Points of Order

Debate between Robin Swann and Roger Gale

Monday 23rd June 2025 Commons Chamber

[Robin Swann (South Antrim) (UUP)]

On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. On Friday, many colleagues in this House spoke of compassion, sympathy and understanding. Unfortunately, the same compassion, sympathy and understanding were not extended to the hon. Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme (Adam Jogee). His father-in-law, my constituent Mr Adrian Lawther, was nearing the end of a very full life, and he rightly wanted to be with his wife and her family at that time. He sought a pair for Third Reading of the Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill from the promoter of the Bill and the Government Chief Whip, as well as seeking advice and support from the Speaker’s Office.

Mr Deputy Speaker, I was with the hon. Member at the departure gate waiting to return to Northern Ireland when his wife called to tell him of her father’s passing. It now appears that other Members were able to avail themselves of proxies in the hands of Government Whips. The hon. Member should not have been forced to travel to this place to have his vote recorded. I seek your advice, Sir, on the best approach to seek a remedy to ensure that we in this place can support each other to the best of our ability and at times of great personal need.

[Mr Deputy Speaker]

I am grateful to the hon. Member for giving notice of his point of order. May I first express my sympathy to the hon. Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme (Adam Jogee) and his family? I take it that the hon. Member for South Antrim (Robin Swann) notified the hon. Member that he intended to raise the matter in the Chamber today.

[Robin Swann]

indicated assent.

[Mr Deputy Speaker]

Thank you.

As the hon. Member will know, pairing is not a matter for the Chair; it is an arrangement between hon. Members individually and their Whips—and of course I could not possibly comment any further on that. However, the circumstances under which a Member is eligible for a proxy vote do not at present include family bereavement. If it wished to do so, the House could change that, but I am not able to do so on my own account. I understand, however, that the Procedure Committee has been conducting a review of these arrangements, which might include matters such as pairing.

Police Funding

Debate between Robin Swann and Roger Gale

Tuesday 5th November 2024 Westminster Hall

[Robin Swann (South Antrim) (UUP)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Roger. I congratulate my colleague the hon. Member for North Down (Alex Easton) on bringing forward this debate. It is interesting to note that its title on the Order Paper is “Funding for policing”. It is disappointing, I am sure, for the sponsor to see the lack of Members from Government, official Opposition or other parties who have come to Westminster Hall today to debate the funding of policing across the United Kingdom. This was not going to be a debate that focused solely on the PSNI, although that is where it has gone because of the Northern Ireland influence here. That is testament to Northern Ireland’s MPs, in regard to how we value the service and the dedication of our police service across the United Kingdom. In the interests of this debate—I note that it is the Under-Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, the hon. Member for Putney (Fleur Anderson), who will respond on the funding for policing—I, like others, will focus my contributions on the PSNI.

As other speakers have pointed out, the 6,300 officers that we currently have represent an unsustainable level. As the hon. and learned Member for North Antrim (Jim Allister) said, in Patten that was envisioned to be 7,500, and our current Chief Constable has said that he would expect to have a force of 8,500 to do the job that he wants to do, given the size of our population and the level of need in Northern Ireland. We are currently asking our police service and our Chief Constable to do more with less; when it comes to the security and reassurance of the people of Northern Ireland, that is a recipe for disaster.

The hon. Member for Upper Bann (Carla Lockhart) has indicated that position, with women on our local media this morning saying that they now feel unsafe walking the streets of Northern Ireland. In this day and age in any part of this United Kingdom, it is a shame and a disgrace that we are now in a situation where women feel unsafe walking the streets. This should be a first-world country, with a first-world police service looking after the people, who deserve and expect that. By the end of this year, it is expected that our police numbers will have fallen to 6,000 in Northern Ireland—as the hon. Member for North Down has indicated, that leaves about 4,500 who will actually be deployed—and the purpose of this debate is to look at what more can be done to address the further challenges that our Chief Constable and the Northern Ireland Policing Board face in delivering their service.

As has been referenced here—although I do not think this is widely understood—policing in Northern Ireland got to the critical point at which our Chief Constable took it upon himself to write to the Prime Minister to seek direct intervention, over the heads of the Justice Minister, the Policing Board and the Northern Ireland Assembly. Such was the situation he felt so desperate about—protecting not just the backs of his own officers, but the people of Northern Ireland—that he felt that that was the direction he needed to take. How was he rewarded? With a letter of chastisement from the permanent secretary of the Department of Justice in Northern Ireland; our Chief Constable was so dedicated to service and delivery, but he received that level of put-down—and it was not corrected or even challenged by the Justice Minister, who should have stepped in to support the Chief Constable, the police and the Policing Board.

The challenges of the PSNI have been mentioned. Certain parts have not been perfect, including the data breach compensation claim and the additional pressures from the holiday pay claim, but it is concerning that yesterday in the Northern Ireland Assembly—on the back of the Budget announced in this place—the Finance Minister said that His Majesty’s Treasury is insisting that those payments come out of the Stormont budget.

It has been said that we have a challenged and declining policing budget while health funding has increased by 60% to 80% over the last 13 years. That is an unfair comparison. Any financial expert from the Northern Ireland Fiscal Council will say that health needs 6% year on year simply to stand still; I think that is a recognised statistic, so it is not fair to compare what health has received with what policing has not. As the hon. Member for North Down indicated, justice has received additional moneys, and—given the way that the structures in Northern Ireland work—it should be up to the Justice Minister how that works out.

I pay tribute to our police personnel in Northern Ireland for the continued work they do in challenging situations, day after day, night after night, and in the face of a lot of criticism. I recognise the comments from the hon. Member for Middlesbrough South and East Cleveland (Luke Myer) about going back to having a named, constituency, locally-recognised police officer. The majority of police officers want to be in that situation and we need to think about how we can support them in doing so. I also pay tribute to the Police Federation for Northern Ireland—particularly Liam Kelly—and how it has represented its officers and fought for them at every opportunity; I hope that the rest of this House does likewise.

[Sir Roger Gale (in the Chair)]

Order. Mr Shannon, I appreciate that you have been detained elsewhere with other business in the House but we are playing “beat the clock”, so I will not be able to call you. Ordinarily, because you arrived so late, I would not be able to allow you to intervene, but under these circumstances, if you choose to intervene on one of the Front-Bench spokesmen, I will allow you to do so.