Pensioners and Winter Fuel Payments

Robert Smith Excerpts

Tuesday 22nd November 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mr Dodds]

I understand that argument entirely. Indeed, the Select Committee on Energy and Climate Change pointed to it in its report back in 2010, and I will come on to deal with the targeting of resources and tackling fuel poverty. As for cold weather payments, there is clear evidence that many pensioners do not claim all the benefits to which they are entitled. The benefit of having a universal system is that it reaches all those who need it. I will deal with the issue that the right hon. Gentleman has highlighted in more detail later.

[Sir Robert Smith (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD)]

In some of the trials aimed at trying to reduce fuel poverty in other parts of the United Kingdom, there has been a conscious drive to improve benefit take-up, and that has made a huge difference to people’s income, far more than the winter fuel payment would make.

[Mr Dodds]

It is a combination of all these factors. The winter fuel payment does play an important role, as the Government and the Minister have acknowledged. The Government made it very clear in the coalition agreement that they would maintain the payment. The hon. Gentleman is right to say that benefit take-up is extremely important, and we should all be doing more to encourage it. Back in Northern Ireland, the Executive have also taken steps to try to encourage benefit take-up. The winter fuel payment plays an important role in tackling this issue.

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[Mr Dodds]

Yes, the hon. Gentleman raises an important point about those who depend on home heating oil. These are one-off payments of about £600 for 900 litres of oil—it is a lump-sum payment—so it would be extremely helpful to people to have that money in their hands when they were able to buy more oil at a lower price. He makes an extremely good point.

The picture is stark: we have much higher energy costs; there are considerable pressures on pensioner household incomes owing to lower savings returns; and increases in VAT are hitting everybody hard, but hitting pensioners particularly hard. Furthermore, pensioners tend to be on fixed-retirement incomes, and we know that, according to a recent report, the cost of living has risen by one fifth for older people over the past four years, compared with 14% for the population as a whole.

At the last election, the parties made a number of pledges. On pensioners, the Conservative party described the number of excess winter deaths as a national disgrace, and it said:

“we want to set the record straight. Labour are sending cynical and deceptive leaflets to pensioners’ homes saying we would cut their benefits. This is an outright lie, and here it is in black and white: we will protect pensioners’ benefits and concessions, and this includes: the Pension Credit; the Winter Fuel Allowance; free bus passes; and, free TV licences.”

I defy anybody out there in the public to interpret that statement as anything other than a pledge not only to maintain the existence of the winter fuel allowance, so that it continued to be paid as a benefit, but to maintain it at the same rate at which people were receiving it when the election was called. What other interpretation can we put on those words?

The Liberal Democrats said in their manifesto before the last election that they would reform winter fuel payments, extending them to all severely disabled people, and that this would be paid for by delaying age-related winter fuel payments until people reached 65. However, the Minister, who is in his place, said earlier this month:

“There are no plans to extend provision under the winter fuel payment scheme.”—[Official Report, 3 November 2011; Vol. 534, c. 719W.]

The coalition programme for government stated:

“We will protect key benefits for older people such as the winter fuel allowance,”

and so on. Then there is the argument about the Labour party’s position and what Labour was proposing—or not proposing—to do had it remained in office.

I point to those pledges for this reason. People say today that politicians, Parliament and this House are disconnected from ordinary people. People are losing faith in politics; and is it any wonder, when they read those clear statements and are led to believe one thing, but then, as soon as the election takes place and the same politicians come to office, they turn round and do something entirely different? Their argument in doing so is: “Well, we’re only doing what the previous Government said they would do.” When people can so cynically disregard the pledges that they make on such an important issue, that is another reason for the disconnect between politicians and the public out there.

[Sir Robert Smith]

I understand the right hon. Gentleman’s argument, but does he think that one reason for the disconnect is perhaps also the previous Government’s mistaken decision to raise the rate to a level that they did not think they could afford to maintain in the long term? That was where the disconnect started.

[Mr Dodds]

I have not heard it said that the level of the payments made over the last three years was unsustainable. I have never heard anybody make that argument.

Let us be fair: the Government have made choices. They have decided, because of the economic situation and the deficit, to cut expenditure in certain areas. In other areas, they have decided to maintain or increase spending. That is the choice of the Government and the majority of the Members of this House; but do not let anyone pretend that the Government had no choice about winter fuel payments or that they had to do what they did. They did not have to do it: they chose to pick this area for cuts and not others. That is a reprehensible choice—a choice that is not justified either economically or morally. At a time of so many excess winter deaths among our older population, it is appalling that cuts should be aimed at that sector of our population.

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[Steve Webb]

I am happy to do that. It would be helpful if the hon. Gentleman would be kind enough to give me as much detail as possible in writing. In general, as I have said, I have been impressed by how responsive the system is.

[Sir Robert Smith]

rose—

[Steve Webb]

I will give way in a moment. There is a recognition that, wherever we put the cold weather stations to try to capture some of the variation in climate, such as the seven stations that serve Northern Ireland—

[Steve Webb]

I will give way to my hon. Friend the Member for West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine (Sir Robert Smith) first and then to the hon. Gentleman. No matter where we put the cold weather stations, somebody, somewhere says, “Hang on a minute, it is in the wrong side of the postcode” and so on. We keep these things under constant review because we want the system to work.

[Sir Robert Smith]

I wish to reinforce the point that the Minister has made. A submission was made that there should be a measuring station at Aboyne in my constituency and the Minister decided that there will be, which means that people living in the colder inland part of the constituency no longer have to rely on measurements taken in a coastal community.

[Steve Webb]

Indeed. I feel that I am acquiring an encyclopaedic knowledge of the remoter parts of Scotland through this role, but I am grateful to my hon. Friend for reminding the House that we listen to representations that are made and take them seriously.

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[Sir Robert Smith (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD)]

I congratulate the right hon. Member for Belfast North (Mr Dodds) on choosing this subject. With winter fast approaching, this is an issue that will clearly be on many of our constituents’ minds. Although it has been unseasonably warm in my part of Scotland, we must realise that the winter is still ahead of us and we face the challenge of yet again trying to heat our homes. I declare an interest to the House. In the Register of Members’ Financial Interests, I have noted oil and gas industry interests which are relevant to this debate.

As has become apparent in the debate, fuel poverty is made up of a combination of three pillars: the cost of the energy itself, the income of the household, and the quality of the houses that people live in and are trying to heat. All three of those factors need tackling, and attempts have been made to do so over the years. I suspect that one of the mistakes probably made by all of us, but particularly by the previous Government, was relying on the cost of energy as the main platform for tackling fuel poverty in a period when competition brought down energy prices. We did not realise the need to get our housing stock well and truly up to standard to ensure that, when prices went back up, people would be able to afford to heat their homes because they would not need so much energy. The energy efficiency of homes and our housing stock is a crucial factor in building the long-term foundations for tackling the problem once and for all.

In the run-up to this winter, the Government are rightly trying to concentrate on making sure that energy bills are as low as possible by pushing for an end to the complexity. As the hon. Member for Kilmarnock and Loudoun (Cathy Jamieson) made clear, many people do not know how to shop around. They are faced with myriad complex tariffs and offers and are lured in to sign up to new contracts and, after that, a rising tariff. One of the ways of improving the markets and ensuring that at least bills are no higher than they should be is to have clearer tariffs and an end to the complexity.

The other problem is that of houses not on the gas grid. It would be interesting to hear, perhaps in the reply to the debate, whether anything can be done in Northern Ireland to extend the gas grid. If we can get more people on to the gas main, it will at least ensure that they have one of the most reasonable fuels for heating their homes in the immediate future.

However, not every house will be on the gas grid and we will have to tackle the problem of those that are not. Consumers of grid heating fuels such as gas and electricity have a market in which Ofgem—the regulator—and the rules consider how vulnerable customers are treated, and vulnerable customers cannot be disconnected in the winter. However, following the Office of Fair Trading inquiry and all the other reports on the off-grid, I am concerned that heating oil and liquefied petroleum gas suppliers do not have the same constraints on their market in terms of how they handle vulnerable customers and their relationship with them.

[Mr Weir]

The hon. Gentleman is making a very good point. He may remember that, in the previous Parliament, the excuse was always that that market was made up of smaller companies. Does he agree that that is no longer so? In many cases, suppliers have a virtual monopoly, and it is high time that the same sort of tariffs were introduced into that market as those that exist in the electricity and gas markets.

[Sir Robert Smith]

One can certainly buy from a lot of brands, but when one gets behind them and finds out who the beneficial owner is, one learns that it is not necessarily a different company. There is still scope for considering something we pursued when the hon. Gentleman and I were both on the Select Committee on Energy and Climate Change in the previous Parliament, and that is whether Ofgem should have some kind of locus in relation to off-grid customers as well as on-grid customers. It is certainly worth pursuing with the Secretary of State and Ofgem whether there is any way it can be involved in that market to improve the treatment of vulnerable customers.

I welcome the warm home discount because, obviously, that targets a saving that goes some way to counteract the loss of income. However, we must recognise that the long-term pressures are upward for energy prices, which brings us back to the need to tackle the quality of homes. There is a hope that shale gas may have the potential to assist with energy prices in the medium term, but the reality is that we have to prepare for a world where energy prices are higher. Therefore, in terms of targeting resources, I welcome the cold weather payment being maintained at the higher level because that at least targets those who have the most need most effectively.

The take-up of benefits is crucial and we need to reinforce the campaigns and the different ways of engaging with customers. The data sharing on pensioners between energy companies and the Government is going some way towards trying to identify those vulnerable customers. The energy companies that are doing benefit audits of their customers have shown that such an approach can greatly improve a household’s income. Pensioner take-up of targeted benefits needs to be improved, as does the information. We need to try to get across to people the message that these payments are entitlements, not gifts. People are entitled to these payments and they should not feel in any way inhibited from claiming them, because they have been paid for and they are meant to be claimed. If they were claimed, the problem of fuel poverty would be reduced.

Information is also crucial in trying to get people’s homes up to standard. There is still a lot of reluctance to engage, even when energy efficiency is free. With the upheaval and the uncertainty, people do not have the confidence to let someone into their home to interfere with the fabric of their building. We need to give people more reassurance that the long-term benefits of improving the energy efficiency of their home will give them a stable future when it comes to fuel bills.

[Mr David Hamilton]

The hon. Gentleman has mentioned that the take-up is not as good as it could be, but part of the problem is that we do not have a one-front shop. We should have an organisation—for example, one of those dealing with welfare rights such as the citizens advice bureau—through which someone who is looking for benefits can also find out about the other things available to them. How does that square with the cuts that are being made to local government, because that is the other side of the coin? There are substantial cuts. Many of the people who give the advice are not there now and some of those organisations are closing down. I should also declare an interest in this debate because I am over 60 so I qualify, too.

[Sir Robert Smith]

Yes, it is crucial to ensure that people have access to the information. We also need to ensure that those who have contact with pensioners are aware of it. The health benefits of living in a properly insulated home are very great, but not enough is done through the health service to steer people towards available schemes to help them to heat their homes. When someone presents at a GP’s practice with a health problem that can be exacerbated by a cold home, they should immediately be steered towards information about how to get benefits to improve their home.

I shall highlight one of the frustrations of promoting warm homes week. I went out to help energy efficiency installers. At one semi-detached house, people were drilling a hole in the wall and putting a chain down through the hole in the wall between them and the neighbour. When I asked why, they said, “It’s to make sure the neighbour doesn’t get any insulation,” because the neighbour did not want it. That shows both the resistance to what is inevitably in the best interests of the home and the level of inefficiency. Installers cannot do a whole street because individuals have not got the confidence to share. Obviously, if they are out installing in one house, installing in another house at the same time will greatly reduce the cost of the scheme and increase the take-up. We have to get the information across to people that these schemes are there to help them and that if they make use of them they will have a long-term benefit. The great benefit of improving our housing stock is that as people’s incomes fluctuate and as people move, they will still not fall into fuel poverty.

At a fundamental level, we must get the housing stock sorted out, we must give people the confidence to take up the benefits to which they are entitled, and we must ensure that the energy markets work to maximum efficiency so that even in a time of rising prices we do not pay over the odds for our energy.

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[Sir Robert Smith]

There is an aspect of off-grid that I did not touch on, and I wonder whether the hon. Gentleman thinks that there is more mileage in it. As the renewable heat initiative comes in, does he agree that converting some off-grid domestic properties to heat pumps, particularly air source heat pumps, could make a difference?

[Dr McCrea]

With the greatest respect, many of the people who are losing the winter fuel payment—for example, those who are over 80—will not know about the scheme that the hon. Gentleman mentions. Let us deal with reality, because these are the people who are going to suffer as a result of the coalition Government’s proposal.