Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Fifteenth sitting)

Rebecca Paul Excerpts

Committee stage
Wednesday 26th February 2025 Public Bill Committees

[Stephen Kinnock]

It is the view of the Government that this is a new piece of legislation that introduces a new type of engagement between somebody who meets the conditions and criteria set out in clause 1, and medical practitioners and other experts, as set out in the Bill. I am not quite sure what the hon. Gentleman is driving at. I do not know whether he wants to get into a discussion about the definition of the word “treatment”. It is absolutely clear that this Bill introduces changes into the system, including a new part of the conversation that would take place between medical practitioners and patients who have less than six months to live.

[Rebecca Paul (Reigate) (Con)]

The Minister has used the word “new” several times, and that is the crux of our argument: this is a new approach and a new process. Does the Minister agree that it warrants a different, more robust approach to looking at capacity?

[Stephen Kinnock]

It is the Government’s view that, even though the Bill is introducing something new, introducing new and potentially parallel legal frameworks would not improve its clarity or workability. In essence, the Government’s view is that we bring forward legislation; if that legislation passes, we bring forward regulations; and we then bring forward training and capacity-building to ensure that we ultimately have a system that is operational.

The Government do not accept the argument that bringing forward a new parallel framework of legislation at the first step would improve the workability and operationalisation of the Bill. My role as Minister on this Committee is to talk about the fact that the Bill needs to be workable, operational and legally watertight. The Government’s general view is that if we have a legislative base that, in our view, works—namely, the Mental Capacity Act 2005—we should not add more complexity into it.

--- Later in debate ---

[Rebecca Paul]

I thank the Minister for explaining that. Does he recognise that what is being said today is that operational reasons are driving the decision we make with respect to capacity? We are talking about a decision for someone to end their life. Does he not think that that would absolutely warrant us doing something that might be slightly more difficult operationally, and taking a two-tier approach? A lot of Members have spoken about our amazing medical practitioners and how capable they are; does the Minister not recognise that those amazing medical practitioners could cope with two sets of frameworks?

[Stephen Kinnock]

That goes back to what I was saying earlier, which is that this is fundamentally a judgment call: do we make the system more robust, resilient and effective by adding more complexity and bringing in a new and parallel legislative framework, or is it best to work with a legislative framework that is well established and well understood by practitioners, and then to enhance that through regulations and training? It is the Government’s view that the latter is a more effective way of doing this legislation, but I accept that the hon. Members who have tabled this group of amendments clearly would not agree with that analysis.

--- Later in debate ---

[Stephen Kinnock]

Indeed: common law, jurisprudence and whatever a professional body might take as a steer for delivery. It is then about the professional judgment of the professional body.

[Rebecca Paul]

Should the Government not be neutral on what framework for capacity the Committee might like to apply?

[Stephen Kinnock]

The Government are neutral on the Bill—the Government do not take a view on the substantial philosophical, ethical and moral policy considerations—but we do advise, and are advising, the Committee on the implications for the legislative framework of amendments that have been tabled. In a sense, we are not neutral in respect of whether we think that if an amendment were to be made, it would have very significant operational impacts that could potentially affect the workability of the Bill. We are duty-bound to advise the Committee of our position on that.

[Rebecca Paul]

You mentioned various moral issues that you are not commenting on, but in reality the decision on this increases the number of people who would be considered to have capacity. I suggest that that might not actually be a neutral position to take; it has a broader impact.

[The Chair]

Order. I remind the hon. Member that I am “you”.

[Rebecca Paul]

I am so sorry, Mrs Harris.

[Stephen Kinnock]

Without knowing the exact implications for the number of people who the hon. Member mentioned, it is difficult to answer her question, but fundamentally the Government’s position on every aspect of the Bill is to be clear that we want the Bill Committee to make informed decisions. Those informed decisions should be based on whether the Government think that amendments to the Bill would have a positive or negative impact on its workability and the legal framework. We also have to ensure that we protect the integrity of the statute book.