Pension Schemes Bill [Lords]

Rob Roberts Excerpts

2nd reading & 2nd reading: House of Commons & Money resolution & Money resolution: House of Commons & Programme motion & Programme motion: House of Commons
Wednesday 7th October 2020 Commons Chamber

[Rob Roberts (Delyn) (Con)]

As a financial planner for many years, I confirm that for a large majority of the UK population the topic of pensions is something to be avoided and put off to a later date. Looking at the sparseness of today’s call sheet and at the Benches around me, that seems also to be the case for many right hon. and hon. Members. Many UK pensions involve complicated borrowing and are hard to understand, and we cannot all be pension geeks like me and the hon. Member for Stalybridge and Hyde (Jonathan Reynolds).

In April 2006 we went through pension simplification—a misnomer if ever there was one. That was about the time that I was becoming involved in pensions, and if what came out of pension simplification is simple, I would have hated to have worked with what came before. This does not need to be complicated. Pensions are the simplest of things—they are an investment with a tax-efficient wrapper around them. People save for their retirement, with tax benefits as an incentive to do so. It is no more complicated than that.

Other industries have adapted and evolved to suit new technologies as they come up. The banking industry is a great example of that, and it has embraced new technological advances such as online banking. More than 76% of people in the UK now use online banking regularly, compared with just a third of people back in 2007. Just as the banking industry developed to meet the needs of modern society, it is now time for the pension sector to do the same and move into the 21st century, and the Bill seems to be the first step in doing just that.

A recent YouGov survey found that three in five workers have no idea how much they have saved in their pension, and more than a quarter of working age people with a pension say that they never check what is in it. Given the United Kingdom’s increasingly ageing population, it is more important than ever that individuals plan for the future and protect their savings, but currently, there are barriers to doing that.

As I have said in other debates in the House, my main reason for being involved with the Conservative and Unionist party is one of empowerment, and of enabling people to take control of their lives, make better decisions, and shape their own futures. Once again, I am proud to be a member of the party that empowers people to have the freedom and knowledge to make informed choices about their life, and form the retirement that they want and deserve.

The Bill enables people to make better decisions about their pension by giving them access to their pension savings in one place. Like other hon. Members, I support the idea of the pensions dashboard, which will make it much easier for people to see information about their pensions online. By having all their savings in one place, people will be more likely to keep track of them and engage with their pension pot, allowing individuals to understand their pension savings and make better choices along the way.

I remain cautious, however, because a little information can be a bad thing, and I worry a little about individuals who would benefit from professional advice trying to take complex decisions on their own, rather than seeking a properly qualified financial planner. As my hon. Friend the Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme (Aaron Bell) said, on average people have 11 jobs in their lifetime, and under the current auto-enrolment regime, they may have a different pension pot each time. It is therefore hard for people to monitor and keep up to date with their pension savings, to say nothing of the millions of people who have lost track of pensions from jobs they had decades ago.

The Minister and I have had many conversations about pension tracing, and I remain hopeful that because pensions have always been logged by a national insurance number, there is potential within the new dashboard system for a way to proactively inform individuals about pensions that they might have and not be aware of, without them needing to know the details of a job that might have been some significant time ago. According to the Association of British Insurers, 20% of adults admit to having lost a pension pot. The actual figure will be much higher, because some people will not even realise that it has happened. Research suggests that there is almost £20 billion in forgotten pensions; recovering that would be a massive boost for pensioners in these difficult times.

Mr L, for example, visited my office a couple of years ago wanting to access his £50,000 pension to clear the remaining balance of his mortgage and give him a little comfort. After a bit of investigation, we uncovered that he actually had £260,000, and we made a new plan not only to clear the mortgage but for him to retire seven years earlier than planned. That can be a transformative process to go through.

If we want to encourage people to engage with their pensions and their retirement plans, their pensions data needs to be readily available and we need to give them the right to choose how they engage with it, whether that is online, through an app on their phone, through the Money and Pensions Service or, indeed, via their own provider. The right to choose has already been extended to other areas of people’s financial lives. With the creation of a pensions dashboard, that right will finally be extended to pensions, and people will have the freedom to make their own decisions about their future.

I look forward to hearing the Minister’s plans for ensuring that data on multiple pensions cannot be viewed by competitor providers and that people’s personal information remains protected from predatory sales practices. I have some sympathy with the points made by the hon. Member for Airdrie and Shotts (Neil Gray) and others that the MaPS platform should be primary, but I recognise, as my hon. Friend the Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme just mentioned, that innovation often lies in the hands of private firms, normally to the benefit of the consumer.

Moving on from dashboards, the existing pension frameworks—defined-benefit and defined-contribution schemes—can create significant risk and cost for employers on one hand, and do not provide the most predictable retirement income for scheme members on the other. In addition to the dashboard, individuals in some circumstances will be provided with greater freedom of choice through the introduction of collective defined-contribution schemes, which are a better, more affordable and more reliable alternative for both scheme members and employers.

Under those schemes, savers in a company can pool their money collectively in a single fund that pays an annual pension income. By addressing the binary nature of UK pension legislation, the Bill will give individuals greater opportunities to invest in a variety of schemes that benefit them and their needs. As risk is shouldered collectively across the membership rather than by individual members, collective defined-contribution schemes will lead to greater stability and security. That is just another measure that shows that the Government are listening and working with the needs and views of both the industry and our constituents.

Let me touch briefly on charges and costs, which others have mentioned, and sound a note of caution that I hope my hon. Friend the Minister will heed. For many years, there has been a huge focus on costs and charges in pensions, and I worry that it is sometimes skewed the wrong way. I have seen a number of clients over the years who have transferred pension funds into options with much lower charging structures, only to see significantly lower growth. Something with a 1% charge that delivers a 5% return is a much better option than something that has a 0.2% charge but returns only 3%.

I am pleased that the Bill will strengthen the powers of the Pensions Regulator so that members of pension schemes have increased protection for their savings. That gives a fresh set of dentures to a regulator that previously may have lacked a little bite, and it is a welcome reform. Although TPR performs an incredibly important role in protecting workplace pensions and building people’s confidence in retirement saving, there has been a significant change in the industry since its creation in 2005, and it is time that it had some more authority, so I am glad that the Bill will update its role and powers so that it is fit to meet the needs of pensions in the 21st century.

The regulator will have greater powers to deter reckless behaviour, such as extended information-gathering powers, and new civil and criminal sanctions will be introduced. If we are to encourage people to save in their pensions for their future, it is right that they should feel confident that their savings will be protected by a robust regulatory structure. The measures in the Bill will build important trust in pension schemes and put consumer interests first.

Ultimately, the Bill showcases the heart of the Conservative and Unionist Government’s values: empowerment, freedom and choice. It will give people the freedom to make informed decisions about their future, the ability to choose where to save their pension and the confidence to make the right decision about their future and retirement, knowing that it will be protected, and I am pleased to support it.

In closing, may I also take a moment to say on my behalf—and I am sure, on behalf of hon. and right hon. Members from all parts of the House—how pleased we all are to see my hon. Friend the Minister at the Dispatch Box after his recent tragic loss? I know the whole House was devastated to hear his news, and we hope that he and his partner are doing well. Others have paid tribute to his passion and assiduity in preparing the Bill, and I add my voice to their praise.

[Duncan Baker (North Norfolk) (Con)]

It is an honour to follow the self-confessed pension geek and guru that is my hon. Friend the Member for Delyn (Rob Roberts). I hope that when I come to draw my pension, it is revealed, as in the story of his constituent, that it is actually five times greater than I ever expected it to be. I am sure it was all down to the wonderful advice that was given.

[Rob Roberts]

Past performance is no indication of future guaranteed performance. The small print says so quite clearly.

[Duncan Baker]

If I wrote a headline for this Bill, it would be something along the lines of, “If you want to save the planet, start a pension.” That would chime very well with my hon. Friend the Member for West Worcestershire (Harriett Baldwin), who is encouraging young people to start a pension, as I am myself, but in a roundabout way, this Bill does just that. While the thought of pensions may give rise to a tendency for many to glaze over and think about things another day, this piece of legislation is a welcome move. That is proven by the wide base of support. As the Minister has been roundly thanked, I will applaud him and add my thanks, because this is a really great piece of legislation.

While I cannot profess to having the same level of knowledge as some Members in the Chamber today, I was in a former life a finance director, and I recall feeling some dread when auto-enrolment first arrived. I remember bemoaning the scheme, which at the time was more expensive to administer than the meaningful contributions that an employee would pay in when the rates were so low. How those cynics were wrong, including me, because its success speaks for itself. We now have more than 10 million workers in an auto-enrolment scheme in this country. People did not opt out when the contributions increased. Nearly 90% of eligible employees participate in a workplace pension now.

With an ageing population, the need to save for one’s retirement is in anyone’s view vitally necessary, much like many of the constituent parts of the Bill. Auto-enrolment has created inertia to save. It trusts people to think about their retirement, but the next stage is to bring back control—this is why the Bill is so good and important—so that people know what they have and where it is. As the old saying goes, “If you cannot measure it, you cannot manage it”, and for that reason I wholeheartedly welcome the implementation of the pension dashboard in the Bill.

It is a common fact—we have heard it many times today—that people lose control of their pension pots. People move jobs many times throughout their career. We have heard it is about 11 times on average, and there is some £20 billion in pension pots that people no longer necessarily know the location of. The dashboard is a progressive and necessary step in continually improving our pension system and empowering people to know what they have and where it is, not to mention beneficial for pension companies and contributors given that we are always told how small pots are not the most beneficial or economically efficient. What is more, the Bill gives clarity, transparency and support to help make people make informed decisions.

I welcome clause 125. We have heard time and again of the dreadful and immoral scams to which people have sadly fallen victim. For many, pension savings are their largest financial asset. If someone falls victim to a scam, their loss can be just shy of £100,000. Adequate restrictions to protect consumers with a layer of due diligence and a red flag are a sensible brake, which will help to avoid such repercussions.

I welcome the introduction of collective defined-contribution schemes. CDCs create a collective pot from which everyone who owns and shares the fund can benefit, and we are already hearing welcoming noises about that. The Bill provides legislation and the regulatory framework for new collective money purchase schemes and, as such, it helps to widen the desire for alternative collective arrangements.

But back to saving the planet. Clause 124 represents a hugely significant step, and it is in tune with the speech that the Prime Minister gave yesterday. Climate change continues, quite rightly, to take centre stage in so much of our legislative agenda. This is the first pensions Bill ever to mention climate change. Pension trustees must now consider climate change as financially material to members’ investments. Under the regulations of the taskforce on climate-related financial disclosures, schemes must consider the response to climate change as both a risk and an opportunity in their governance risk management strategy, and they must publish that information.

When we think of the billions upon billions invested in pension funds, we can see that allowing pension schemes and the market to embrace the green agenda will enable people to put their own savings into helping us to achieve net zero. Perhaps for the first time ever—even if we never quite thought we would say this—saving for our retirement can now be seen as saving the planet as well.

Pension Schemes Bill [ Lords ] (Second sitting)

Rob Roberts Excerpts

Committee stage & Committee Debate: 2nd sitting: House of Commons
Tuesday 3rd November 2020 Public Bill Committees

That would build on the success of the Labour Lords in leading the Government to amend the Bill in the House of Lords with regard to other areas of environmental and climate change reporting. We also support amendment 15, which seeks to add to the dashboard a person’s pension age and any related information regarding recent changes.

[Rob Roberts (Delyn) (Con)]

It is a pleasure to be able to speak to clause 118 and discuss the related amendments. I am delighted finally to be here. I am sure that my hon. Friend the Minister will not thank me for pointing out that it was the Budget speech in 2016 that said that we would have a fully functioning dashboard by 2019. We got there in the end, or we are getting there in the end. I am delighted that we are making progress.

It is very important for everyone to remember—I failed to do so and have caused a lot of hair pulling for the Minister and his team over the last few weeks—that the Bill seeks to lay out the foundation, the framework, for the data standards that will be adopted and is not necessarily about getting bogged down in the minutiae of what the dashboard will look like in the end and the final functionality of it. We live in an information age. The watchwords of both the Pensions Regulator and the Financial Conduct Authority for at least the last decade have been all about informed decisions. Pensions are a vital part of anyone’s life and they need to catch up with the rest of the world. We risk non-engagement from this and future generations if we cannot give them the information that they want in the manner in which they want it.

Auto-enrolment has been an amazing thing and has seen millions more people saving in pensions. We have a complacency risk coming down the line; people think that where we are with auto-enrolment is going to be sufficient to get them the retirement they dream of. We run the risk of that not necessarily always being the case, but that is another story for another day.

Auto-enrolment has led to multiple pots over many people’s working lives. How do we track those? How do we service them? How do we maximise their value? How difficult is it now for consumers to be able to look at all of those different pots and understand how they relate to each other and what that is going to mean for them at the end of the day?

I was delighted that about six weeks ago the Minister put in place a small pots working group, which will be very useful in understanding where to go in relation to small pots. There are currently 8 million or so in the UK, with the expectation that by 2035 that will have gone up to around 27 million. It is a huge issue that needs addressing. The biggest problem with small pots is their erosion over time due to the effect of charges. We definitely need to address that issue in some way.

On the amendments, I start with Government amendment 7. The ability to conduct transactions is not inherently bad and there are already safeguards in regulations. To rule out every type of transaction in primary legislation feels heavy-handed.

In Committee in the Lords, Earl Howe said:

“It is of course very important that individuals access advice and guidance before making decisions on undertaking significant pensions transactions.”—[Official Report, House of Lords, 2 March 2020; Vol. 802, c. GC207.]

I completely agree with the noble Earl. The regulations are in place around what is significant; it is the word “significant” that is key. There is no need to rule out everything in primary legislation. Why go to all the trouble of informing people about what they have got, if we do not give them any means of interacting with it?

Financial transactions could be to increase or decrease a contribution level or make a one-off lump sum payment. How empowering it would be for the consumer to be able to do that and look, in real time, at the impact of those changes on the end result. We must not restrict the ability to make any transactions; regulations around what transactions should be allowed are already there and will undoubtedly be strengthened in further regulations down the line.

Talk about people losing the safeguards around DB schemes or being moved into DC are wildly off the mark. That cannot be done now, so why on earth would anyone be able to do it just because we change from paper transactions to making transactions through the dashboard? We do not allow it now; why would we allow it in future? It is a ludicrous and scaremongering suggestion, and I do not like it.

Amendments 1, 2 and 15 are not relevant. The dashboard should show what people are going to get, not what they would have got if the rules were different or they had not changed or the Government had not changed this or that policy. It is supposed to be an accurate picture of what someone is actually going to get, at that time. Seeing multiple sets of figures, only one of which is correct and actually relevant to what they are going to get, would just cause confusion for the consumer.

Unfortunately, as many people have let out of the bag, the amendment on the state pension age and the WASPI women in particular was tabled specifically to highlight a campaign issue and the unfairness of a Government policy decision. It cannot be good law and it will create a horrible precedent, however well-meaning the amendment might be, to put such provisions in primary legislation. I hesitate to say it, but it feels a little like tabling amendments to incite dissatisfaction in previous Government policy, but I am sure that hon. Members would never seek to do that.

The Minister said in his opening remarks everything that I had written down on amendments 4 and 5. I found amendment 14 very interesting. People who are concerned with environmental, social and corporate governance targets will always seek them out, and always have done. We do not need to force that information on people who do not want it. Believe it or not, plenty of people think that their pension is something to provide them with an income in retirement, not necessarily a tool to solve the ills of society.

There are consumers who want that level of detail, and they will undoubtedly be able to select the dashboard provider that meets their needs and gives them all the information that they want, but there is no need to make that happen in primary legislation because the market will work itself out and the people who want that information will be able to access it via other providers.

[Seema Malhotra]

I understand that the hon. Member is concerned about the provision of information, but can he see a downside to it being there?

[Rob Roberts]

No, but I also do not see a downside to lots of other types of information being there, so why this type and not others? The purpose of primary legislation should not necessarily be to say all the things that should be there. Lots of things potentially should be there, but that does not mean that they have to be there, and prescribing that they must be there does not really fit in.

[Seema Malhotra]

I understand that, but the information is designed to assist in decision making, and may be helpful for those who are reviewing their pensions. In the context of much change across society and concern about such issues, does the hon. Member agree that that information may be helpful to those who want to base decisions on ESG information, and has no downside for those who do not?

[Rob Roberts]

That may be, but as I mentioned earlier, it muddies the waters. If people want to access that information, there is a slew of providers out there. If they want the one that provides the most ESG information, they will gravitate towards it. We do not need to override the general public’s ability to make an informed choice by legislating to make it happen. As I mentioned earlier, “informed choices” are the big words. The ability to go that way should be entirely left in the hands of the consumer.

As I said, the Minister mentioned everything that I wanted to on amendments 4 and 5, but I reiterate that I am very happy to see the pensions dashboard finally taking a few steps closer towards completion. Hopefully the clause will stand part of the Bill.

[Ms Angela Eagle (Wallasey) (Lab)]

It is a pleasure to see you in the Chair this afternoon, Mr Robertson, after the dynamic chairing from your colleague this morning; we made a lot of progress. I will make some observations about dashboards, and talk particularly about Government amendment 7, which, as colleagues know, removes the Drake amendment that was added in the other place. However, I will first comment on how potentially beneficial a good working pensions dashboard coming into existence would be for many millions of pensioners looking to plan for their retirement.

Many of us who have been involved in pensions policy making—in Opposition, in Government or both—know that the holy grails in this area are: first, to get people to think about pension saving in the first place; secondly, to get people, especially when they are younger, to think that they may ever reach retirement age, and to start planning for what their income might be when they get there; and thirdly, having established from a young age that interest in considering what their income will be when they are older and in setting money aside to ensure that they have a secure income, to ask them to navigate the current pensions landscape in the UK, which is asking an awful lot of most of our citizens, because it is extremely complicated and changes over time. We have the confluence of many different sorts of pension availability, from the much more effective DB schemes, which used to be more common but in which 10 million people still have savings, it has to be pointed out, to the evolving and developing DC and individual savings schemes.

--- Later in debate ---

[Ms Eagle]

I want to briefly add some emphasis to the points made by my hon. Friend the Member for Feltham and Heston from the Front Bench. This is really a battle between those who like to add horrendously high charges, in very small print, and transparency so that people can make decisions in possession of the right kind of information. Surely enabling that transparency is at the heart of what the pensions dashboard is all about. Financial services, particularly things like pensions, have always featured a uniquely complex, difficult and opaque pricing system, which can often eat away significantly at the money that people who are investing can expect to live on when they retire.

Thankfully, trail commission has now been abolished, at least to my knowledge, but it has been replaced with other opaque pricing systems that take people’s money away. The hon. Member for Delyn was right to say that pots that are very small are being eaten away by charges. Most people who put money into pots would have had no real knowledge or understanding of the price of keeping that money there, because it would not have been up front in the information; it would have been hidden away in hundreds or perhaps thousands of pages of tiny print.

The amendments, which I fully support, are all about getting price and cost transparency on the dashboard, which was clearly created to include such information. I will not understand it at all if the Minister has reasons for not doing so.

[Rob Roberts]

I rise to speak briefly to amendments 11, 12 and 13. I did not mention it earlier, but the general problem with small pots being eroded away by charges, especially in the auto-enrolment phase, is that many of them have set charges in pounds rather than percentage-based charges. If someone has 10 pots of £1,000 and they all have the same percentage charging structure, the charges will be exactly the same as one scheme with £10,000 in it; what causes the problem is that some schemes have a set charge in pounds per year.

Unfortunately, an awful lot of the time we focus too much on the cost of plans and the impact of charges: the principal-based tail is wagging the outcome-based dog. It is the outcome that is most important, because people cannot spend the principal; they spend the outcome. That is easily illustrated: if scheme A has a 0.5% charge and a return of 5% a year, and scheme B has a 1% charge and a return of 7% a year, scheme B is a better scheme despite having a higher charge. It is not the charging that is important.

The hon. Member for Wallasey mentioned people who will be put off from investing in schemes that are looted and abused in such ways. She was 100% correct; there were many nods on both sides of the Committee Room at the idea that that would put people off. Focusing too much on charges also potentially puts people off. It is worrying and scary, and potentially angers the consumer, who would not understand the figure for the total charges if it is expressed in a significant way. If we say, “Over the lifetime of your plan, you will incur £30,000-worth of charges,” without some kind of explanation or context showing what that relates to, people will see that as excessive and ridiculous.

[Neil Gray]

I do not think it is fair to characterise this as a focus just on charges. New clause 11 contains an idea for how small pots can be managed, in terms of the unintended consequences of automatic enrolment. I struggle to understand the rationale of the hon. Gentlemen’s argument about the lack of transparency being provided to consumers and enabling them to take informed decisions about the plans they enter into. I do not see the logic of suggesting that hiding that or allowing schemes to continue putting it in the small print is beneficial to consumers.

[Rob Roberts]

I am not necessarily advocating a lack of transparency; I am advocating a focus on the outcome, rather than on every element of the journey along the way. There are lots of things that we currently do not talk about, in terms of the costs and charges. We look at the costs and charges of the scheme in general, and it is not necessarily a requirement for the costs and charges of the individual funds that make up the scheme to be included in those calculations. There are lots of things that could be included in there, but it is the outcome that is important, not necessarily the minute detail of every element along the way.

[Richard Thomson (Gordon) (SNP)]

I do not think anyone would disagree that overall it is the outcome that is important, but historically the trouble is that consumers have often been encouraged to look at outcomes that may or may not have been realistic over an extended period of investment, and have not had the full awareness that they ought to have had of the charges. Surely as part of educating the consumer we should be drawing their attention to the charges and helping them to understand them in the context of everything that is important. If we want engaged, informed consumers, surely we should not be telling them not to worry their little heads about the charges; we should be making it transparent and open.

--- Later in debate ---

[Rob Roberts]

I understand the hon. Gentleman’s point, but it is for the regulator to determine how projections are shown and what information the individual requires to make an informed decision. It does not necessarily belong in primary legislation. It should come later, and the regulator should implement it. I understand that point, but amendments 11, 12 and 13 would all do exactly the same thing: they all focus on the wrong things, when I believe we should be focusing on the outcomes.

[Guy Opperman]

I hope to be able to bring some agreed consensus on this. Colleagues will be aware, because they have read the Bill in great detail, that subsection (2)(a)(iii) on page 108 sets out what pensions information should be provided. It includes

“the rights and obligations that arise or may arise under the scheme”.

It is very much the case that individual costs are already envisaged as being part of the clause and the scheme.

I will explain why I will resist this amendment. First, the context is that it is already in the Bill. Secondly, if I have not made it sufficiently clear in the past, I am happy to make it clear today that we anticipate that costs and charges should be a part of dashboards in the future, but the question is when and how? There is common ground that in the longer term, there should be an understanding of what individuals are being charged for the service they are being provided. There is a much wider debate, which we have tried to have to the best of our ability, about how it is that a pension is run and then the individual is burdened with individual costs, depending on the nature of the different schemes.

I am very clear that, first, I consider the provision otiose because it is already within the confines of the Bill. Secondly, it is the Government’s intention that costs and charges should be part of dashboards in the future. Thirdly, we value transparency. Lord knows I started this morning with the point that simpler statements are being introduced. Contrary to what the hon. Member for Wallasey said, simpler statements will include costs and charges.