Leasehold and Freehold Reform Bill (Sixth sitting)

Baroness Maclean of Redditch Excerpts

Committee stage
Tuesday 23rd January 2024 Public Bill Committees

[Matthew Pennycook (Greenwich and Woolwich) (Lab)]

The Minister made a commendable effort to explain the various Government amendments and schedules in this part of the Bill. Briefly, for purposes of clarity, let me say that we have a lot to say about valuation, but we will do so when we debate schedule 2.

[Rachel Maclean (Redditch) (Con)]

I add my words of appreciation to those of the shadow Front-Bench spokesman for the Minister’s explanation. I want to add one brief point of clarity on marriage value, which was alluded to by my hon. Friend the Member for North East Bedfordshire. It is fair to say that marriage value is seen as one of the outdated, feudal and predatory practices of freeholders. It prevents people who have bought a house or flat in good faith from enjoying their property as we would expect them to do in a free country such as the UK.

I will not detain the Committee, but I recommend that anybody watching these proceedings or interested in the subject reads an absolutely fantastic article on leaseholdknowledge.com. That is a leaseholders’ charity that has done a superb and detailed work on this topic. An article by a gentleman called Linz Darlington explains that marriage value is particularly unfair, because people pay not only their own fees, but the freeholder’s fees, and there is a concept of hypothetical profit. The whole thing is just a massive racket—I am not qualified to explain it any better than that, so I leave my comments there. Many people have told me that marriage value should go. It is part of an outdated system. Read the article on the website. I commend the Government for bringing forward this very important part of the overall package of reforms.

[Richard Fuller]

It is a good to see you in the Chair, Dame Caroline. We are blessed on this Committee to have three people who have been Housing Ministers, the great experience and expertise of the hon. Member for Brent North, and the good graces of the shadow Minister, the hon. Member for Greenwich and Woolwich. I was recently speaking about the Bill to my right hon. Friend the Member for Ashford (Damian Green), who pointed out that there were discussions about some of the measures in the Bill when he was the adviser to Sir John Major in No. 10 in the 1990s.

I have none of the expertise or experience of any of the people I have just mentioned, so it is with humility that I rise to make some observations. My first observation, which is not specific to the Bill, is that whenever there is a clear consensus between Government and Opposition, problems usually arise subsequently. We have just spoken about 29 pages of schedules and two pages of clauses —31 pages of a 130-page Bill—and I heard one or two sentences from the shadow Minister. [Interruption.] Oh, the shadow Minister is coming back in later; good. I am encouraged. I was called to speak straight after my hon. Friend the Member for Redditch, rather than us bouncing between Government and Opposition Members, so I was worried. My first concern was that we were going through a very large proportion of the Bill very quickly. Grouping so much of the Bill together is a choice. It is perfectly within the ambit of the Opposition to say, in the Programming Sub-Committee, “We will do clause 9 stand part, then clauses 10 and clause 11, and then schedule 2 separately,” but in the planning done by the Government and Opposition Whips, we decided to put all the provisions together, so that we brush past them very quickly, hoping that no one will notice. I notice a twinkle in the eye of the hon. Member for Brent North.

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[Rachel Maclean]

Does my hon. Friend not agree that the concept of ground rent itself is “gouging”, to use his word, because it is a payment for nothing? Clearly, the freeholders are receiving payment through service charges and the price of buying and selling a lease. The ground rent is a payment for nothing. Whether it is, in his words, a reasonable one and not gouging but is kept low and so on, still, in my mind and certainly that of many leaseholders, the Competition and Markets Authority, the Government and the analysis, it is a payment for nothing and so, fundamentally, it is wrong and unfair. I wonder what my hon. Friend thinks about that.

[Richard Fuller]

The former Minister makes an excellent point. She knows much more about this than I do and therefore I am very wary about falling into the trap of answering her question directly. What I will say is that, for the purposes of my speech today, what I think is not important. What is important is this: what will the courts find, and how have we ensured that the Bill is robust in those circumstances? I will say, without answering my hon. Friend’s question, that people sometimes sign contracts for things that they do not use or that have no value, but there is an argument that they signed a contract and it had these line items in it. People may sign a contract that gives them access to a swimming pool or gym and they may not use it. I do not mean to be pejorative, because these are very important issues. I am just saying that the principle is that, whether ground rent is real or not, it is still subject to the fact that it was part of a contract that was signed, and that will have weight in any legal challenge to the Bill.

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[Rachel Maclean]

I am listening with interest to the shadow Minister’s comments. He is making a valid point and advancing a logical argument for the setting of these rates, which we all agree is vital. If it were not to be the case that the Secretary of State had the powers in this legislation to set these rates, what does he think is the best alternative? How would those rates be set?

[Matthew Pennycook]

I thank the hon. Lady for her intervention. To be very clear, we agree with the Government’s proposal that the Secretary of State set the rate. The alternative would be, as Mr Fanshawe put to us in the evidence sessions, that we rely as a starting point on the Sportelli judgment, with its 4.75% and 5% rates respectively, and that leaseholders are free in the process of dispute to argue for more favourable rates on the grounds of particular circumstances being implied. On balance, we think that it is right that the Secretary of State sets the rate. What I am trying to drive at, which I will get to, is that how the Secretary of State sets the rate and what it should be are crucial to the outcomes for leaseholders in terms of the premium payable.

When it comes to the regulations required to bring the new valuation process into force, we obviously recognise that they are the means by which the detailed methodology for setting the applicable deferment rate will be brought forward. However, while it would not be right to pre-empt those regulations in Committee, we believe that the objective underpinning the setting of the deferment rate should be set out in the Bill. While the rate or rates will need to be set at a level that does not unfairly denude freeholders of value, we think it is important that the Bill states clearly that in determining what should be the rate or rates, the Secretary of State must have at the forefront of their mind the need to reduce premiums for leaseholders. Amendments 2 and 3 would ensure that that is the case in relation to both freehold acquisition and lease extensions. While other considerations will clearly need to be taken into account, not least how to ensure that landlords receive adequate compensation to reflect their legitimate property interests, these amendments would oblige Ministers to set a rate or rates with the overriding objective of encouraging leaseholders to acquire their freehold at the lowest possible cost.

That is important because with marriage and hope value abolished and the treatment of ground rents in the valuation calculation capped at peppercorn rates, it is the deferment rate that will be the primary driver of price to be paid by leaseholders in enfranchisement or extension claims. It is essential that reducing premiums for leaseholders is the determining factor in the process by which such a rate or rates will be set and reviewed, and it must therefore be put on the face of the Bill. On that basis, I hope the Minister will consider accepting both amendments. I look forward to his response.

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[Matthew Pennycook]

I will have to come back to my hon. Friend on that point, but my understanding is that, by deleting the relevant proposed new sections, amendments 4 and 5 would ensure that in all circumstances non-litigation costs will not be chargeable to leaseholders. That was certainly the Opposition’s intent in proposing the amendments.

[Rachel Maclean]

I ask the Minister to clarify a couple of points. It is extremely unusual for me ever to find anything in his comments to disagree with or depart from. If I heard him correctly, however, I think he stated that he thought it was unlikely that landlords would ever seek to circumvent the intent of the Bill. Possibly I took that out of context, but I suggest strongly that, on the contrary, it is extremely likely that landlords will intend or try to circumvent the intent of the Bill, because that is what we have seen from freeholders over decades. That is why we are in the position that we are in.

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[Matthew Pennycook]

For the purposes of anyone following our proceedings, there are several issues that we wish to raise in relation to clause 21 and schedule 7, but we will do so when we come specifically to debate schedule 7, which, as the Minister said, is where the right is detailed.

[Rachel Maclean]

If it is the case that I can speak to schedule 7 at a later time, I will defer my comments till then.

[Lee Rowley]

I look forward to hearing colleagues’ comments in due course.

Amendment 44 agreed to.

Clause 21, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Ordered, That further consideration be now adjourned. —(Mr Mohindra.)