Justice Committee Report: Youth Justice

Debate between Robert Flello and Lord Beith

Thursday 14th March 2013 Commons Chamber

[Sir Alan Beith]

The hon. Gentleman makes an important point, which he has made in the Committee. The Committee recommended that, for example, minor offences that were the subject of cautions should disappear from the register at the age of 18, to give youngsters a chance to get a job and get started in life. I also commend employers who, in the knowledge that people have past criminal convictions, take them on and give them a fresh start, often with success.

[Robert Flello (Stoke-on-Trent South) (Lab)]

The Opposition very much welcome the right hon. Gentleman’s report. I hope we can have an early debate on it, because, certainly judging from the interventions we have heard, there is a need for one. How does he square his Committee’s view that we need to move away from young offender institutions to smaller, more specialised units with what seems to be the Secretary of State’s view—that we should go the other way and roll the smaller units into bigger YOIs?

[Sir Alan Beith]

In fact, we have been closing young offender institutions over the years because the number in custody is now much smaller. The Committee will continue to press its view that most of the work that can be done successfully with young offenders has to be done in small environments, where it is possible to devote sufficient attention to their problems.

There are a number of key things that I do not want to miss out. One is that the Government produced their own, “Transforming Youth Custody” document just as we were concluding our inquiry, so we did not have the chance to work on it in detail, although I have to say that there is not a lot of detail in it. One thing that puzzles us is the Secretary of State’s idea of creating youth colleges to deal with young offenders, because they are actually there, on average, for only 79 days. We fully support and applaud his interest in, and commitment to, sorting out the education of young offenders in custody, but the concept of the colleges does not fit well with the rapid churn of young offenders. In many cases it is important that we get them back into the education system. We have therefore recommended that schools and colleges could be incentivised to take young people back into education after they have completed their sentence, whether it is a custodial or community one.

The Committee had something to say about deaths in custody. It is unacceptable that so many vulnerable young people continue to die in the custody of the state. We await the Minister’s view on whether to set up an independent inquiry and will return to the issue when we have heard what conclusion the Government have reached.

We have many other detailed recommendations that I do not have time to cover today, but the message I want to leave with the House is that we must be prepared to make radical changes in the way we deal with young offenders if we are to stop them becoming the prolific criminal offenders of the future, which is often what they have the potential to become.

Public Bodies Bill [Lords]

Debate between Robert Flello and Lord Beith

Tuesday 25th October 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mr Marsden]

I am sorry, but I will not.

The great military and diplomatic historian Garrett Mattingly said that to do justice to the dead as well as to the living is what matters. That is one of the issues at the heart of tonight's debate. I urge Members on both sides of the House to take those points on board, consider what the hon. Member for Brigg and Goole has said and support his amendment.

[Sir Alan Beith]

The Justice Committee has on two occasions—in its present and previous form—published reports dedicated not to the creation of an office or a title, but to fundamental reform of a system in which there are too many differences across the country. There are too many differences in the ability and efficiency of coroners, in how they are resourced and how their offices are provided for, and too little support and sympathy is shown for bereaved relatives, whether military or those who belong to any of the other categories that have been mentioned today. The important question is not the title, but whether the reforms are actually carried out.

The Minister left me a little confused on whether some High Court judge will ultimately have the words “chief coroner” added to his title. My primary objective is to see reform of the system, rather than someone acquire the title, merit though I see in there being someone who could exercise some professional leadership, just as the head of ACPO exercises professional leadership among police officers and the heads of other organisations.

[Robert Flello]

Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?

[Sir Alan Beith]

I will not, as I want to be brief in order to allow another Member to speak in the time that remains.

The Justice Committee never wanted to see an office of the chief coroner that would be vast, expensive or become involved in the provision of an alternative appeals system, which in my view would never be a proper role for a chief coroner. A chief coroner could help to ensure that cases were handled by the right coroner and that the necessary advice had been given, but appeals against what happened in an inquest need to be to a superior court that has the capacity to examine the legal questions that will then arise.

The coroners system does not exist in Scotland. If military casualties were flown directly to Scotland, they would not be the subject of inquests, unless of course that were to be stipulated in the Bill, because the Scottish system depends on the procurator fiscal deciding that there is something to be investigated, which a wholly different approach. In England, Wales and Northern Ireland, we have always assumed that having the coroner as an objective adjudicator of the cause of death in cases where that was in doubt, or where the state was involved, was a necessary part of our system. Making that system work effectively should be our primary objective.

I welcome the attention that the Royal British Legion has given the matter and remain of the view that it would be useful to have professional leadership from someone designated as chief coroner, but what I want more than anything is for the Government to go ahead with introducing proper, judicially based support for the coroners system so that we can ensure that coroners are properly resourced and are of even quality across the country.