Technical and Further Education Bill (Second sitting)

Ranil Jayawardena Excerpts

Committee Debate: 2nd sitting: House of Commons
Tuesday 22nd November 2016 Public Bill Committees

[Gordon Marsden]

Thank you.

[Mr Ranil Jayawardena (North East Hampshire) (Con)]

Q I refer Members to my entry in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests; I used to work for Lloyds Banking Group and spent time in corporate banking, dealing for a time with education, community and government customers. I will come to Lloyds in a moment, but first, Mr Jones, you said in your written evidence to the Committee that you think that this is a positive step and that lenders will have certainty. Can you explain the uncertainty that exists to you as a lender today?

Gareth Jones: From Santander’s perspective, the uncertainty has always been around the funding agencies and, when a college is struggling to make its payments, effectively where that interim funding will come from. There is also uncertainty about whether the current insolvency applies to college corporations at present. From a risk perspective, when we assess the underlying risk of a transaction, there has always been that uncertainty and we have had to make assumptions in the background. If the Bill is passed, the certainty it will provide is positive for us.

[Mr Jayawardena]

Q Despite what Mr Robinson said a moment ago about the challenges in the sector, if I understand what you said, Mr Jones, after you, as Santander, have done that analysis of the credit risk, you would like to lend more into the further education sector.

Gareth Jones: Yes.

[Mr Jayawardena]

Q Mr Meddelton, given what Mr Jones said, why do you say that this proposal presents banks with such significant challenges? Surely the certainty that Mr Jones just outlined is a good thing.

Richard Meddelton: Certainly to have a framework, as proposed, is a positive step. The issue for us is to do with the powers that the administration would have under a special administration regime. For example, if we were a secured creditor and the college went into an SAR, what could happen—I appreciate it is a “could”, and that it is untested—is that the administrator could run the college for what I think is an undefined period, unless I have misunderstood the drafting, and it could be at a loss, notwithstanding the fact that some very laudable principles are driving this.

As a lender, the ranking—again, it is unclear at the moment—may well sit behind a creditor. In addition, as we interpret it, even as a secured creditor the security could be transferred into a separate entity. Again, I understand the practical considerations for that, but at the same time the debt could be left in the old college, or it could be transferred. Again, there are “know you customer”—colloquially, we tend to call them KYC—considerations.

[Mr Jayawardena]

Q But you also said in your written submission that Lloyds traditionally viewed this as quasi-Government risk. That is your own internal credit rating of this sector, and that is based on your own judgment. Surely when it comes to determining whether, to use your words, there should be further long-term decisions and long-term lending in this sector, that would again be a matter of using your own credit rating and credit risk process. More certainty is provided under this proposal than you currently have. You said that you assume that that option would be for the failing college to be financed by Government funding, but there is no guarantee of that today, so surely you are better off.

Richard Meddelton: There is no guarantee of that today, but under the current system if we have security, we have priority. The reality is that we have viewed it as quasi-Government because in the past—obviously the past is no prediction of the future—that money has been forthcoming, as you know, having worked in Lloyds corporate yourself. If there were greater clarity about what would actually be done in a special administration regime, that would obviously give us some comfort.

[Mr Jayawardena]

Q One final point, if I may: Lloyds has set out that it wants to “help Britain prosper”. You have challenged the SAR regime, which could lead a college to be administered in a separate regime for a period of time. You would, I am sure, agree that it is right for students to be able to finish their studies and not face disruption, because that would not be to the values that you hold dear.

Richard Meddelton: Yes. I appreciate that it is a dichotomy, but yes.

[Mr Jayawardena]

Q Can I ask Mr Jones and Mr Robinson a yes/no question? Under the current system, you would not want to close down a college and sell off their assets even if you did have security today, because you would want to allow those students to continue their education. That is the right thing to do, is it not?

Richard Robinson: The interest of the learners has to come first.

Gareth Jones: I completely agree.

Richard Meddelton: We said in our response that we would see the interest of the lender as coming first.

[Mr Jayawardena]

Q So Lloyds Banking Group, today, would sell off a college site even if people were in the middle of their A-levels and needed to complete their courses.

Richard Meddelton: I think that is highly unlikely. The reality is that we would always work with the college, with the administrator. Our history has been that of a responsible lender, helping Britain to prosper, and that will continue, regardless of the site.

[Mr Jayawardena]

Q So ultimately all three of you are in agreement that a college today would continue in existence until you had unwound the whole of the financials behind it and had found a solution in the interest of the learners and that, in the future, the same would be true.

Richard Robinson: The difference is that at the moment we have experience of what happens when colleges get into difficulty. Our experience today is that we, as lenders, work with the agencies—the SFA and the EFA—to find a solution. The Government have put money into those situations. We are now saying that we will allow colleges to become insolvent, and that we will put an insolvency regime in place that rightly puts students first. We absolutely agree about that, but the difference is that we have no experience of what happens in that case. Therefore, we have to try to make lending decisions today that will apply in the future, when the regime is in place, and we do not know whether they will apply because the regime is not tried and tested.

[Mr Jayawardena]

Q Mr Harris, this question is for you, given your expertise. At the moment, the banks are saying they have no understanding of what would happen in the future but they do know what happens today. But what happens today is based on a bit of a guess, a bit of luck and a bit of Government funding coming in. Perhaps the situation will be clearer to banks in the future, but surely having this clear framework set out in law is a good thing?

Stephen Harris: I feel that very cogent points could be made in saying it is a good thing. In an insolvency environment that is unclear, because you start to add in a peppering of trusts and unusual organisations and things that are not necessarily the bread and butter of corporate insolvency, when colleges start to get into difficulty the legal bill starts to rise, as people have to seek clarity about how the matter will legally be dealt with. In the draft Bill, an element of clarity is brought to the sector as a whole, which in the long term people might appreciate. I cannot speak on behalf of the banks, but I can see that there is a lot of clarity in the Bill about what is a very specialised sector.

[Mr Jayawardena]

Thank you.

[Kelvin Hopkins (Luton North) (Lab)]

Q I will give a bit of background first. For 23 of the past 25 years I have been a governor of a sixth-form college and, before incorporation, I was chair of governors of a larger college of higher education, which was largely FE. In the sixth-form college we had internal expertise of the highest order. The previous experience was less good. I have said many times now that one of the important things for a governing body is for it to have accountancy expertise, with at least two independent qualified accountants and at least two independent legally qualified people. That makes a difference. In the college I am at now, the vice-principal in charge of finances is a chartered accountant and does a superb job.

Do you take an interest in the internal financial controls of colleges or do you just say, “Well, if they get into difficulty, we’ve got the security of the college assets and we’ll just take some of that”? Do you take an active interest or stipulate any kind of requirement about how finances are managed internally in the colleges?

Richard Robinson: Absolutely, yes. The quality of management and governance is one of the key criteria we look at when we are assessing the risk. We do not just lend the money and then disappear; this is a relationship for us. We go and see our college clients several times a year to talk about what is happening in their business and the challenges to the sector.

One thing we do is help management with their skill sets. For example, what has happened in the sector over the past couple of years, with the challenges it has faced, is new to a lot of managers. It has been quite difficult to manage through that process. We bring to bear the experience we have of dealing with lots of businesses to help them with that process.

We have often pointed out that maybe they do need some different experience on the board—people with different skill sets. I agree that there should be governors with a diverse set of experiences. That should definitely include accountants, as having people with financial literacy is very important.

Gareth Jones: Our approach is very much the same as Barclays, in the sense that the governance structure of the college, the key management team and our appraisals make us consider our overall lender proposal and whether we are willing to advance funds to that college. Fundamentally, it is the management who are in control of the college and their strength is strategically important to our lending decision.

Technical and Further Education Bill (Sixth sitting)

Ranil Jayawardena Excerpts

Committee Debate: 6th sitting: House of Commons
Tuesday 29th November 2016 Public Bill Committees

[Gordon Marsden]

As I was saying, on clauses 2 to 12—we will obviously proceed to the second part of the Bill, which deals, in schedule 3, with the important issue of the innovation of education administrators—it is important to understand why the Government have to address these issues at this time. The reality is that these insolvency rules are important to protect, above all, students and those in colleges. Colleges are crucial for providing further education nationally and have an important local presence. When colleges have financial difficulties, that can affect many stakeholders, including students, employers, lenders, the funding and oversight bodies and the local communities in which they are situated. Colleges are, quintessentially, locally based and respond to local employment and skill needs. That is why they have been successful over the years in being able to adapt, sometimes in a rather more nimble fashion than universities—although there are community-based universities that resemble FE colleges in their output and remit more than they do traditional universities.

The reality is that the FE sector has experienced a prolonged period of funding cuts. The House of Commons Library briefing shows the scale of the reduction in funding: in adult further education and skills, funding fell from a 2010 baseline of

“£3.18 billion to £2.94 billion in 2015-16, a reduction of 8% in cash terms or 14% in real terms.”

The financial health of the FE college sector has been declining since 2010-11. There was a deficit in the sector in 2013 for the first time, and 110 colleges recorded an operating deficit. The number of colleges assessed by the Skills Funding Agency as having inadequate financial health rose from 12 to 29 in the same period. That decline in the sector’s financial health is one of the things that has fuelled what the Government have said here today.

We have already referred to the searing report produced by the National Audit Office in 2015, and I do not intend to go into detail on that again. It is obvious, and not an open secret, that the Treasury has insisted on a robust insolvency scheme as part of the quid pro quo for the additional funding that has gone into the sector. That is the reason for the profusion of these clauses in the Bill.

[Mr Ranil Jayawardena (North East Hampshire) (Con)]

Is it not also true that, from the evidence received, banks would welcome this certainty? The position for them is currently unclear, and that could help them lend more to the sector, which is invaluable in helping our students.

[Gordon Marsden]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his intervention, and for the penetrating questions he put to the witnesses. Hopefully that will be a by-product of the process, and that is entirely right. I am also bound to observe that there are other factors pushing it down this route. One of those other factors is the underlying financial weakness of the sector. When the further education commissioner gave evidence—he talked of 82 or 84 colleges in a merger position—he was, to be blunt, far more optimistic and gung-ho about the outcome of those mergers than I would be. From memory, some other members of the Committee expressed a different point of view. The truth of mergers is that they do not always work out well, and this was commented on by Mr Pretty from the Collab Group. He made those observations based on his own experience. There are a number of factors here. Changing priorities in public funding is a reduction, it is how some colleges have struggled with large debts or partially completed capital investment projects. The latter partly reflects weaknesses in the planning and financing of capital projects under the former Learning and Skills Council.

Technical and Further Education Bill (Seventh sitting)

Ranil Jayawardena Excerpts

Committee Debate: 7th sitting: House of Commons
Thursday 1st December 2016 Public Bill Committees

[Robert Halfon]

Will the hon. Lady allow me to think about that example? We will consider transfer schemes in detail later, but I do not think the issue she highlights would arise. The transfer schemes are particularly about looking after the students and establishing who the provider is if the existing college management are no longer looking after the students. There might be a different provider, but we will come on to that point later in our consideration.

[Mr Ranil Jayawardena (North East Hampshire) (Con)]

Is not the point, as we heard in the evidence from the banks, that some banks may take a view that they should realise their security? The provision allows for learners to be prioritised in any transfer or land, property and so on, so that that is to their interests. They should come first.

[Robert Halfon]

My hon. Friend has it exactly right. He asked that question in our evidence sessions, and one of the banks said, “No, our whole purpose is to act in the interest of the lenders.” The whole purpose of this provision, however, is to act in the students’ interest. Creditors will get a fair deal, but one that is in the interest of students.

I will come on to transfer schemes in a minute. The area review mergers are different, but it is important to quote Richard Atkins, the FE Commissioner, from the evidence session. He said:

“Mergers do not necessarily mean the closure of sites, so they do not mean the end of provision for students locally. Clearly, in rural areas, for example, the history of the sector has been that provision has not gone even when there have been mergers. When Truro and Penwith came together, that did not end provision in Penzance. In fact, it regenerated the provision in Penzance to a higher standard. You can see that across the country.”

I accept he is talking about area reviews, but he went on to say:

“The idea that you close provision down in a particular district, borough or town is not something I would be in favour of at all. I would be looking for merger solutions that bring together back-room services, avoid duplication and so on.”––[Official Report, Technical and Further Education Public Bill Committee, 22 November 2016; c. 26, Q34.]

This will not always be the case, but it is important to say that a merger does not necessarily mean the closure of provision in an area.

--- Later in debate ---

[Robert Halfon]

I again thank the hon. Gentleman for his remarks and his thoughtful amendment. I not only understand the concerns but, when looking at the Bill in the early stages, asked those questions myself. I hope that I can reassure him. I will answer some parts of what he said and then go into the substance, if I may.

On a point of clarification, it will be for the Secretary of State or the Welsh Minister to decide whether to apply for an education administration order, but they can do so only if the FE body is insolvent in accordance with the definition in clause 17—if it is unable or unlikely to pay the debt. It does not happen automatically.

The hon. Member for Blackpool South will know that insolvency practitioners are very qualified individuals—usually accountants or insolvency specialists. Practitioners with experience in FE and education do exist; I met one only a few days ago who happens to work for the Skills Funding Agency, to talk through these very issues. However, we must make it clear that according to the laws of insolvency, only insolvency practitioners can legally act as office holders in insolvency proceedings—liquidators, administrators and administrative receivers of companies. They are regulated through the Insolvency Act 1986.

The key qualification of the insolvency practitioner to deal with an insolvent college is their expertise with respect to a business or non-profit-making organisation that is insolvent. There are special administrative regimes in other areas such as utilities and the postal service. In addition, they can draw on the knowledge of the governors and staff at the college, and the wider sector. As I said in a previous debate, it is possible—it is most likely—that the insolvent college will have undergone a period of intervention before becoming insolvent, so the education administrator will also be able to consult the Further Education Commissioner. I repeat—I want it to be clear—that we would expect, in an appropriate case, the Education Minister to liaise with the FE Commissioner.

It has also been said that it is inconceivable that the education administrator would take decisions on how to meet the special objective without first having conversations with the range of key stakeholders. Mention has been made of Mr Harris’s evidence to the Committee. He said:

“From an insolvency practitioner’s perspective, it is worth standing back and recognising that insolvency practitioners are not train drivers, or people who spend their life in the railway or the London Underground, when it comes to a special administration regime, nor are they specialist property developers. They come to each situation afresh. One comforting thing that insolvency practitioners bring is recognising when they need to keep in place the existing management structure in a corporate sense, or the workforce in a pastoral sense, recognising that those people have skills and qualifications that they as an office holder do not necessarily have, and also recognising that they can bring outside specialist help to continuing the duties of education administrator, should the need arise. That is all part and parcel of any trading insolvency regime, and I would imagine that any office holder stepping into the role of an education administrator would have that at the forefront of their mind. I do not think it presents a unique challenge; it is very similar to all the other special administration roles. There is an extra dynamic—there is a pastoral element.”––[Official Report, Technical and Further Education Public Bill Committee, 22 November 2016; c. 46, Q60.]

Of course, as Stephen Harris pointed out, when an institution is insolvent, there is a critical need for someone who understands and can deploy the tools necessary to ensure that the education administration is properly managed. Given what I have told the Committee, we expect that that is exactly how the education administrator will operate. Many insolvency practitioners come from big companies that have huge amounts of expertise in a range of fields, including education. The leadership team of the FE body would be in place to provide support on the day-to-day running of the college and information to assist the education administrator in his task of achieving the special objective. So would the Further Education Commissioner and Sixth Form College Commissioner and their teams, and officials in the Department for Education. That is how the interaction between the various bodies highlighted by the hon. Gentleman works.

Of course, the education administrator will be free to seek advice from any other source, but I think that introducing unnecessary requirements as to the appointment of an education administrator would limit the pool of insolvency practitioners from which we could draw, in the event that we needed to use the special administrative regime.

[Mr Jayawardena]

The Minister is making a very important point. Does he agree that the arguments the hon. Member for Blackpool South outlined earlier about the complexity of such insolvency regimes and the unwinding, possibly, of certain troubles that FE colleges might get into—on rare occasions, as the Minister said—is actually the reason why it is important that insolvency practitioners are the people appointed to deal with these situations, because they are aware of how to deal with these complexities?

--- Later in debate ---

[Gordon Marsden]

The amendments are again intended to probe the primary concern of the education administrator. They are relatively terse because they remove particular references and lines. Before I comment on them, I will make the point about why we are concerned and then talk about the broader issues.

Amendment 3 expresses our belief that it is important to say that the education administration objective is the primary purpose. The Minister has given strong indications, notwithstanding the nature of the education administrator’s position and background, but we think it is important to say that the primary concern should be the special education administration objective, minimising disruption to learners.

With regard to amendment 4, I have sat on a number of Delegated Legislation Committees and, to be honest, I do not think I have ever seen such a meandering and imprecise phrase in brackets as “if possible”. That could cover a multitude of sins. That is not the sort of draftsmanship that one normally expects to see in a Bill of this nature, and that, too, makes us concerned to ensure that the education administration objective is the primary concern.

This is not just an issue that concerns us. The Association of School and College Leaders raised a number of questions about the education administrator in its written evidence to the Committee. It states:

“The proposed mechanism itself gives rise to numerous concerns and uncertainties.”

It refers to the powers that have been transferred to the education administrator, such as whether he or she can

“dissolve a corporation established by Act of Parliament”.

We may touch on some of those points later. It goes on to raise the issue we discussed earlier with amendment 34 about the licensed insolvency practitioner. It also asks

“what lines of responsibility there would be during that period over matters such as safeguarding. If that were found to be inadequate, who would then have oversight…?”

Would that be the education administrator? If so, what would the implications be for the college in question?

The Government’s own consultation response document raised issues surrounding the need for further protection of learners. The House of Commons Library briefing reports:

“Of particular interest to respondents was the proposed introduction of the SAR, and the special objective that would require the education administrator to avoid or minimise disruption of the studies of the existing students, and ensure that it became unnecessary for the FE body to remain in education administration for that purpose. Although many respondents were supportive of the need and ‘ambition’ for the special objective, almost two-thirds questioned whether it sufficiently reflected the needs of learners and creditors.”

I assume that means the issue that the Minister and I have been discussing about where the balance is between those two separate processes. For example, the Association of Teachers and Lecturers stated in its response that the proposed SAR, in focusing on students as consumers, did not recognise

“the individual and societal benefits of further education”

or

“the instability and disruption to learners and their studies that they will inevitably experience as a result of their college going into administration.”

The Minister may disagree with those assessments, but they shine a light on the concerns among people who teach in colleges of this nature, so they are germane to the amendments that we have tabled.

Last week’s evidence session with the banks was particularly concerning in relation to the lack of information on finances and their ability to lend in future—hence some of the questions I asked.

[Mr Jayawardena]

I respect the point that the hon. Gentleman is making, but he mentioned, in reference to subsection (2), a lack of clarity. Is it not true that the objective of education administration is set out very clearly in clause 14? It sets out that learners come first, ensuring that it becomes unnecessary wherever possible for the body to remain in education administration. However, on even rarer occasions it might be necessary for people to act in a different way in order to put learners first. That is what the Bill is trying to achieve.

[Gordon Marsden]

I know that is what the Bill is trying to achieve; the question that we are here to decide is whether the Bill, as drafted, actually achieves that. I do not want to trade clauses with the hon. Gentleman, so I will only say, as I have observed previously, that clauses 14 and 22, although they deal with different aspects of the functions of the education administrator, are somewhat ambiguous in that respect. I will not take up the Committee’s time, but I refer the hon. Gentleman to the explanatory notes to both clauses. He will see that there is some tension there, which is why we are probing in the way that we are.

We must take into account the pressures that the administrator will face. It was particularly interesting to hear what Richard Meddelton from Lloyds said. As we know, Lloyds is an extremely important player in the college funding world. He said:

“As a lender, the ranking—again, it is unclear at the moment—may well sit behind a creditor. In addition, as we interpret it, even as a secured creditor the security could be transferred into a separate entity.”––[Official Report, Technical and Further Education Public Bill Committee, 22 November 2016; c. 41-42, Q48.]

Richard Robinson said:

“The issue is that it does not specify where that ranking lies. That, for us, is very important. Although it could rank at the back, it could also rank ahead of us.”––[Official Report, Technical and Further Education Public Bill Committee, 22 November 2016; c. 48, Q65.]

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Jayawardena]

rose—

[Gordon Marsden]

If the hon. Gentleman will allow me to finish the quotation, I will happily let him intervene.

Richard Meddelton went on to say that

“under the current system if we have security, we have priority. The reality is that we have viewed it as quasi-Government because in the past—obviously the past is no prediction of the future—that money has been forthcoming”.––[Official Report, Technical and Further Education Public Bill Committee, 22 November 2016; c. 42, Q49.]

The banks have concerns about how the insolvency framework will work for them in financial terms. That will inevitably affect what the education administrator can do to fulfil the broader function that the Minister made.

[Mr Jayawardena]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for reminding us of the evidence we heard. Again, as we are discussing Lloyds, I refer Members to my entry in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests. Did Lloyds not also say, though, that at the moment they are not necessarily able to say that they would protect learners first, so in that respect this is a good thing for learners? However, the other banks, particularly Santander, said that the certainty would allow them to lend more. One bank does not necessarily speak for all.

[Gordon Marsden]

I accept that. I would only observe that Lloyds, as we know, is a particularly large and extremely important lender to colleges.

To sum up, although I will refer to these issues in relation to future amendments, we want to hear more detail on them from the Minister. On that point, I will conclude my remarks.

Ordered, That the debate be now adjourned.—(David Evennett.)