Devolution and the Union

Rory Stewart Excerpts

Thursday 20th November 2014 Commons Chamber

[Angus Robertson]

I was coming on to make the point that the Scottish National party and the Scottish Government continue to believe that Scotland should, and will in the future, be independent. However, we accept both the result of the referendum on 18 September and the fact that independence will not be the outcome of the Smith commission. What is beyond doubt is that the people of Scotland expect early and substantial change. I am not talking about something that is dependent on English votes for English laws—much as I have sympathy with that as an issue—the West Lothian question or the subsidy argument, from which many people in Scotland will recoil.

[Rory Stewart (Penrith and The Border) (Con)]

rose—

[Angus Robertson]

Forgive me, I have already taken interventions and want to make some progress. It is likely that I will be the only Member who speaks on behalf of the 1.6 million people who voted yes for independence in the referendum.

What is beyond doubt is that the people of Scotland expect early and substantial change—change that will give the Scottish Parliament the further powers and responsibilities that it needs to tackle the challenges facing Scotland in a way that responds to the views and votes of people in Scotland. That is what was promised in the referendum campaign, and it is what people now expect to be delivered without any conditions.

--- Later in debate ---

[Angus Robertson]

We are respectful of the Smith process and I await the outcome of the commission. I look forward with great optimism to its proposals being those for which we would all wish.

Scotland should get the financial benefits as well as having the tools to manage the risks of its new responsibilities, and the Scottish Government’s responsibility for all welfare policy and administration should be devolved. As a priority, that should involve all working-age benefits. In the meantime, the roll-out of universal credit and the personal independence payment in Scotland should be halted to ensure that the practical ability to devolve individual benefits is not compromised.

Employment and employability policy, including responsibility for setting the minimum wage and all employability programmes, should also be devolved. Equal opportunities and the equality policy should be devolved. I could go on, because there are many further powers that should be devolved, and that is not just the view of the Scottish National party. The public have been asked about them in a range of academic studies and a series of polls, and it is important that Members are aware of the strength of feeling on these matters.

[Rory Stewart]

On that point, will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Angus Robertson]

I have not even read out the statistics yet. I ask the hon. Gentleman to wait to hear them.

In the most recent survey, conducted by Panelbase, 71% of respondents said that they wanted control of all taxation raised in Scotland, 66% wanted control of all areas of Government policy except defence and foreign affairs, which is sometimes referred to as devo-max, 75% wanted control of welfare and benefits, 65% wanted control of policy on the state pension, and 68% wanted control over oil, gas and tax revenues generated in Scottish waters. The list goes on.

[Rory Stewart]

On that point, 55% of the Scottish population expressed their wish not to have independence. Will the hon. Gentleman tell us the minimum time that he will guarantee will elapse before another referendum on independence? Is it 20 years?

[Angus Robertson]

I hope that the hon. Gentleman and I agree that such a question will be posed when the people wish it to be posed. The result was not the one that I wanted. It was a no and I am sorry about that. I would have wanted Scotland to be negotiating progress towards independence, but it is not happening now. However, I believe that it will happen in the future when the people wish it to happen.

I have very little time in which to conclude, but let me say that there should be no conditionality on what was promised in the vow. It should be delivered in full and it should not be tied to English votes for English laws or to the Barnett issue, and for that reason we will oppose the motion.

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[John Glen]

Absolutely. I agree. I was going on to say that what our constituents want is to avoid a higher cost of politics, more politicians or irrelevant local talking shops.

The Prime Minister also promised a decisive answer to the West Lothian question in the form of English votes for English laws. I know that some hon. Members will advocate an English Parliament or English assembly. I believe that that would be the wrong reform. The Scottish people voted to stay in the United Kingdom, and this House should respect and applaud that. We should not try to break up the UK by other means; we should not make this place a hollowed out, federal senate or part-time English Parliament.

It is important, though, that we deliver a decisive answer to the West Lothian question. We are fortunate to be able to draw on careful work and thinking on this issue by colleagues on both sides of the House and people outside this place. The principle is simple. English votes for English laws demands that hon. Members from English constituencies have sole final discretion on laws that affect only England. It is not always acknowledged that that issue is related to the Barnett formula, but the formula privileges English spending just as changes in English spending create the Barnett differentials applied to the consolidated grant. For this process to continue to have legitimacy, all hon. Members must be able to have a say on English spending. No one should be excluded from speaking or voting. However, to meet the principle of sole final discretion, there must be a majority of Members from English constituencies finally in favour.

[Rory Stewart]

Does the hon. Gentleman support the McKay commission in relation to that?

[John Glen]

I was just about to say that there is a considerable body of support among Government Members in favour of the proposals for this double majority found in the McKay commission report, but it should be calibrated to ensure that sole final discretion happens in practice and is not just a convention. In the same way as the Barnett formula reform is not as simple as it first looks, I believe that this is not as simple as changing the Standing Orders, as some have suggested. Finance Bills in particular contain a mass of provisions that affect various parts of the UK in different ways. It is not enough to say that discretion can be given to Mr Speaker and his advisers as it is for identifying constitutional Bills.

We will need proposals for a clear test of what is a separate and distinct English issue, whether for a clause or for a whole Bill. These are two issues that we need to get right in order to secure a robust settlement that will endure for the future. We should not advance over-simplistic solutions, but our constituents expect considerable progress on these issues. I hope that, as a consensus emerges, we will not miss this opportunity to legislate properly for the future and to honour the commitments that were made in recent weeks.

Devolution (Scotland Referendum)

Rory Stewart Excerpts

Tuesday 14th October 2014 Commons Chamber

[Mr Hague]

I have not had any representations from any of the Labour MPs in Yorkshire; that is true. I was hoping that the Labour party would attend the Cabinet Committee on devolution and that it would put forward its ideas, but evidently it has decided not to do so. It could have come with superior ideas and innovative solutions that it might be happy with. It could have come to say that the constitutional convention would be its policy. All these things are still open to it. It could have come and pretended to have some ideas to demonstrate the unity that the Leader of the Opposition is desperately calling for at the moment. It could have come and done all these things, but instead it has evidently decided—the right hon. Member for Tooting (Sadiq Khan) may wish to confirm this in his speech—not to join in the work of the Committee. I therefore hope that nobody on the Opposition Benches will lecture us about not listening to other ideas when they are not prepared to come and give their ideas at the Cabinet Committee that has been established.

[Rory Stewart (Penrith and The Border) (Con)]

Does my right hon. Friend agree that if we are looking for a consensual approach with Opposition Members that is highly researched, intelligent and focused on the issue of English votes for English laws without giving up the principle of the Union Parliament, we should gather together around the McKay commission proposals?

[Mr Hague]

The McKay commission proposals are a very good starting point. They are very well thought out, after a great deal of research. Many of the proposals are about how to insert an English stage into the legislative process, and I know that my hon. Friend has expressed his support for that.

House of Lords Reform Bill

Rory Stewart Excerpts

Tuesday 10th July 2012 Commons Chamber

[Ms Eagle]

My right hon. Friend is right that the move from a wholly elected Chamber to one that is almost entirely elected inevitably raises questions about the relationship between and the powers of the two Chambers which we should debate in this place.

With issues that do not feature in the party manifestos, the situation will be even more fraught. The situation with secondary legislation will also be problematic. This is uncharted territory. That does not mean that we should run away from reform, but we must not simply cross our fingers and hope that these issues will miraculously be resolved or will not crop up.

[Rory Stewart (Penrith and The Border) (Con)]

Among all the discussion about reform, does the hon. Lady agree that the great opportunity for reform that is being presented, which those from every part of the House should support, is to ensure that, in future, any major constitutional change of any sort in this country goes through a proper procedure, including a referendum? That would bring us into line with every other democracy of the 21st century, about which we have heard so much.

[Ms Eagle]

I hope that the hon. Gentleman would agree that I have been making the case as strongly as I can for a referendum on this issue.

The matter of powers has to be dealt with effectively in primary legislation. We cannot behave as if the Parliament Acts never existed. Merely asserting that they are still on the statute book is not nearly adequate as a mechanism for determining the relative powers of the two Houses.

There are also questions over the length of the terms and the term limit. The core principle of a democratically accountable Parliament must surely be that the legislators are accountable at the ballot box for their decisions. Members of the current House of Lords, as was pointed out more than once in yesterday’s debate, never have to account for their decisions at the ballot box. That is the essence of the democratic deficit that we are all trying to address. However, the Government are proposing a second Chamber where Members will never be accountable for their decisions, because they will be prevented from standing for a second term. That needs to be looked at again.

Along with our concerns over the restriction on re-election, we also have concerns about the proposed length of the terms. Members of this House are elected for five-year terms. It is not immediately apparent that electing Members to a second Chamber for terms as long as those that are proposed will provide much democratic legitimacy, especially when the terms are drawing to a close. There is merit in having longer terms of office in the second Chamber, but we hope to reach agreement on Report on more sensible and practical terms.

We also have concerns about the Government’s proposed electoral system, which we could probably spend many hours talking about. Their preference is a semi-open list, whereas we favour an open-list, proportional representation approach. We will explore the chances of a change in that system during the passage of the Bill.

--- Later in debate ---

[Rory Stewart (Penrith and The Border) (Con)]

It is unfortunate that the debate has turned into an attack on the Liberal Democrats. This is a huge opportunity for reform. There has been a lot of talk about the 21st century and democracy, and there is an important democratic opportunity in the Bill that I hope the Liberal Democrats will lead us in taking.

We have heard much about 21st century democracy. There are many different kinds of democracy. We have the trunk of the democracy, meaning the directly elected legislature, which in our case is this place; the crown of the tree, which is the rule of law; and the root, which is the constitution. The constitution is an example of something on which we can work together.

What kind of democracy do we have in that context? We can have as many different kinds as there are trees: we can have flowers on it, like a cherry tree, or strange brown leaves like a beech in winter, or needles like a pine tree. Within our democracy, we have judges who are not elected, as we have heard ad infinitum, and generals who are not elected. Certain powers are taken away from the House and given to non-elected people as part of our democracy. For example, the Labour Government were proud to take away control of interest rates from Parliament and to give it to an independent central bank. Government Members were proud to take control of economic forecasting away from this place and give it to the Office for Budget Responsibility. Indeed, there was a lot of consensus on taking away investigative powers from the House and giving them to the independent, judge-led Leveson inquiry.

Exactly what balance of elected and unelected people we want within a democratic constitution is an interesting question. Like the Chinese, we could elect our generals; like the Americans, we could elect judges; or, like the Canadians, we could have an appointed upper Chamber. What determines that balance in a democracy is what we want to do and the problems we are trying to solve.

The problems of 1909—this is my point about the 21st century—are not, sadly, the problems of today. The Senate in the US was created to deal with an over-mighty sovereign and the problem of the relationship between the territories, such as the states, and the population. The problem that the Liberals tried to solve in 1909 was that the hereditary peerage deliberately blocked financial regulation—the Liberals largely solved it with the Parliament Act 1911.

Since then, our countries and our parties have changed. Many things in our manifestos in 1909 are no longer in our manifestos today, because the nature of our problems has changed. The problems we are dealing with today are not the problems of 1909. We can see that in elected second Chambers throughout the world. The kinds of problems that led to the creation of the directly elected Australian Senate after 1900, which inspired the reforms in the UK, and the problems that led to the creation of the directly elected Italian Senate in 1948, have passed. Throughout the 1940s and 1950s, there was a reduction in the number of bicameral legislatures.

We need to solve the problems of today. They are problems of local democracy, on which the Liberal Democrats should be proud of taking the lead; they are problems of accountability in large multilateral institutions such as the European Union, on which I hope hon. Members together can take a lead; and they are problems of professionalism and expertise.

However, perhaps the greatest democratic challenge for this country in the 21st century—I hope the Liberal Democrats will take the lead on this—is the root, meaning the constitution. It is in that respect that we are behind every other country in the world. Other countries have indirectly elected or appointed bicameral legislatures, but not a single responsible country remains that allows itself to change constitutional law as though it were ordinary law. The constitution protects the citizen from the Government. For that reason, the Government, who are temporary, have no right to interfere with the constitution of the people.

We felt differently about that in 1909. We flattered ourselves that we had a huge constitutional tradition, history and culture in the other place that forced us to debate and investigate those great issues. That time has passed, and today we find ourselves isolated in the world as the only country—the source of constitutionalism —that tries to behave as though there is no difference between constitutional law and non-constitutional law. Other countries, such as the Nordic countries, have a solution—they have a gap between two Parliaments, or they can demand a two-thirds majority or a referendum. In our case, we used to have a free vote and no guillotine motion.

Let hon. Members together take the great opportunity to ensure that constitutional change, which was positioned in the Liberal Democrat manifesto and endorsed by the Deputy Prime Minister and the majority of Government Members, happens in future only through a referendum.