Sale of Tickets (Sporting and Cultural Events) Bill

Lord Austin of Dudley Excerpts

Friday 21st January 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mrs Hodgson]

The charity decides on the price based on the genuine, ordinary fans whom it wishes to attract. It is often aware that the price is sometimes below the market value, but the reason is that it does not want to attract only people who can afford to pay £106. It wants to attract a broad cross-section of people. It does not just want elite people in the audiences at such events. I will give further examples in due course.

[Ian Austin (Dudley North) (Lab)]

Does my hon. Friend share my surprise that Government Members support a system that excludes their constituents from having access to a free and open market, in which they can compete with other people to have proper access to tickets? Why does she think that they are in favour of their constituents not being able to buy tickets when they first go on sale?

[Mrs Hodgson]

That is an interesting point. Government Members have a lot of good arguments on the free market, but with regard to charity tickets, none of those arguments hold up. They should want such access for all their constituents, not just the ones who can afford to pay premium prices.

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[Mrs Hodgson]

I contest that point, because the reverse is true. That body would have released tickets to clubs throughout the country, and they are full of genuine fans—and full of genuine fans who participate in the sport. So that does give people the chance to access tickets and gives kids who play the sport the chance to watch their heroes, without the tickets going on to the open market, where the touts buy them up and sell them on to the highest bidder.

[Ian Austin]

Is my hon. Friend as perplexed as I am why Government Members would rather see touts buy up tickets in bulk, excluding ordinary fans from the market, than see those tickets available to ordinary fans through clubs? Is that not bizarre?

[Mrs Hodgson]

It is bizarre—but not surprising. I know that not all Government Members will agree, and if any who do not would like to intervene I shall be more than happy to give way.

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[Ian Austin (Dudley North) (Lab)]

I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Washington and Sunderland West (Mrs Hodgson). She is a brilliant MP and a formidable campaigner. I remember her relentless and successful campaign to pilot and promote free school meals to all children. Now she has ticket touts in her sight. If I were them, I would be very afraid. I completely understand why she has introduced the Bill. She is in touch with the people whom she represents. She understands ordinary people’s worries. She has listened to the concerns of ordinary sports and music fans who want to get a fair crack of the whip when buying tickets to watch the bands whom they love or the teams whom they support. As she said, every parent knows just how keen their kids are to see their favourite groups or watch their sporting heroes, but they are being priced out of the market by people who make mass purchases and exclude ordinary fans. For that reason, we should look very closely at what she proposes.

It is fair to say that many organisations in sport and the arts—as well as charities such as Teenage Cancer Trust, to which my hon. Friend has referred—are concerned about this issue. Many governing bodies have told me that they want proposals that will ensure ordinary grass-roots fans have access to tickets. I, too, want to ensure that ordinary fans have access to the primary market and that tickets are not bought up in huge numbers the minute they go on sale by organised gangs in the way that she described. I believe in open, free and fair competition. I want free access to fair markets. Free markets are underpinned by open access and fair competition. It is particularly important to ensure that any suggestion of organised criminals being involved and any question of links to the funding of criminal activity or laundering money for criminal operations are investigated and prevented immediately.

[Philip Davies]

On fair access, may I give the hon. Gentleman a scenario to find out what he makes of it? I might really want to see an event, but am unsure whether I can do so because of my work or family commitments. By the time I have sorted them out and rung up, the event might be booked up because it has sold out in a flash. Does he not recognise that, as a true fan, my only possible opportunity to go to that event would be provided by some form of ticket tout? If no ticket touts were available, I would be excluded from that event. They might charge a price that I do not want to pay—that is my choice, and I can make that decision—but they are helping genuine fans who have other commitments when tickets go on sale to buy them.

[Ian Austin]

I understand that, like me, the hon. Gentleman was educated in Dudley, but given the nonsense that he is speaking today, he wasted his time there. The Bill would not eradicate the secondary market. It would not prevent tickets from being sold on; it would simply limit the price. That might or might not be the right thing to do, but is he saying that the secondary market is perfect and that he can guarantee that there is absolutely no abuse, fraud, illegality or criminal behaviour? Is he saying, for example, that no one prints fake tickets, which cause all sorts of problems?

Such issues should be considered, but the hon. Gentleman and his colleagues, with their juvenile antics—the usual nonsense and behaviour that bring the House into disrepute every Friday—are preventing them from being examined. My hon. Friend’s proposals might not be the right ones, but we should consider them in Committee. We should examine the Bill, listen to all the experts and take appropriate measures, but the hon. Gentleman is preventing that from happening.

[Philip Davies]

I am rather surprised at the hon. Gentleman’s fake outrage, because I posed a perfectly legitimate question. Most people watching would conclude that his reaction was juvenile. He talked about fake tickets being printed, but surely someone in his position would accept that such fraud is already illegal. If he is not aware of that, I worry for him in his new position.

[Ian Austin]

Of course such things are illegal, but they are happening. We should examine—[Interruption.] New technology and all sorts of things change markets all the time. We should not say that we are not prepared to look at the issues to see whether changes ought to be introduced—whether regulation might work—to make the markets operate more effectively and give ordinary fans greater access to them. The hon. Gentleman is trying to prevent that by talking the Bill out. That is a disgrace and he should be ashamed of himself.

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[Sajid Javid]

Perhaps not, but the hon. Gentleman can correct me. He talks about free and fair markets, but he cannot support a Bill providing for a maximum 10% premium on resale and at the same time support free and fair markets. For the record, can he tell us the view of the official Opposition? Do they support the Bill or not?

[Ian Austin]

The hon. Gentleman has obviously not been listening. I said that I completely understand why my hon. Friend the Member for Washington and Sunderland West introduced the Bill. I believe in open, free and fair competition. I want ordinary fans to have proper access to the markets. There is clear evidence of abuse, with suggestions of organised criminal activity, people printing fake tickets and the rest. I am interested in looking at measures that could best deal with such things, opening up markets and ensuring free and fair access for ordinary fans. As I said, my hon. Friend’s proposals might do that, but there are strong views out there, so we should listen to all the experts and take a view. However, the hon. Gentleman and his colleagues are trying to prevent that debate by talking the Bill out.

[Sajid Javid]

With respect, I am not talking anything out, I am debating.

The hon. Gentleman is not making any sense. It is not clear what he thinks. Presumably, he had time to consider the Bill before coming to the House today. Does he support it or not? The question is straightforward. Hopefully, he can give a straightforward answer.

[Ian Austin]

I support the Bill going into Committee so that it can be examined in detail and we can find solutions to the problems identified by my hon. Friend. That is pretty clear from the three times that I said it.

I am interested in whether registration or membership schemes—selling tickets through clubs—can promote access for ordinary fans. I am interested in how new technology can facilitate the sale or resale of tickets free from fraud and illegitimate or illegal ticket touts. I want to explore how safety and security can be enhanced to tackle people who rip fans off through ticket fraud or online scams—selling tickets they do not have, printing fake tickets or claiming that a ticket is for a seat at the front when it is actually right at the back.

I urge the Government to allow the Bill into Committee, so that we can discuss it, examine the detail, listen to all the experts in sport and the arts, talk to people in the ticket trade and look at how new technology can promote safety and security. As I said, there might be other ways of tackling the problems and safeguarding access to live entertainment and sport.

Times are tough now for ordinary, hard-pressed working families. We have a good case for seeing how we can open up the market and ensure that exciting and enjoyable events are not taken out of the reach of ordinary people. I pay tribute to the extraordinary campaigning energy of my hon. Friend and wish the Bill fair passage to Report. The system is clearly not perfect. The market should be opened up and any illegal or criminal involvement should be tackled.

[Sajid Javid (Bromsgrove) (Con)]

I congratulate the hon. Member for Washington and Sunderland West (Mrs Hodgson) on bringing the Bill forward. She has raised important issues that are worthy of discussion in the House. My understanding, although I may be corrected, is that the issue has come up before through private Members’ Bills in previous Parliaments. However, in the interests of a full debate, it would be good to make a robust argument against what she proposes.

The Bill is flawed, in that it really does not understand the most basic laws of supply and demand. I do not think that one can buck the free market, or that it is the role of Government to get involved in free transactions. Let me make it clear that the issue is not about fraudulent transactions or criminal activity; as my hon. Friend the Member for Shipley (Philip Davies) said earlier, such activity is already illegal. This is about people legitimately getting hold of tickets in an honest way, and not prohibiting them from trying to sell those tickets at a profit, whatever that profit might be. In fact, such activity is probably an excellent example of the enterprise culture and of what a classic entrepreneur does, as long as—I emphasise this point—they get the tickets legitimately.

[Ian Austin]

Does the hon. Gentleman think that there are any problems associated with the secondary market at the moment? Can he guarantee that there is no involvement in criminal activity or fraud, and no online scams? If he cannot guarantee that, does he think that any consideration should be given to dealing with those problems?

[Sajid Javid]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for that intervention. Of course I cannot guarantee that; no one can guarantee that any market is free from criminal activity. The Bill will do nothing to stop criminal or fraudulent activity, because even if one put restrictions on sale prices and made certain practices illegal, it would not mean that any criminal or fraudulent activity going on at the moment would stop.

[Ian Austin]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Sajid Javid]

I will in a moment, but I shall just finish answering the hon. Gentleman’s point.

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[Sajid Javid]

I take the point that my hon. Friend is making, but I have already answered that question.

Ticket resellers act like classic entrepreneurs, because they fill a gap in the market that they have identified. They provide a service that can help people who did not obtain a supply of tickets in the original sale to purchase them for sporting and cultural events. As long as those tickets have been acquired genuinely and lawfully, it is an honest transaction, and there should be no Government restriction on someone’s ability to sell them.

[Ian Austin]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for giving way again. Given that he was unable to guarantee that nothing could be done to improve the primary or secondary markets, will he guarantee that he will not talk out the Bill, so that it can go into Committee and these issues can be discussed properly by Members on both sides of the House?

[Sajid Javid]

I did not say that there could not be any improvements in the system. I have no intention of talking out the Bill, but I cannot guarantee the intentions of other hon. Members.

The hon. Member for Washington and Sunderland West referred several times to real or genuine fans, and to the fact that they cannot buy tickets because they are priced out of the market. She referred, too, to speculators. I do not understand what she meant by that, as I shall explain, and perhaps she will be able to clarify what she was implying. Her argument sounded far more anti-capitalist than anti-tout.

Let me explain by way of the example of a Wimbledon final. Only 10,000 tickets are available, but demand is three times as high—30,000 people want a ticket, which is not atypical by any means. If the tickets are priced at £20 a head and are sold in a secondary market at five times face value at £100 a head, who is being exploited and how? I assume that the hon. Lady would say that the ticket tout is exploiting people in that example by making a profit of £80.

Perhaps that could be avoided if the club priced the tickets at the outset so that there was not a mismatch between supply and demand by selling them, for example, at £100. If that is what the hon. Lady is suggesting, the corporation or company behind the club or event would make the extra profit. I would have thought that, as a socialist—I assume that she is a socialist—she would welcome the small man or the honest ticket tout who has bought their tickets legitimately and offers them for sale, making a profit for themselves, as opposed to the corporation making those profits.

Let me use a personal example. I was brought up in a part of Bristol called Bedminster. It is a working-class neighbourhood and, as a child, I lived near the Bristol City football ground. Many times at weekends I would pass the ground and see ticket touts trying to sell tickets. I would hear them offering their tickets, sometimes at prices that were multiples of the face value. Many of the touts were ordinary hard-working people. One may not have liked the look of some of them, and they may have seemed unsavoury to some people, but they were ordinary people providing a service in a legitimate way. I would rather be on their side than on the side of the large corporations.

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[Sajid Javid]

I think the hon. Lady will find that most secondary market sales, such as those on eBay, are exempt from income tax and other such charges. If that is her concern, there is no reason to single out tickets, as opposed to other items that might go on sale in the secondary market. Although she described ticket touts as the salt of the earth, that is not a phrase that I used. I am not suggesting that some of those characters might not look unsavoury or that they might not have a tattoo on their head, for example, but that does not matter. As long as they have tickets that they acquired legitimately and they wish to sell them at a price that is higher than the face value, the Government have no responsibility to intervene.

The interests that the hon. Lady is representing are probably those of the chattering middle classes and champagne socialists, who have no interest in helping the common working man earn a decent living by acting as a middleman in the sale of a proper service.

[Ian Austin]

Setting to one side the ludicrous fantasy that tickets at Bristol City have ever gone at many times their face value, which is a total invention, the hon. Gentleman’s point is interesting. If he is saying that ticket touting ought to be allowed at football games, how could he prevent the admission of people who are subject to banning orders for causing trouble at football, how could he ensure the proper segregation of fans, and how could he guarantee public order in the grounds? He ought to be aware that ticket touting at football is illegal for precisely those public order reasons, as I am sure the Minister will confirm. Has he discussed with the police his desire for ticket touting to be allowed at football, and sought their advice?

[Sajid Javid]

I am sure the hon. Gentleman is aware of the current rules and regulations surrounding the issue. We are debating a Bill that seeks to change those rules and regulations. Perhaps it would be easier if I explained the role of a middleman using an example that is not as sensitive as that of tickets.

The hon. Gentleman may have sold one of his used cars in the past. If he wanted to sell a car, he could try and sell it himself, but most people would try to find a middleman to help with the process. They might go to a car dealer. Their car might be sold for £1,000 to a car dealer. If they learned that the car dealer who purchased their car and helped them went on to sell it a few days later for £1,500, they would not say that the car dealer had ripped them off by £500, because he had provided a service. A middleman in a ticket transaction provides a service no different from that, as long as—I stress this—he had acquired the tickets honestly. That is why we have a secondary market in the sale of tickets and will continue to do so. So long as the individual involved in secondary market transactions has acquired the tickets legitimately, they are providing a service that deserves to be rewarded.

The hon. Lady should understand, as has not been made clear today, that not everyone has the time to queue for a ticket, or leads a well-regulated life or knows months in advance, when tickets might go on sale, whether they can attend an event, and not everyone knows privileged insiders who can get hold of tickets that would otherwise be difficult to obtain. However, everyone, to a greater or lesser extent, has money. If a person wishes to devote a large part of their disposable income to see something that is disproportionately attractive to them, why should anyone else care and why should it be their business?

The hon. Lady seems to believe that touts are ruthless exploiters whom no one in civilised society should countenance. Nothing could be further from the truth. If the tout has come by his tickets in an honest way and offers a genuine service with a real risk of loss in the pursuit of profit, that is not a problem. As someone who believes passionately in the virtues of the free market and who is on the side of the ordinary, common working man, I respectfully oppose the Bill.

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[Philip Davies]

My hon. Friend spotted that, too, but the situation is beyond my control. If you, Madam Deputy Speaker, tell me—not for the first time—that I have to conclude my remarks, I shall accept your ruling with the good grace that I always show.

[Ian Austin]

I can assure the hon. Gentleman that new Labour is not dead. I said I believed in free markets, open competition and fair access for ordinary people. I want to ensure that the organised bulk-buying of tickets which excludes ordinary fans is prevented, so that ordinary people get a fair crack of the whip when it comes to buying tickets. When he thinks about it, he will find that that is a more free-market approach than his. It is the Opposition who are standing up for open access, competitive markets and free competition. If he believes that there are no problems at all with secondary markets, fair enough; but surely he can see that there must be some ways of improving them. My hon. Friend’s proposal might not be the best way of doing so, but I simply say that we should get the Bill into Committee so we can debate it.

[Philip Davies]

That is a perfectly fair point, but the hon. Gentleman did not manage to persuade his Government to adopt that approach when they were in office, as they killed the Bill when it last came up, so I am not entirely sure why anybody who is against it now should be considered a tyrant, because his Government killed exactly the same Bill in the previous Parliament.

New Labour clearly is not dead, because the hon. Gentleman seems to think that just by asserting something, it is therefore true: so if he says that he believes in the free market, it is therefore sufficient proof that the Labour party believes in the free market. I take a rather different view: I think our policies have to reflect our assertions. We cannot just say, “I believe in the free market” and then pass laws that completely fly in the face of the free market. I ask him for some consistency, so that his lofty words about believing in the free market might be followed up by action and policies that support them. I am afraid, however, that I cannot see any of that happening.

Mr Deputy Speaker, you are in a privileged position in this debate, because you were also on the Culture, Media and Sport Committee with me when we considered this matter two or three years ago. We conducted an interesting inquiry. The hon. Lady was absolutely right: not only did we find the secondary market to be perfectly legitimate, but her Government found exactly the same. She did not mention this point, but she will also be aware that the Office of Fair Trading has always made it clear that the secondary market for tickets is not only not a bad thing but actively works in the consumer’s favour.

That brings me to my hon. Friend the Member for Hove (Mike Weatherley), who says that the people who own the rights to an event—the promoters or, in his words, the holders of the intellectual property—should be free to determine such matters. That is a perfectly legitimate and respectable view to hold, but I do not agree. I was encouraged, nevertheless, as he said he was not really taking the consumer’s interests into consideration. They did not matter; what mattered was the intellectual property holder. That is a perfectly respectable view, but I do not agree. I think that the public—the consumers—are an important part of the process.

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[Philip Davies]

If my hon. Friend does not mind my saying so, he states the obvious. Obviously, if the market would guarantee a higher price for the tickets and the promoters were to sell them at a higher price, they would make more money. My point, however, is that that is their choice. If a promoter has 50,000 tickets to an event and chooses for one reason or another to sell them at £20 per ticket, their ambition is to bring in £1 million from the sale of those tickets. Rather than ticket touts causing a problem for the promoters, I assert that they are helping, because the more tickets they buy, the more likely the promoters are to sell the amount of tickets required for them to raise the sum of money for which they have budgeted. The ticket tout is therefore helping the promoters reach their targets. If there is no ticket touting, the promoter is not going to bring in more than £1 million; the tickets will still all be sold for £20 each. That is the only income the promoters are going to get, so they are certainly not losing out.

[Ian Austin]

I would like the hon. Gentleman to address the central question; it has not yet been dealt with. Is it fair that individuals are excluded from the market because cartels buy up the tickets in bulk and then rig the price? That is not a free market. Is the hon. Gentleman saying that that is fair? If he agrees that it may not be fair, and that it may need to be looked at, why is he not going to help get this Bill into Committee?

[Philip Davies]

I do not accept the hon. Gentleman’s assertion that ticket touts prevent people from accessing tickets. I would make the opposite point. Tickets for an event might sell out in five seconds flat, before a genuine fan has the chance to realise they were on sale or before they could check whether they could get time off work or child care. If they later realise that they can go to the event and there were no ticket touting, they would have no chance of going to the event. The only mechanism that enables them to have a chance to go to the event is the secondary market. It may well be that the price the secondary market charges is more than the person is prepared to pay, but that is their choice. If the ticket touts were not there to offer their services, that person would not even have that choice in the first place. It is therefore my assertion that ticket touting gives the genuine fan more access, rather than restricts it.

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[Ian Austin]

I am not arguing with the points the hon. Gentleman makes about the secondary market. I am simply asking him this: is it right that people should be able to use technology to buy up all the tickets right at the outset, prevent anybody else from having a fair crack of the whip, and then fix the price? That is not a free-market solution.

[Philip Davies]

I am not aware that the hon. Gentleman in his speech or the hon. Member for Washington and Sunderland West (Mrs Hodgson) in her Bill advocate that these provisions should be limited to people who buy huge quantities of tickets over a website. This is a principled point about people selling tickets at more than a 10% mark-up, however they come by them.

I always thought that the Labour party believed in the redistribution of wealth from rich people to poor people. I thought that was the way they wanted to go. I am therefore a bit flummoxed by what has been said. A constituent of mine who has not got a great deal of money but is a great fan of cricket might buy a ticket to the cricket world cup final for, let us say, £25. They then go to the pub where a fellow says, “Do you know what? My lifetime ambition is to go to the cricket world cup final but I cannot get a ticket as they have sold out. I am so keen, I would give £3,000 to get a ticket.” My constituent might then think, “£3,000 for this ticket! All my Christmases have come at once. This fellow has obviously got far more money than he knows what to do with if he is prepared to pay £3,000 for my ticket.” That would be an example of great redistribution of wealth from rich people to poor people. The richer people are giving the money to the poorer people for a commodity that they want to sell. I would have thought that Labour Members would be all for that kind of redistribution of wealth. What on earth has happened to them? They have given up being new Labour, and now they have given up being old Labour.