reasonable grounds are an absolutely vital safeguard on stop and search powers, and to be able to be stopped and searched at any point is a very draconian move that, again, risks adversely impacting on those with serious violence reduction orders. For young people who are trying to move away from crime, set up a new life and develop positive identities, to be repeatedly stopped and searched, labelled and stigmatised as someone still involved in that way of life could have adverse impacts. It could also have impacts on the potential exploitation of girlfriends or children carrying knives for people on those orders. There could be some real unintended consequences from these orders.”––[Official Report, Police, Crime, Sentencing and Courts Public Bill Committee, 18 May 2021; c. 156, Q265.]
Many different organisations have raised concerns about the measures in clauses 139 and 140. When I have spoken to police officers about them, they say that the clauses almost came out of the blue; it does not seem that these clauses come from the police, and they do have concerns about how they will enforce them.
Does the hon. Lady agree with the Metropolitan Police Commissioner and me that stop-and-search powers used properly and effectively can save lives, especially among young black men?
Stop-and-search is an important tool; I would not argue with that. The key is to make sure that it is used effectively, in conjunction with good local intelligence about where crimes may have been committed. In some of our black communities in London, and some of those I visited in Glasgow, and in certain estates or postcodes, people are experiencing the same overuse of stop-and-search. Where it goes wrong is where there is not intelligence—when people are stopped simply because of how they look. That is the risk. If, under section 60, police find one knife out of every 100 people stopped, that is a lot of resource; perhaps it is not the most effective way for the police to reduce violent crime. There are concerns about how stop-and-search is implemented, but the hon. Gentleman is right: it is very important.
Clause 139 permits a court to impose an SVRO when it
“is satisfied on the balance of probabilities that a bladed article or offensive weapon was used”
during the offence, or if the offender
“had a bladed article or offensive weapon with them.”
An SVRO may be imposed in response to an incident in which a person did not use an offensive weapon, but
“another person who committed the offence”
had such a weapon on them, and the first person
“ought to have known that this would be the case”.
This means that that power to stop and search someone anywhere at any time can be imposed on a person despite no evidence of their ever handled a weapon before.
The Bar Council says:
“These proposals place onerous obligations on individuals and may generate significant questions of law in regard to liability for the conduct of others. For example, do the proposals impose a duty of care on individuals to ensure that those with whom they commit criminal offences do not carry knives? How this would be determined as a question of law is unknown. Any such measures ought to be subject to consultation or piloted before being brought into force—it would be important to monitor the extent to which any orders made are based on the ‘ought to have known’ test rather than proven use/knowledge of a weapon on the part of the individual made subject to the order.”
Even section 60, which remains controversial, can be used only for a set period of up to 24 hours in a defined area. However, proposed new section 342D provides that an SVRO can be issued for two years and no less than six months. These orders can be renewed indefinitely, during which time they can run continuously, whenever the person is in a public place.
Clause 139 also creates a new offence of breaching an SVRO, for example
“by failing to do anything required by the order, doing anything prohibited by it, or obstructing a police officer in the exercise of any power relating to it. This would carry a maximum sentence of 12 months imprisonment on summary conviction, two years imprisonment on conviction on indictment, and/or a fine in either case.”
Can the Minister provide assurances on how people who question their search, who ask for the legal authority for subjecting them to stop-and-search, or who may not understand the instructions given by a police officer and therefore fail to comply, for whatever reason, will be safeguarded from the offence of breaching an SVRO?
I quote from the written evidence provided by Liberty on clause 139:
“Clause 139 allows the Secretary of State to impose by regulation any ‘requirement or prohibition on the offender for the purpose of assisting constables to exercise the powers conferred’ by the Bill, as long as the court considers it ‘appropriate’. This is remarkably broad. The orders can impose both positive and negative obligations and neither we, nor Parliament, know what they will be, as they will be made in the future by the Secretary of State. This is made more concerning by the lower standard of evidence needed for a court to impose an SVRO.”
The Bill makes it clear that it does not matter whether the evidence considered in deciding whether to make an SVRO would have been admissible in the proceedings in which the offender was convicted. Despite this, a person subject to an SVRO may face criminal penalties if they breach it, even if they breach the yet unknown requirements made by the Secretary of State through regulation.
The Bill would insert proposed new section 342J of the sentencing code, which provides the Secretary of State with the power to issue guidance to the police about the exercise of their function in regards to SVROs. The police must have due regard to this guidance. Statutory guidance on stop-and-search is in code A of the Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984, which is underpinned by a formal scrutiny process, but here we have the publication of separate statutory guidance on SVROs. That is unusual and worrying. PACE code A is not being used as statutory guidance for this incredibly sensitive power.
There is nothing in the Bill about what the guidance will be like or how it will be drawn up and approved. The Bill does not provide the Secretary of the State with the power to issue guidance to other actors in the SVRO process. All relevant persons will be required to have regard to upcoming guidance relating to knife crime prevention orders. A relevant person is defined as one who
“is capable of making an application for a knife crime protection order”;
that, as is set out in section 1.3 of the draft KCPO guidance, includes the police and the Crown Prosecution Service.
Like KCPOs, SVROs will be applied to an offender only when an application for one has been made to the court. Only the prosecuting lawyer can apply to the court for an SVRO to be issued. However, the Bill does not provide the Secretary of State with the powers to issue guidance to the CPS on its function to apply for an SVRO to be attached to an offender’s conviction. Can the Minister say why? It is vital that guidance be published before the pilots of these orders go ahead.
We are all aware of the impact stop-and-search has on police-community relations. These new sweeping powers will be difficult for the police to apply practically on the ground. Once again, the Government are proposing a law that could lead to a lot of challenges for the police. The Government’s response to the consultation on SVROs noted that
“several responses from police forces and officers noted potential challenges around identifying individuals subject to an SVRO”.
That is where the guidance becomes incredibly important, but we do not have the detail yet. These searches will be less intelligence-led and risk increasing the chances of police stopping the wrong person.
A major concern we have with these powers is that they could increase disproportionality. The code of practice for statutory powers of stop-and-search, PACE code A, states:
“Reasonable suspicion can never be supported on the basis of personal factors”,
and notes that police cannot use, alone or in conjunction, as a basis for stop-and search,
“A person’s physical appearance with regard, for example, to any of the ‘relevant protected characteristics’ set out in the Equality Act 2010…or the fact that the person is known to have a previous conviction”.
Does my hon. Friend agree that this is yet more evidence that the Government ought to carry out a full impact equality assessment for the whole Bill, never mind the provisions she is addressing?
My hon. Friend is right. These issues are very difficult and complex, and we have to make sure we get them right, or the impact on our communities will be great.
Black and minority ethnic people were four times more likely to be searched than white people in 2019-20. Black people in particular were nine times more likely to be searched than white people. In September 2020, the Joint Committee on Human Rights heard evidence that an estimated 85% of black people in the UK were not confident that they would be treated the same as a white person by the police. As I am sure most of us with mixed communities have, I have been in primary school assemblies where I have been asked by young boys why it is that they are being stopped and searched. They are even told by their parents to expect these things, and they learn that this is something that happens. We have to address that, stop it, and make sure we do not make it worse through these orders.
HMICFRS says no force fully understands the impact of the use of stop-and-search powers, and no force can satisfactorily explain why ethnic disproportionality persists in search records. Badly targeted stop-and-search serves to reinforce and create the mistrust between those subjected to it and the police. It is clear that the lack of trust and confidence in the police felt by black and minority ethnic people is related to the persistent disparities in stop-and-search rates by ethnicity.
The House of Commons Library says:
“There is no evidence to suggest that BME people are more likely to carry items that officers have powers to search for. Neither is there evidence that suggests they are more likely to be involved in criminality associated with stop and search enforcement…Societal racism and its effects…appears to explain most of the disparity in stop and search rates by ethnicity.”
For a recent Channel 4 documentary, 40 black men who had all experienced stop and search were surveyed. More than half of them had been stopped at least 10 times, and 39 of them had experienced their first stop and search before they turned 18. Three quarters of them had repeatedly been stopped and said that it had negatively affected their mental health. Nearly half of them had previously complained to the police about their treatment, and just three had had their complaints upheld. Jermaine Jenas, who made the documentary, said:
“Take what happened to Jamar, a kid I met, who is respectful and talented. Aged 16, he was walking home from a party when the police stopped him, looking for a young black man reportedly carrying a sword. Jamar was wearing grey jeans, white trainers and a light jacket; the description was of a guy wearing a black tracksuit.
Officers forced him on to his knees in the middle of a road and searched him at gunpoint, a Taser pressed to his neck. Of course, nothing was found. His black friends were handcuffed and held up against a wall; his young white mate walked around filming the whole thing, the police not interested.”
That is a very extreme example, I think we would all say. Like a lot of hon. Members, I have been out with the police when they have done stop and search, and in many cases it is done properly, but we have to watch these things very carefully. During the first lockdown, when the police were much more proactive in going out to try to tackle the crimes, as they had the time to do so—other things were closed, and they had less work—we saw in London a huge increase in stop and search. In itself, that is okay, but London MPs began to see an increase in people coming to us saying that they were being handcuffed as a matter of course at the beginning of the search. We met Cressida Dick and talked about it in Croydon. My local police officers said that something had absolutely happened, and that it was becoming the norm that they were handcuffing people, which they are not supposed to do when they first stop them. The Met is working on that. The IOPC has highlighted it, and the Met has acknowledged it. It is an issue. The point is that people can slip into behaviours that are not right, and we need to keep a really close eye on how stop and search is done.
It is vital that the use of stop and search is monitored properly so that the police can better understand the consequences and reasons for disparities in rates by ethnicity. That is important, and it has been repeatedly raised as a concern by Her Majesty’s inspectorate. In February 2021, it reported that, on average, 17% of force stop and search records were missing ethnicity information. The proportion of search records ranged by force from 2% to 34%. HMICFRS says that the disparity in search rates by ethnicity is likely being underreported as a result, and that no force fully understands the cause. It has repeatedly called on forces to do more to monitor and scrutinise their use of powers.
The Government’s proposed serious violence reduction orders risk further increasing disproportionality in the criminal justice system. Our concern is that they will be pushed through without proper evaluation. Labour wants to ensure that there is a proper consideration of disproportionality before serious violence reduction orders can come into force. The Government should be recording data on the ethnicity of people subject to the orders and analysing the adverse impact of them. They must ensure that all police officers complete the College of Policing training on stop and search before the power can be used in pilot A areas. It is crucial that the pilot is evaluated before any decision to permanently roll out SVROs is taken, and that should include full consultation with the voluntary sector in the communities that are disproportionately represented across the criminal justice system. The courts should have to set out their reasons in writing for issuing an SVRO.
Does the hon. Lady share my concern that neither of the proposed pilots will be held in Wales, given the distinct landscape in Wales after devolution and the fact that it has a much higher proportion of incarceration of black people than England?
The hon. Gentleman makes a very good point. Perhaps the Minister will respond to the point about where the pilots will be and whether there should be one in Wales.
Our amendments seek to make those changes. Amendment 102 would require the Secretary of State to issue guidance on serious violence reduction orders before any pilot could commence. Amendment 103 would ensure that guidance under this clause must include guidance on the intelligence community information and risk factors that are to be considered before an application is made for the imposition of a serious violence reduction order.
I thank the Minister for that response, which gives reassurance on a number of areas. In particular, having the draft guidance before the Lords Committee is very helpful. We can look at it and see what it says, and then the Lords can take a view about whether they will support it. I am also reassured by what the Minister said about the College of Policing training during the pilots, and about the content of the pilot and what it will look at. There is support for lots of the elements that we put in the amendments. We still have serious concerns that the provisions could be problematic and might not tackle violence, which is the point of them. However, with the reassurances that the Minister has given me, I will not seek to divide the Committee. I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clauses 139 and 140 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clause 141
Locations for sexual offender notification
Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.
With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:
Clauses 142 and 143 stand part.
New clause 65—Registered sex offenders: change of name or identity—
“(1) The Secretary of State must commission a review of how registered sex offenders are able to change their name or other aspects of their identity without the knowledge of the police with the intention of subverting the purpose of their registration.
(2) The review must consult persons with expertise in this issue, including—
(a) representatives of police officers responsible for sex offender management,
(b) Her Majesty’s Passport Office, and
(c) the Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency.
(3) The scope of the review must include consideration of resources necessary for the long-term management of the issue of registered sex offenders changing their names or other aspects of their identity.
(4) The review must make recommendations for the long-term management of the issue of registered sex offenders changing their names or other aspects of their identity.
(5) The Secretary of State must report the findings of this review to Parliament within 12 months of the day on which this Act is passed.”
This new clause would ensure that the Secretary of State must publish a review into how registered sex offenders are changing their names or other aspects of their identity and propose solutions for how the government aims to tackle this issue.
I remind the Committee that if the Whip is seeking to adjourn at 1 o’clock, he will not be able to interrupt a speaker, so if we are going to proceed with that, we will need whoever is speaking to finish just before 1 pm so the Whip can do what he might wish to do.