Sajid Javid
Main Page: Sajid Javid (Conservative - Bromsgrove)Sale of Tickets (Sporting and Cultural Events) Bill
Sajid Javid Excerpts(13 years, 9 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text
Mrs Hodgson
As the hon. Gentleman says, we cannot get rid of the secondary market, just as we cannot stop people selling stolen goods, but because legislation says that receiving stolen goods is illegal, the vast majority of the general public do not participate in such activity. Once legislation makes it clear what is allowed and what is an underground activity, public opinion and hearts and minds will change. That will happen with the Olympics tickets and the Bill.
The hon. Gentleman suggested that 10% is not fair, but the tickets for the Olympics will have no mark-up at all. They can be refunded through the Olympics authorities, in which case they will go to a fan on a waiting list and no mark-up will be allowed at all. The Bill recognises that there are sometimes other associated costs, such as postage or credit card fees, which is why it would allow the 10% level, which is what Queensland permits, too. If we were right to do that for the Olympics tickets, I cannot see why it is not the right thing to do for other ticketed events.
Sajid Javid (Bromsgrove) (Con)
I am intrigued to know why the hon. Lady selected 10%, rather than 20%, 30% or 40%.
Mrs Hodgson
We had a long debate about that, and 10% was deemed to be sufficiently small that there would be no profit. The people we are talking about buy huge numbers of tickets, and I am sure that the hon. Gentleman can work out that the bigger the percentage, the more lucrative it is for the number of tickets they buy up. Keeping the percentage small restricts the amount of extra money they can make on top and so removes the incentive for touts to participate in that activity.
I must return to the substance of my speech, if hon. Members will allow me. The Bill also has wide-ranging support from the live entertainment industry. The hon. Member for Hove (Mike Weatherley) and I met several people involved in the business last night. In particular, I spoke to Ron Smallwood—the manger of Iron Maiden, no less—who has been trying to push the matter up the agenda for many years. He said:
“When Iron Maiden tickets went on sale late last year for an extensive arena tour of the UK this coming summer, thousands upon thousands of tickets at much higher average price than face value appeared across these secondary sites within days… Do they really expect us to believe that even a small number of these were bought by people who suddenly—the day after they bought the ticket—found they couldn’t go to a concert some 9 months away?... This is one story of many…it is sheer piracy and must be stopped to protect the real fans and the performers.”
Last night I also met the manager of the Arctic Monkeys, Ian McAndrew—
Mrs Hodgson
No, I am going to carry on.
A large part of the fundraising activities to support the trust’s wonderful work is the running of a series of live entertainment events at the Royal Albert hall, featuring major artists and comedians who give their time for free to support the trust. Last summer, in its 10th year at the Royal Albert hall, it put on nine spectacular gigs featuring Suede, the Who, Noel Gallagher, the Arctic Monkeys, Jimmy Carr and Noel Fielding. As a big fan of talent TV shows, I would particularly have enjoyed seeing JLS, Diana Vickers and Lemar perform on the same night. I see that some Conservative Members are looking confused about some of these names. If they see me afterwards, I will certainly explain any pop culture references that they do not get. I might even be able to put together a compilation CD for them.
All these artists freely give their time—as well as that of their support crew—their energy and their talent to support what they view as a worthy cause, but it is not simply a case of artists giving up a night off. Doing a gig in London lessens demand for any other gigs in London that they might have planned close to that date. It could be that they cannot perform in London again for a few weeks or even months, so their participation is a genuine expression of their desire to help the cause. These big names could easily have done other things to earn money on the night they performed. The very fact that they are involved means that demand for tickets is huge.
Even though the Teenage Cancer Trust knows that demand for its events could allow it to sell the tickets at a higher price, it wants the events to be affordable to the average fan. As at almost all live entertainment events, tickets are sold at a price below what the market will bear, because organisers recognise the fact that the sustainable approach to putting on live events is to allow as many genuine fans as possible—and especially as many young people as possible—to attend. Quite apart from any moral or ethical consideration, that makes good business sense, building a long-lasting relationship with fans, which could not be achieved if they felt that they were being ripped off or could not even begin to get on the first rung of the ladder.
Regular-priced tickets to extraordinary events run by the Teenage Cancer Trust are put on sale with all the standard technological measures in place to combat touts. Like all other big events, they sell out in the space of a morning—sometimes in an hour or two. On the same day, without fail, hundreds of those tickets reappear on secondary websites at massive mark-up prices—well over double their face value.
Mrs Hodgson
No, I am going to carry on.
Assuming that about half the face value of the ticket represents the profit that the Teenage Cancer Trust makes on these events—by profit, I mean, of course, the money that goes to help young cancer sufferers—we can conclude that a tout selling for double the face value is making double the amount that the charity is making. Double face value, of course, is a conservative estimate. That price might be got by buying from a tout outside, part way through the gig, but anyone buying through internet channels either just after the tickets go on sale or just before the gig would be extremely lucky to get one for just double the price. Simon Davies said last night that some of the premium tickets went for four times their face value, meaning that the tout got six times the amount raised by the charity.
Do hon. Members really think that a situation in which private touts can earn more than the charity is satisfactory? Do they really think it right for individuals to be able to exploit the demand created by freely given hard work, the good will of a charity and the selfless giving of artists? I do not, and I would be interested to learn whether any hon. Members can intervene to explain why that is right, other than by just repeating what they have already said, which is, “It’s the free market.”
On that basis alone, I ask any hon. Members who have turned up to talk out the Bill with frivolous and self-indulgent speeches to think again.
Mrs Hodgson
I thank my hon. Friend for raising that point. I did not address it at length, although I did touch on the fact that the Exchequer was not receiving any revenue from this billion-pound industry, apart from a small amount of VAT that some of the exchange sites levy. Every working person in the country has to pay tax through Pay-as-you-earn, but these touts, some of whom are making huge sums of money, are certainly not paying any of it.
Mrs Hodgson
I will not. I suspect that the hon. Gentleman might want to say, “Therefore, we should regulate touting and get these people to offer to pay pay-as-you-earn on their income.”
Mrs Hodgson
I will give way to the hon. Gentleman, in order to hear what he has to say.
Sajid Javid
I thank the hon. Lady for being so generous with her time and giving way for a second time. First, I want to say that this is the first Friday on which I have turned up. I am not going to make a habit of it, but I am very glad that I am present today, because the hon. Lady has made this a very exciting afternoon, whereas I was a bit worried that I might have been bored.
I want to say what my constituents might think of this proposal. I think they would believe that if they have genuinely and honestly come by a ticket and they wish to sell it, Government should impose no restrictions on what price they can sell it for, and on how they can sell it.
Mrs Hodgson
Well, such restrictions are law of this land now; that is what will happen for Olympics tickets. Someone who buys an Olympics ticket will not be able to sell it on for however much they choose, even though it is theirs. The Government have decided that those are premium tickets which are so desirable that they cannot just go to the highest bidder, and that instead they must be redistributed. A precedent has already been set, therefore.
Sajid Javid
I am confused about the hon. Gentleman’s position. He started by supporting the Bill, or implying that he supports it.
Sajid Javid
Perhaps not, but the hon. Gentleman can correct me. He talks about free and fair markets, but he cannot support a Bill providing for a maximum 10% premium on resale and at the same time support free and fair markets. For the record, can he tell us the view of the official Opposition? Do they support the Bill or not?
Ian Austin
The hon. Gentleman has obviously not been listening. I said that I completely understand why my hon. Friend the Member for Washington and Sunderland West introduced the Bill. I believe in open, free and fair competition. I want ordinary fans to have proper access to the markets. There is clear evidence of abuse, with suggestions of organised criminal activity, people printing fake tickets and the rest. I am interested in looking at measures that could best deal with such things, opening up markets and ensuring free and fair access for ordinary fans. As I said, my hon. Friend’s proposals might do that, but there are strong views out there, so we should listen to all the experts and take a view. However, the hon. Gentleman and his colleagues are trying to prevent that debate by talking the Bill out.
Sajid Javid
With respect, I am not talking anything out, I am debating.
The hon. Gentleman is not making any sense. It is not clear what he thinks. Presumably, he had time to consider the Bill before coming to the House today. Does he support it or not? The question is straightforward. Hopefully, he can give a straightforward answer.
Ian Austin
I support the Bill going into Committee so that it can be examined in detail and we can find solutions to the problems identified by my hon. Friend. That is pretty clear from the three times that I said it.
I am interested in whether registration or membership schemes—selling tickets through clubs—can promote access for ordinary fans. I am interested in how new technology can facilitate the sale or resale of tickets free from fraud and illegitimate or illegal ticket touts. I want to explore how safety and security can be enhanced to tackle people who rip fans off through ticket fraud or online scams—selling tickets they do not have, printing fake tickets or claiming that a ticket is for a seat at the front when it is actually right at the back.
I urge the Government to allow the Bill into Committee, so that we can discuss it, examine the detail, listen to all the experts in sport and the arts, talk to people in the ticket trade and look at how new technology can promote safety and security. As I said, there might be other ways of tackling the problems and safeguarding access to live entertainment and sport.
Times are tough now for ordinary, hard-pressed working families. We have a good case for seeing how we can open up the market and ensure that exciting and enjoyable events are not taken out of the reach of ordinary people. I pay tribute to the extraordinary campaigning energy of my hon. Friend and wish the Bill fair passage to Report. The system is clearly not perfect. The market should be opened up and any illegal or criminal involvement should be tackled.
Sajid Javid (Bromsgrove) (Con)
I congratulate the hon. Member for Washington and Sunderland West (Mrs Hodgson) on bringing the Bill forward. She has raised important issues that are worthy of discussion in the House. My understanding, although I may be corrected, is that the issue has come up before through private Members’ Bills in previous Parliaments. However, in the interests of a full debate, it would be good to make a robust argument against what she proposes.
The Bill is flawed, in that it really does not understand the most basic laws of supply and demand. I do not think that one can buck the free market, or that it is the role of Government to get involved in free transactions. Let me make it clear that the issue is not about fraudulent transactions or criminal activity; as my hon. Friend the Member for Shipley (Philip Davies) said earlier, such activity is already illegal. This is about people legitimately getting hold of tickets in an honest way, and not prohibiting them from trying to sell those tickets at a profit, whatever that profit might be. In fact, such activity is probably an excellent example of the enterprise culture and of what a classic entrepreneur does, as long as—I emphasise this point—they get the tickets legitimately.
Ian Austin
Does the hon. Gentleman think that there are any problems associated with the secondary market at the moment? Can he guarantee that there is no involvement in criminal activity or fraud, and no online scams? If he cannot guarantee that, does he think that any consideration should be given to dealing with those problems?
Sajid Javid
I thank the hon. Gentleman for that intervention. Of course I cannot guarantee that; no one can guarantee that any market is free from criminal activity. The Bill will do nothing to stop criminal or fraudulent activity, because even if one put restrictions on sale prices and made certain practices illegal, it would not mean that any criminal or fraudulent activity going on at the moment would stop.
Sajid Javid
I will in a moment, but I shall just finish answering the hon. Gentleman’s point.
Philip Davies
The hon. Member for Dudley North (Ian Austin) is trying to talk the Bill out.
Sajid Javid
Yes, and we should not do that. The hon. Member for Dudley North (Ian Austin) has had ample time in which to speak. The point that he is missing—this is why I was confused by the speech that he gave from the Opposition Front Bench—is that if the concern is about criminal and fraudulent activity, and activity that is clearly wrong, there are already laws in place for that. If those laws are not strong enough, or Members think that changes should be made to them, that is a completely different argument from what is being proposed today. One of the key proposals in the Bill is to limit the resale price in the secondary market at a premium of only 10% of face value.
Mrs Hodgson
Does the hon. Gentleman not recognise that limiting the price at which a ticket can be resold will remove the incentive for people to buy huge numbers of tickets, and will remove the large amount of profit in, and the size of, the secondary market? There is nothing wrong with reselling tickets, but we are trying to limit the amount of profit that can be made. Also, does he not recognise that no income tax is paid on any of those earnings by the entrepreneurs he talks of?
Sajid Javid
The hon. Lady seems to suggest that anyone who earns a profit over a certain margin must be engaged in some kind of criminal or fraudulent activity, and that is clearly not the case. I hope that she accepts that, as has been mentioned, many ticket touts—perhaps the vast majority—are legitimate, have got the tickets in an honest way, and are not engaged in any kind of criminal or illegitimate activity at all.
Jacob Rees-Mogg
I wonder whether my hon. Friend might cast his mind over the issue of people buying up large numbers of tickets. Is that not actually enormously to the advantage of promoters of events, who are guaranteed a certain number of sales—the tickets may not be sold on subsequently—and get their cash flow early on? It is not simply a case of the practice disadvantaging the personal shopper.
Sajid Javid
My hon. Friend makes a fair point. In some cases, that can be advantageous, but I accept that where there is clearly very high demand, there are sometimes good reasons to restrict the number of tickets that an individual can buy.
Mike Weatherley
Does my hon. Friend agree that the people who should be making that judgment are the music promoters and managers, who almost unanimously say that the point made earlier by my hon. Friend the Member for Shipley (Philip Davies) is totally inappropriate, and that they do not like that way of selling? They prefer to sell directly to the fans, rather than to those intermediaries who distort the market for the type of person they want to come to the concert.
Sajid Javid
It is a varied market, and different promoters and creative acts will wish to sell their tickets in different ways. It could well be the case that they do not like selling tickets in bulk—that is their choice; no one is forcing them to do so—and if they wish to sell individual buyers a maximum of two or three a time, that is their choice. Equally, the price at which tickets are sold is their choice, and if a company or creative act is genuinely concerned about that, they always have the option to increase or reduce the price. That is how the free market operates.
Mike Weatherley
Is that not exactly the point? The copyright holder themselves can make that judgment. Many promoters restrict ticket sales to four or six at a time, only to find that 100 are on display through the software programmes that the hon. Member for Washington and Sunderland West (Mrs Hodgson) mentioned and that offer multiple ticket buying in different formats. If the promoter wants to offer a maximum of six to an individual, he should be allowed to do so.
Sajid Javid
I take the point that my hon. Friend is making, but I have already answered that question.
Ticket resellers act like classic entrepreneurs, because they fill a gap in the market that they have identified. They provide a service that can help people who did not obtain a supply of tickets in the original sale to purchase them for sporting and cultural events. As long as those tickets have been acquired genuinely and lawfully, it is an honest transaction, and there should be no Government restriction on someone’s ability to sell them.
Ian Austin
I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for giving way again. Given that he was unable to guarantee that nothing could be done to improve the primary or secondary markets, will he guarantee that he will not talk out the Bill, so that it can go into Committee and these issues can be discussed properly by Members on both sides of the House?
Sajid Javid
I did not say that there could not be any improvements in the system. I have no intention of talking out the Bill, but I cannot guarantee the intentions of other hon. Members.
The hon. Member for Washington and Sunderland West referred several times to real or genuine fans, and to the fact that they cannot buy tickets because they are priced out of the market. She referred, too, to speculators. I do not understand what she meant by that, as I shall explain, and perhaps she will be able to clarify what she was implying. Her argument sounded far more anti-capitalist than anti-tout.
Let me explain by way of the example of a Wimbledon final. Only 10,000 tickets are available, but demand is three times as high—30,000 people want a ticket, which is not atypical by any means. If the tickets are priced at £20 a head and are sold in a secondary market at five times face value at £100 a head, who is being exploited and how? I assume that the hon. Lady would say that the ticket tout is exploiting people in that example by making a profit of £80.
Perhaps that could be avoided if the club priced the tickets at the outset so that there was not a mismatch between supply and demand by selling them, for example, at £100. If that is what the hon. Lady is suggesting, the corporation or company behind the club or event would make the extra profit. I would have thought that, as a socialist—I assume that she is a socialist—she would welcome the small man or the honest ticket tout who has bought their tickets legitimately and offers them for sale, making a profit for themselves, as opposed to the corporation making those profits.
Let me use a personal example. I was brought up in a part of Bristol called Bedminster. It is a working-class neighbourhood and, as a child, I lived near the Bristol City football ground. Many times at weekends I would pass the ground and see ticket touts trying to sell tickets. I would hear them offering their tickets, sometimes at prices that were multiples of the face value. Many of the touts were ordinary hard-working people. One may not have liked the look of some of them, and they may have seemed unsavoury to some people, but they were ordinary people providing a service in a legitimate way. I would rather be on their side than on the side of the large corporations.
Mrs Hodgson
The hon. Gentleman is talking about those salt of the earth-type individuals selling on tickets and doing a hard day’s graft for their little reward, but are they paying any income tax like the rest of us? Is he condoning black market activity? Does he think it is right for those salt of the earth types to stand outside selling tickets at Bristol or wherever, at mark-ups that my hon. Friend the Member for Dudley North (Ian Austin) considers rather high, and without paying any tax on that, unlike the rest of us?
Sajid Javid
I think the hon. Lady will find that most secondary market sales, such as those on eBay, are exempt from income tax and other such charges. If that is her concern, there is no reason to single out tickets, as opposed to other items that might go on sale in the secondary market. Although she described ticket touts as the salt of the earth, that is not a phrase that I used. I am not suggesting that some of those characters might not look unsavoury or that they might not have a tattoo on their head, for example, but that does not matter. As long as they have tickets that they acquired legitimately and they wish to sell them at a price that is higher than the face value, the Government have no responsibility to intervene.
The interests that the hon. Lady is representing are probably those of the chattering middle classes and champagne socialists, who have no interest in helping the common working man earn a decent living by acting as a middleman in the sale of a proper service.
Ian Austin
Setting to one side the ludicrous fantasy that tickets at Bristol City have ever gone at many times their face value, which is a total invention, the hon. Gentleman’s point is interesting. If he is saying that ticket touting ought to be allowed at football games, how could he prevent the admission of people who are subject to banning orders for causing trouble at football, how could he ensure the proper segregation of fans, and how could he guarantee public order in the grounds? He ought to be aware that ticket touting at football is illegal for precisely those public order reasons, as I am sure the Minister will confirm. Has he discussed with the police his desire for ticket touting to be allowed at football, and sought their advice?
Sajid Javid
I am sure the hon. Gentleman is aware of the current rules and regulations surrounding the issue. We are debating a Bill that seeks to change those rules and regulations. Perhaps it would be easier if I explained the role of a middleman using an example that is not as sensitive as that of tickets.
The hon. Gentleman may have sold one of his used cars in the past. If he wanted to sell a car, he could try and sell it himself, but most people would try to find a middleman to help with the process. They might go to a car dealer. Their car might be sold for £1,000 to a car dealer. If they learned that the car dealer who purchased their car and helped them went on to sell it a few days later for £1,500, they would not say that the car dealer had ripped them off by £500, because he had provided a service. A middleman in a ticket transaction provides a service no different from that, as long as—I stress this—he had acquired the tickets honestly. That is why we have a secondary market in the sale of tickets and will continue to do so. So long as the individual involved in secondary market transactions has acquired the tickets legitimately, they are providing a service that deserves to be rewarded.
The hon. Lady should understand, as has not been made clear today, that not everyone has the time to queue for a ticket, or leads a well-regulated life or knows months in advance, when tickets might go on sale, whether they can attend an event, and not everyone knows privileged insiders who can get hold of tickets that would otherwise be difficult to obtain. However, everyone, to a greater or lesser extent, has money. If a person wishes to devote a large part of their disposable income to see something that is disproportionately attractive to them, why should anyone else care and why should it be their business?
The hon. Lady seems to believe that touts are ruthless exploiters whom no one in civilised society should countenance. Nothing could be further from the truth. If the tout has come by his tickets in an honest way and offers a genuine service with a real risk of loss in the pursuit of profit, that is not a problem. As someone who believes passionately in the virtues of the free market and who is on the side of the ordinary, common working man, I respectfully oppose the Bill.