Counter-Terrorism and Sentencing Bill (First sitting)

Rob Butler Excerpts

Committee stage & Committee Debate: 1st sitting: House of Commons
Thursday 25th June 2020 Public Bill Committees

[The Chair]

Thank you very much. Rob Butler.

[Rob Butler (Aylesbury) (Con)]

Q It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Robertson.

Mr Hall, can I address the young adult age group? It has also been referred to by the Opposition. If we accept that there are different questions of maturity, do you also accept that the 18 to 20 age group can be incredibly dangerous?

Jonathan Hall: Yes, and it is not only people who are over 18. It seems to be a phenomenon at the moment. If you think about what is available on the internet, and if you bring in issues such as mental health, young people can be very dangerous. As you know, there was the so-called Anzac Day plot involving a very young person.

[Rob Butler]

Q I was on the Youth Justice Board at the time, so I am very familiar with that case. You note that there is provision in the Bill for the under-18s, as judges will have more discretion on sentencing. You have expressed some reservations about the young adult age group—either 18 to 20, or 18 to 24, depending on how one decides to define maturity. As you have highlighted, there is some debate about what that age group should be. What would be an appropriate balance between safeguarding the possibility of people maturing out of offending while still ensuring the safety of the general public?

Jonathan Hall: A sceptical Parole Board. Sometimes people look at the Parole Board and see early release. It is certainly correct that the Parole Board would have the power to grant early release, but it often does not release people.

[Rob Butler]

Q So are you suggesting an exceptional case for that young adult cohort—that they should be eligible for Parole Board consideration where older adults are not? That is what I am trying to clarify.

Jonathan Hall: Yes, I think that would be a legitimate policy choice for Parliament. Can I just clarify one thing? You have the serious terrorism sentence, where the judge’s power is to pass one of these only for people who are 18 or over. In my notes, I have made some points about the 18 to 21 age group. You also have people who are not subject to those orders, but who are dangerous and have been convicted of offences that carry a maximum of life. For those people, including people below the age of 18, the Parole Board role disappears. One choice would be to say that if people are under 18, the Parole Board ought to retain a role.

[The Chair]

Thank you. Julie Marson.

--- Later in debate ---

[Joanna Cherry]

That is quite an important statement: there is no case so far where the current standard of proof has prevented an application for a TPIM. Thank you.

[Rob Butler]

Q Assistant Chief Constable, we have heard, and probably all accept, that young people can be immature and easily led, but would the police view also be that they can be extremely dangerous?

Tim Jacques: Absolutely. Sadly, we have seen—you have mentioned the case that is within my background knowledge—very recent examples of very young people who pose an extreme risk to the public. It is sad, but it is real and it is true.

[Rob Butler]

Q And consequently there is a need for legislation around sentencing that reflects that.

Tim Jacques: We would absolutely say that, yes.

[Rob Butler]

Q Can you describe a little bit, from your policing perspective, the increased threat that you are seeing, from both under-18s and young adults aged 18 to either 21or 24?

Tim Jacques: We can see and we have seen not just the case that goes back a few years but, certainly within the recent past, a number of, and a worrying increase in, young people engaging in terrorism of different forms and posing a real threat to the public. It is shocking, in one sense, that you see people of such a young age and the maturity with which they carry out their activity, and the hate-filled ideologies that inspire them at such a young age, but it is real.

[Rob Butler]

Q So while it is very important that the police are able to engage with young people in a way that is constructive, it is also important that the police can keep all young people safe from the threat posed by other young people.

Tim Jacques: Yes, absolutely. As I said earlier, we are there to do both. We protect the public by both measures: prosecution and criminal justice means, if that is needed—which can lead to desistance and disengagement programmes—and measures before that. If we can dissuade and reduce and prevent people from getting to that stage, that is a good option for us as well—if it keeps the public safe.

[The Chair]

Thank you.