IR35 Tax Reforms

Debate between Ruth Cadbury and Drew Hendry

Thursday 4th April 2019 Westminster Hall

[Drew Hendry (Inverness, Nairn, Badenoch and Strathspey) (SNP)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Gapes, even though it looks as though that will be brief. I congratulate the hon. Member for Rutherglen and Hamilton West (Ged Killen) on securing the debate. Those of us in the Chamber today share common ground on the problems of IR35. The hon. Gentleman said that we all wanted to see what was due to be collected in taxes being collected to pay for the services from which we all benefit. That is an important point to bear in mind, and we share that view, but that is not to take away from the difficulties that have been presented in the Chamber so eloquently today.

The hon. Gentleman referred to the Taylor review and the need to get the recommendations in play with some speed, and to the conflict between agencies and contractors. He also made a good point, on which we need to reflect, about our future relationship with the EU—the crisis that we currently face over EU membership. That should be food for thought for Ministers in relation to a possible delay to the further roll-out of IR35. The hon. Gentleman talked about his constituent and mentioned that large companies often have sophisticated tax systems and resources that are not available to those who are often affected.

[Sir David Amess in the Chair]

The hon. Member for Brentford and Isleworth (Ruth Cadbury) talked about the unintended consequences of IR35, moving on to the loan charge, which I will touch on in a few moments, and in particular the confusion in the NHS and other public bodies. She mentioned those working flexibly with the NHS to meets its needs. Another point that I agreed with was that the effect of rolling IR35 into Brexit is to increase the unattractiveness of going into such jobs and accelerate chronic staff shortages by trying to force into the PAYE system people who do not want to be in it.

The hon. Member for Clwyd South (Susan Elan Jones) also talked about public sector damage, but she reflected on it in terms of IR35 being applied to the private sector. She expressed concerns that this was the wrong time, given Brexit as well as IR35. She quoted her constituents’ worries about additional costs, shrinking talent pools, legal challenges, investment losses and the expenses incurred. She mentioned the impact on IT businesses specifically, which is to make some unviable or unable to operate at all.

The hon. Member for Glasgow North East (Mr Sweeney) talked about how, when IR35 was introduced, the issues around it became relevant and very present, showing up as a genuine concern for many people. He highlighted the real extra costs to businesses and, as was said earlier, the number of IR35 court cases lost by HMRC. The Government must reflect on that when they look at this. The hon. Gentleman also rightly talked about the lack of advice, warning or assistance from HMRC, moving on to the risk of the penalties incurred and of further extension of IR35 making it even less attractive to do business throughout the UK, especially in current circumstances.

The SNP has expressed concerns about the extension of IR35 since it was proposed in 2017. The UK Government must pay close attention to their own technical review and rule out extending IR35 rules until contractors’ concerns have been addressed. HMRC has been described as using a hammer to crack a nut, but this UK Government have had to be dragged kicking and screaming into tackling major, systematic tax avoidance and evasion. The extension was proposed through the Finance Act 2017, and since then the SNP concern has been about the key effect on contractors supplying public sector bodies. It is only right for such contractors to pay their fair share of tax, but they have been left with an unfairly high level of bureaucracy, making it even more difficult for them to play their flexible role within the economy, as those in the sector have confirmed. Experts have expressed concerns that IR35 does not even achieve its stated aim of equalising tax between those in its scope and employees.

IR35 has also made things more difficult for public sector organisations in rural communities, something I know a lot about, being a highland MP. In rural areas, we often rely on contractors to fill vacancies and to employ key staff—teachers, doctors, nurses and such key people in our communities—so we have great concerns about the further impact on contractors if IR35 is extended for the private sector in April 2020, as proposed.

We have expressed such concerns repeatedly. Indeed, my hon. Friend the Member for Aberdeen North (Kirsty Blackman) first warned the Chancellor about the risks of the expansion of IR35 during the April 2017 finance debate. The UK Government failed to listen then and, when we raised it again, later in 2017 and in 2018. Here we are in 2019, once again asking the Minister to listen. Will this be the day when ears are unblocked? I hope so. Will this be the day when the message gets through? Let us hope that as well. The UK Government should use the 2019 Budget and Finance Bill to address IR35’s negative impact on contracted staff and our public services.

Earlier today, in the main Chamber, the loan charge was being debated. That is distinct from IR35, but some tax advisers have reportedly informed clients that IR35 required them to utilise tax vehicles now being tackled by the loan charge. For tax professionals to advise clients to use such loopholes is plainly wrong. People should of course pay their fair share of tax to support public services, but the UK Government must now pursue organisations that facilitated such loans. For those caught up in loan charge issues, there is great concern that HMRC has failed to work constructively with those seeking a loan charge repayment.

[Ruth Cadbury]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for giving way, and my hon. Friend the Member for Rutherglen and Hamilton West (Ged Killen) for securing the debate—I am sorry, I should have done that earlier. I was in the loan charge debate, which has been suspended because rain is penetrating the main Chamber, so I came over to this debate. I want to add something now that I said in the other debate. Until the past three or four years, many of the early adopters of the loan charge were doing so with the strong advice of chartered accountants. In my earlier speech, I included at least two pieces of evidence to show that there was no uncertainty about the loan charge—it was legitimate. One was a memo written by an HMRC staff member in 2006 about loan arrangements being legitimate, fine and approved; the other was the Rangers case.

[Ruth Cadbury]

I hope that the hon. Member for Inverness, Nairn, Badenoch and Strathspey (Drew Hendry) will have a look at some of the contributions made during the other debate. Having done so, he will be able to agree with me that there is a lot of confusion and that people were not behaving illegally.

[Drew Hendry]

I thank the hon. Lady for that intervention, which allows me to agree with her—I too attended the early part of the main Chamber debate before coming here—and to say what a pleasure it is to serve under your chairmanship as well, Sir David. It is a particular problem that the companies that gave such advice are not being pursued, and the Minister must do something. As a final comment on the hon. Lady’s intervention, given the state of politics in this place, it is hardly surprising that the roof has fallen in on Westminster.

Among those caught up in the loan charge issues, there is great and heartfelt concern that HMRC has failed. It has failed to work constructively with those seeking a loan charge repayment plan to pay the taxes demanded. Often, that is bundled up with fines and additional costs. It cannot be right that people are pushed into desperation, or face the threat of losing their family home or of bankruptcy when a more thoughtful, flexible and fair approach should and must be taken. My hon. Friend the Member for Aberdeen North tabled early-day motion 2241, and I encourage Members to sign it. We hope that the UK Government and the Minister will force HMRC to change tack and work constructively with those seeking reasonable treatment of people due to pay fair tax payments for unpaid amounts and to remove the threat of bankruptcy and homelessness.

In conclusion, IR35 is not in a state to be further expanded at the moment. That has been clear throughout, in the comments by Members in this debate and from what we have heard about those who have experienced the effects, such as contractors and the people trying to deal with IR35 in our public services. It cannot be right for the Government to steam ahead without taking that into consideration.