Intelligence and Security Services

Debate between Rory Stewart and Julian Smith

Thursday 31st October 2013 Westminster Hall

[Julian Smith (Skipton and Ripon) (Con)]

It is very important during this debate to reassure the public that in Britain we have one of the best oversight regimes in the world. That has evolved not only under this Government but under Labour. There has been a great deal of consensus about how such improvements should be made.

Let us also reassure people that our intelligence services have been accused of no crime. There has been no comment in any articles in recent weeks that GCHQ or our intelligence service have behaved illegally. That is not to say that improvements do not need to be made, particularly in terms of metadata and how they are analysed. We should also consider the types of people who are commissioners. Why do we not look outwith the judiciary and start looking at, say, a retired bishop or somebody from another walk of life? However, in terms of the subject today—the oversight and framework of our intelligence services—I am afraid that the responses to the debate have been way off the mark.

I want to focus my attention on an important challenge to our security services, and that is our excellent British press. Almost every newspaper has played an important role in challenging the intelligence services over recent months with their reporting on the Snowden leaks. That is an important role, but the point that I want to make today is that one newspaper, in seeking to raise important issues, and absolutely having the right to do so, has overstepped the mark to such a degree that the very thing that our intelligence services are trying to protect—our national security—is threatened. Before I continue with my remarks, I should say that I enjoy The Guardian. I respect many journalists on the paper, and this is not an attack on the right of The Guardian to report on Snowden.

I want to raise two or three issues today. On 4 October, The Guardian reported on the Tor network—the black internet—where child pornography, drug trafficking and arms trading take place. Please look at the detail of that report. If people look at the trial, in June, of one of the most active child pornographers in Ireland, they will see that the NSA and the activities of the intelligence services were key to apprehending and hopefully—it is likely—putting him away. However, on 4 October, The Guardian went into a level of detail that the previous head of GCHQ decried as being wrong, and which many people in the police world feel will cause major issues in terms of picking up people engaged in organised crime.

[Rory Stewart (Penrith and The Border) (Con)]

Will my hon. Friend expand on the question whether there is a distinction between organised crime and terrorism, in terms of the kind of measures that it is reasonable for a security organisation to take, and the kind of surveillance that it can operate?

[Julian Smith]

I am going to push on, but it is important to say that the intelligence services are doing critical work in both categories, and we need to support that work.

On the issue of the documents that The Guardian holds, when hon. Members talk about prosecutions not happening and things not really being that bad, I ask them to look at the online discussions that Guardian editors have had. They have admitted to sending internationally the most detailed documents and underlying data about GCHQ specifically. I do not want to talk too much about David Miranda today, but his data were on a games console. Those data, in data dumps throughout the world, are still out there, and hackers claim that they have access to it. The Independent, which also had access to those documents, started reporting on them but then stopped because it realised that to do so was problematic. The issue with The Guardian is current; the data are out there and are a danger to our national security.

The third element that I want to discuss today is the fact that The Guardian is not talking to the Government. If it really was confident in its position, and I believe that there is quite a lot of tension at The Guardian on the approach it has taken, it would have a discussion with the Government, who have been very clear. Look at the witness statements for the Miranda trial. They have been so careful about ensuring that they do not interfere with The Guardian as a newspaper and with its right to report. However, The Guardian should come forward now and tell the Government what intelligence data it has overseas and where those intelligence data are. Is there identifying information about our agents in the data? What protections are there in The Guardian offices to look after that material?

Rural Broadband

Debate between Rory Stewart and Julian Smith

Wednesday 23rd March 2011 Westminster Hall

[Julian Smith (Skipton and Ripon) (Con)]

I am a little concerned that my hon. Friend is about to finish his speech, because I would like briefly to pay tribute to his leadership on this matter, on which he is the most knowledgeable person in the House. I hope that Cumbria, together with north Yorkshire, will build the arc of superfast broadband across rural northern Britain.

Before he concludes, will my hon. Friend talk a little about the responsibility of communities in dealing with the matter? I am concerned that the debate has gone a little too far towards Government solutions and council solutions. He has played an exceptional role in getting communities motivated. How does he do it?

[Rory Stewart]

I give way to the hon. Member for Newcastle upon Tyne Central (Chi Onwurah).