UK Military Action in Iraq: Declassified Documents

Debate between Robert Courts and Peter Dowd

Wednesday 13th December 2023 Westminster Hall

[The Solicitor General (Robert Courts)]

It is a great honour and pleasure to serve under your chairmanship this evening, Mr Dowd. I thank hon. Members and right hon. Members who have been kind enough to welcome me to my role. I look forward to working with them on this issue and many others, and to serving the House in this role. The hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull East (Karl Turner) and I know each other well from maritime matters already, and I am confident that we will have, as ever, the constructive relationship that the House would expect.

May I start by also extending my commiserations to all those who have been affected—families, friends, British personnel and civilians? We deal with enormously sensitive and tragic historic matters here, and while we will talk about some of the detail of disclosure matters and decisions that were taken, we should never lose sight of the fact that, at the beginning and end of the story, are people whose lives have been irrecoverably changed, and in some cases ended. I know that the House will join me in recognising that.

The hon. Member for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath (Neale Hanvey) secured this debate to discuss the declassification of documents arising from UK military action in Iraq in 1998, and indeed the action itself. He has opened a number of matters before us regarding the merits of that action. Of course, I have to start by saying at the outset that these are historic matters that have been subject to exhaustive and detailed examination in other places, as he will know and to which I refer him. These were matters for many Administrations ago, and not ones that this Government can comment on in the merits. Today, I would like to deal with some of the issues around the disclosure of the documents, which are things that I, as Solicitor General, can comment on. I hope to be able to offer some constructive comments there, and then invite the hon. Gentleman to assist me in some other areas.

I would like to deal with some of the process of the declassification of historic records and to discuss the convention relating to Law Officer advice, which is relatively understood but departed from in some circumstances, such as the ones that the hon. Gentleman has mentioned. I will also mention some of the changes that have been made post Chilcot. Of course, Chilcot’s terms of reference did not include the area that the hon. Gentleman specifically refers to today; none the less, coming afterwards there were some changes in the way that Parliament and Government approach those matters, and I will address some of them today.

In relation to UK military action in Iraq in 1998, certain documents, including advice from Law Officers, have been declassified and released to the National Archives. I understand that the hon. Member has shared a link with the Department, which covered some documents that he wanted to discuss today. My understanding is that those particular documents have in fact now been declassified and are now open for public review—I think that is the case and I am grateful to him for confirming it. The catalogue goes through an updated process, and I think that is the position with those documents now.

The hon. Gentleman asked me to comment on why some specific documents were not available. I apologise that I am not able to give him the answer to that right now, but if he were to write to me and draw my attention to the specific documents he referred to, I will be able to give him an answer and either point him to where they are or give him an explanation of why I cannot. Of course, it is for the Cabinet Office, rather than the Attorney General’s Office, to take a view on whether documents should be disclosed, and whether in full or with redactions for any reason. I make that request and offer at the outset; I hope to be able to give him some assistance.

I will make some comments on the framework for disclosure, which may be of assistance. The Public Records Act 1958 placed Government Departments under an obligation to identify public records with historic value and to make arrangements for their permanent preservation. It imposed a duty to open these records after the passage of 50 years. That 50-year rule was reduced to 30 years by the Public Records Act 1967 and further reduced to 20 years by the Constitutional Reform and Governance Act 2010. Departments may retain records, subject to the approval of the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport, and the Freedom of Information Act 2000 placed a duty on Departments to justify whether records transferred to the National Archives should remain closed to the public. However, the general rule is that material that is 20 years old becomes public records.

There have been a number of bespoke bodies responsible for the physical housing of this material, but since 2008 it has been the National Archives. As I have mentioned, there is a framework based on the exemptions for disclosure. That is contained in the Freedom of Information Act 2000 and determines whether material transferred to the National Archives should be open to the public.

There are several exemptions that are not time-limited. Those include: national security; defence; international relations, or information provided in confidence by other states or international organisations or courts; the economy; criminal investigations; parliamentary privilege; health and safety; and environmental information. A number of those exemptions will require the Department that owns the information to carry out a balancing exercise as to whether it is in the public interest to disclose that material. That requires consultation across Whitehall and other bodies, and the outcome of that test is subject to the approval of the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport, who is advised by the Advisory Council on National Records and Archives.

There is a separate scheme—the security and intelligence instrument—which is approved by the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport and which governs information relating to the security and intelligence agencies. That information is retained in the relevant Departments, and information retained by way of the instrument has to be re-reviewed every 10 years. Regardless of how retentions or disclosures are made, anyone is able to challenge such disclosures or retentions by submitting a freedom of information request to the National Archives for closed material or to the originating Department for retained material. I hope that has been helpful to the House with regard to the procedure for the disclosure of such records and gives an overview of the position.

The second point that I would like to spend a minute or two on is the Law Officers’ convention; I know that the House will be familiar with it, but it is worth rehearsing in a little bit of detail. Some of the aspects that the hon. Member for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath has been speaking about do indeed refer to legal advice that was given at the time, or even to the advice of the Law Officers. In this case, some of that material, as he knows, is available in the National Archives.

As a general rule, there are clear and well-understood reasons for not disclosing legal advice, and there are specific considerations around advice that is given to the Government by Law Officers. They may not be relevant to the context or background of this debate—which is about a historic matter and in any event that advice has been published—but, simply for completeness, it is usual practice that advice given by Law Officers and the advice that has been sought, or indeed the fact that advice has been sought, is not disclosed. That is the Law Officers’ convention and that is reflected in the ministerial code. The fact that Law Officers have or have not advised must not be disclosed outside Government without their authority.

It is only in narrow circumstances that that convention has been waived, and that has been with the consent of the Law Officers. As the hon. Gentleman knows, perhaps the clearest example was the legal basis for the invasion of Iraq in 2003. I know that the House will understand that the very clear reason for the convention is that, as with any client-lawyer relationship, it is to enable the Government to seek legal advice in private without fear of adverse inferences being drawn from the content of the advice or indeed from the fact that advice has been sought in the first place. It means that the Government are not discouraged from seeking advice in certain cases, or pressured to seek advice in inappropriate cases, and it protects that relationship, as with any client-lawyer relationship.

The third point that I will spend a few moments talking about, before I leave some time for the hon. Gentleman to respond, is on Chilcot. There have been a number of changes after Chilcot, which of course was a major inquiry after the 2003 invasion. Operation Desert Fox is outside the scope of the Chilcot terms of reference, but the report does cover the use of military force by the UK and US in Iraq in 1998, including documentary evidence and witness testimony, so some matters can be dealt with in there. If the hon. Gentleman will forgive me, I will not go into the details that were discovered in terms of the merits, but there have been a number of changes since. There is a Chilcot checklist to support decision making, the National Security Council was established to help with the decision-making process, and Law Officers have to be consulted in good time. There are a number of ways in which the situation has changed since the time he talked about.

The hon. Member for Tiverton and Honiton (Richard Foord) asked me about the Cabinet manual. A convention has developed that before troops are committed, the Commons is given the opportunity to debate the matter, which the Government have acknowledged in the past. Although the general convention remains as it is, there has been some amendment of points since then.

I apologise for running over slightly, Mr Dowd. I want to leave the hon. Member for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath some time to respond, but I hope I have dealt with the questions he wanted me to; he can of course come back to me if not.

[Peter Dowd (in the Chair)]

The hon. Gentleman has 30 seconds if he wishes.

P&O Ferries

Debate between Robert Courts and Peter Dowd

Monday 28th March 2022 Commons Chamber

[Robert Courts]

My hon. Friend speaks with enormous power and passion for her constituents in Ynys Môn, and I pay tribute to her for that. The distress felt by seafarers of all companies has been absolutely palpable over the last week. Clearly, those at P&O are in our hearts and minds, but equally there are those with other operators who are worried about their livelihoods. It is precisely the case that we are taking the time we are because we want to be able to provide the reassurance to others, no matter where they work or who they are employed by, that their livelihoods will be secure.

[Peter Dowd (Bootle) (Lab)]

I appreciate the Minister’s comment about DP World or P&O Ferries being on the advisory group, and that he will look at this as part of a package, but can he just tell us today whether part of that package is going to be to take DP World off the Government’s advisory body? That would send a fantastic message right now to the company that its behaviour is unacceptable. Will the Minister send out that message now, not ask us to wait for the package?

[Robert Courts]

I do apologise to the hon. Gentleman, because I know that he would like me to say a number of things and to send such a message now. The message will be sent. I hope he will forgive me, but I want there to be a package that we announce to the House so that the House can scrutinise it, rather than announcing things piecemeal. We will come to the House, and we will explain what all those are.

Finance (No. 2) Bill

Debate between Robert Courts and Peter Dowd

Committee: 1st sitting: House of Commons
Monday 18th December 2017 Commons Chamber

[Robert Courts]

It is a great honour to speak in the debate on this very important matter, and particularly to follow the hon. Member for Bristol South (Karin Smyth). She made some very interesting points, and I am glad that she supports many of the technical education measures that the Government are bringing in. I entirely agree with her that this is one of the great challenges the country faces, and I applaud the Government’s work in setting out a framework for technical education in the future.

I want to talk directly about the bank levy. All hon. Members on both sides of the House probably accept that it is very important for the banks to pay a fair contribution towards public services and the tax yield in this country. They are significant employers with significant operations and they are wealthy and profitable enterprises, but it is very important to have a balance. Such a balance throws into relief the fact that banks are responsible not just for being profitable and therefore for paying tax, but for introducing liquidity into the system and enabling us to borrow.

If any hon. Member has ever borrowed to buy a car or a house or to invest in a business—many of their constituents will of course have done so—the money will have come from a bank in most cases. It is very important that banks are enabled to provide precisely that service, so there has to be a balance. Yes, they must pay a fair share towards the economy and society in which we all live, but that share should not be so large that their ability to lend is decreased. I suggest that this Government have got the balance right. In 2010, the Conservative coalition Government increased regulation, and in 2011 they introduced the bank levy, which reflected the risk inherent in the banking sector. It is an inherently risky sector because of the very nature of the way in which it operates, and the bank levy was introduced precisely to recognise that risk. It was introduced to incentivise the banking sector as it then was to invest in a way that was less risky than the ways in which it had operated up until that time.

That spirit of balance, which is the keynote point of my few remarks this evening, is why we need reform now. There is a gradual shift from the levy to taxing profit, recognising that the regulatory regime globally, as well as in this country, has moved on considerably since it was introduced. Since 2016, we have had an 8% tax on bank profits—the corporation tax surcharge—which will raise £9 billion between 2017 and 2022. The bank levy rate will be reduced to 0.1% over the same period. Of course, there is the additional fairness brought by ensuring that the levy affects only UK balance sheets. UK-based banks must never be disincentivised from being based here, rather than being based abroad and operating here. We can make those changes now because of the improvements in global regulation.

Members from all parts of the House should recognise that it is important that we, as politicians, do not become too fixated on the rate of taxation, but rather look at the revenue that is earned. I suggest that this Government have got that balance—that key focus—correct. That is the economic paradox of taxation rates. We heard about the Laffer curve from my hon. Friend the Member for Stirling (Stephen Kerr). If there is 0% tax, 0% taxation is received. If there is 100% tax, 0% taxation is received. The point is where precisely the balance is struck. I suggest that the Government have got it correct.

The measures that we have brought in since 2015 have introduced an additional £7 billion through to 2023, bringing in a total of £30 billion over and above what would have been brought in through corporation tax in any event.

[Peter Dowd]

I am not quite sure that the hon. Gentleman is correct about that, because the Institute for Fiscal Studies states:

“Cuts to corporation tax rates announced between 2010 and 2016 are estimated to reduce revenues by at least £16.5 billion a year in the short to medium run.”

Even the Treasury’s own figures show that the cost has been significant.

[Robert Courts]

I simply do not accept that point, with the greatest of respect to the hon. Gentleman. It is quite clear that the reduction in corporation tax, which I am glad he has mentioned, has led to an increase in revenues over that period. It is accepted that GDP is expected to increase by 1.3% in the long run. The receipts have increased by 50% since the Government have been reducing the corporation tax rate, from £36 billion to £55 billion between 2010 and 2016. That is an increase to £55 billion going to the Exchequer over that period.

--- Later in debate ---

[Robert Courts]

It is exactly the same principle with personal taxation. My hon. Friend makes an absolutely outstanding point. He is quite right and we must not forget that the principle is the same for personal taxation as it is for corporation taxation. Not only is the tax yield increasing, it is also borne by those who earn the most. It is indeed progressive and, I would hope, something all Members could support.

I know other Members wish to speak, so I will conclude with this point. An Opposition Member suggested that no one on the Government Benches has spoken about wages, public services and so on. I would very much like to concentrate on them in these last few seconds of my speech. It is through our tax regime, the sensible taxation policies that this Government have put in place since 2010, that we are now able to see an increase in—

[Peter Dowd]

Given those sensible taxation levels and rates, will the hon. Gentleman explain why productivity is the lowest of all our competitors, inflation is higher than our competitors, wage stagnation is almost becoming endemic, investment is slower, and economic growth is on the floor? If having these so-called lower rates of tax is such a fantastic opportunity for businesses, how come we are still in this particular situation?

[Robert Courts]

I am grateful, as ever, to the hon. Gentleman for making his points. He makes a number of them and it will not surprise him that I do not agree with him. We have record investment, an extraordinary economic miracle and a jobs miracle. We are still having to recover from the economic mess the Labour party left us in. There is absolutely no two ways about it: the Labour party left us with record levels of national debt.

Our economy is seeing an increasingly benign environment. That has been made possible by the sensible taxation measures the Government have allowed to take place and have sponsored. It is through that tax regime that there is more to spend on public services: companies can look to increase wages, hire more staff, pay more tax and thereby fund the public services we all need.