Local Government Finance Bill

Debate between Robert Neill and Andrew Gwynne

Wednesday 31st October 2012 Commons Chamber

[Robert Neill]

I believe they can. Manchester is an interesting example. Indeed, my hon. Friend must be intuitive, because I was about to say that pooling can often fit sensibly with the other development that we have seen—in which Manchester has been something of a pathfinder—which is the establishment of joint authorities. It is a classic means of dealing with co-operation by local authorities from the bottom up without the need for—dare I say it in the current climate?—unitary reorganisation. The ability to form a joint authority creates the ability to procure jointly, pool business rates jointly and, therefore, invest jointly, as well as a raft of other things, which are beyond the scope of this Bill.

[Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab)]

I am with the hon. Gentleman on pooling and how economies such as those in Greater Manchester work, but he should not get too carried away with the Manchester example, because my understanding is that Tory Trafford and Liberal Democrat Stockport are not very keen on the idea of pooling resources.

[Robert Neill]

All those authorities signed up to the concept of the joint authority. Any pooling will have to involve sensible negotiation between the various authorities about what is in their mutual interest. I would have thought that a degree of caution was perfectly understandable at this stage in the process. The important thing we are doing in this Bill is putting in place the legislative means to enable areas such as Manchester and other areas with pooling to take up more of the opportunities as, I hope, confidence grows. I hope that my hon. Friend the Minister will confirm that the ability to pool is yet another reason the Government have no intention of going down the route of imposing top-down unitary reorganisation—I am sure this is a timely moment at which to remind ourselves of that point. I hope that the opportunity to pool will also encourage other conurbations to develop a similar approach to that being taken in Greater Manchester. Pooling would provide a means of achieving many of the benefits of what were once described as city regions, without the need for the top-down imposition that went with those arrangements.

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[Robert Neill]

I agree, and I am sure we will be able to find ways to address that. The amendment in question and the pooling of business rates is one of the tools, and it is an important one, but it is not the only tool the Government are putting into the local authority box.

[Andrew Gwynne]

Greater Manchester provides a good example for pooling resources, and not only in terms of business rates. The 10 district councils of Greater Manchester have already decided to pool their local transport fund allocations. That is a gamble for some of them, because they are not getting the direct benefits of the new Metrolink extensions, while other parts of the county are.

[Robert Neill]

That was a helpful intervention, and I hope that it will go some way to helping my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Yardley (John Hemming), because one important source of funding for passenger transport authorities is the allocations that come to the constituent local councils, which they can then use. This is about ensuring that there can be a sensible linkage. If they pool the allocations, it will be logical to find a mechanism whereby they can pool the product of the retained business rate, so that the two can be aligned. The hon. Gentleman makes a very important point.

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[Robert Neill]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. There is nothing compassionate about that. The attitude of Labour Members is blinkered—to put it as charitably as I can. They think the only way to deal with people compassionately is by continuing with a rigid and failed system.

[Andrew Gwynne]

For a split millisecond, the hon. Gentleman had me sold on the idea that he was convinced about a simplified benefits system. If he is convinced, why does he believe council tax benefit should not be part of the universal credit system? The proposals will result in a different council tax benefit system for every local authority area in the country.

[Robert Neill]

The hon. Gentleman, whom I respect in these matters, makes an interesting point. I have two points to make in response. First, we consulted prior to the design of the system, and one question that came up is whether we should include council tax benefit in the universal credit. The cross-party local authority associations did not want that, which we reflected in the Bill. That was their view at the time and I still believe they were right. We adopted a localist stance, and we need take no lessons on that.

Secondly, the hon. Gentleman says there will be different approaches in different areas, but I should gently tell him that he betrays the error of the Labour party’s thinking. Labour Members take a monolithic approach, but local economic circumstances, the demands on people who are not in work, and the demand that they place on council budgets, vary from place to place. The whole point of localising the scheme is to recognise that local authorities are generally better placed than a monolithic and centrally administered scheme to recognise the particular influences on the jobs market and routes back into work in different places.

Local Government Finance Bill

Debate between Robert Neill and Andrew Gwynne

Tuesday 24th January 2012 Commons Chamber

[Robert Neill]

With respect to the hon. Gentleman, that is highly unlikely. In fact, I cannot conceive of such a situation—for this reason, which he really ought to know if he has studied the topic. Fire authorities are in the business rates retention scheme because about one third of them are county council authorities. If they were outside the business rate retention scheme, we would have the perverse situation in which one third of all fire authorities—county council fire authorities, in effect—were nevertheless funded within business rates retention, while the remaining ones, including the metropolitan and other combined or stand-alone fire authorities, were funded by a wholly separate means. It is therefore logical to include them all within the same scheme.

[Andrew Gwynne]

Will the Minister give way?

[Robert Neill]

Let me develop the point, because it may deal with the hon. Gentleman’s question.

Given that authorities are, therefore, all within the scheme, they all benefit from the baseline calculation, which already takes as their starting point their current allocation, which in turn already takes account of need and risk in the fire system. Precepting authorities, including all the metropolitan authorities, will be top-up authorities, because almost all precepting authorities—as they currently are—will come under the new scheme. They will therefore benefit from the top-up being uprated by retail prices index inflation in order to protect them throughout the period. So I hope that that has dealt with the point.

[Andrew Gwynne]

Greater Manchester is one of the metropolitan fire authorities, and I understand that there will be a baseline throughout Greater Manchester for fire and rescue, but, on the retention of business rates, what happens in districts that have had substantial business rate growth as opposed to districts that have had low growth or no growth? Will there be a disparity in precepted funding, or will the precept remain the same throughout the old metropolitan county?

[Robert Neill]

Greater Manchester is protected, because the top-up does not change between the reset periods, save that it is uprated by RPI. So Greater Manchester, as a top-up authority, will be protected from instability. That will be the way with any top-up authority, so Greater Manchester’s situation will not be affected by what happens in its districts, because it is a top-up authority and it has the protection of the RPI uplift until the next reset. That is the answer to that point.

I hope that for those reasons the hon. Member for Derby North will reflect on the fact that his amendment is not the appropriate means of addressing the problem. IRMP does not compare like with like at all, and if we funded to IRMP we might reach the perverse situation in which the locally consulted delivery document drove the funding centrally. That has never been the case; it never was under the hon. Gentleman’s party in government; and it would be illogical. I hope that on reflection he will not press his amendment.