Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Eighth sitting)

Debate between Preet Kaur Gill and Andrea Leadsom

Committee stage
Tuesday 14th May 2024 Public Bill Committees

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health and Social Care (Dame Andrea Leadsom)]

The clause provides quite simply that, if any measures in this Bill did not apply to the parliamentary estate, they would do so by virtue of the explicit mention in this clause. It simply removes loopholes, and I commend it to the Committee.

[Preet Kaur Gill (Birmingham, Edgbaston) (Lab/Co-op)]

I would never want us to be accused of the damning political adage that it is one rule for them and one rule for everyone else, so of course I support the parliamentary estate being subject to the same regulations.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 75 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 76

Regulations: general

Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.

[The Chair]

With this it will be convenient to discuss clause 77 stand part.

[Dame Andrea Leadsom]

Clause 76 provides that any regulations made under the Bill may make

“consequential, supplementary, incidental, transitional or saving provision”.

That is a very good set of words. This enables any regulations to introduce provisions for different purposes, as well as to make different provisions for different parts of the UK.

Clause 77 provides the procedures for making regulations under the Bill. Regulations made by the Secretary of State or Welsh Minister are to be made by statutory instrument. Regulations made by Scottish Ministers are to be made by Scottish statutory instruments.

[Preet Kaur Gill]

As the Minister says, clause 76 provides that, where regulations are made under the Bill, the regulations may make

“consequential, supplementary, incidental, transitional or saving provision”,

and it allows regulations to introduce different provision for different purposes, as well as different provision for different parts of the United Kingdom. The explanatory notes to the Bill cite the helpful example that

“under powers in Part 5 (Notification requirements etc for vaping and nicotine products), different provision may need to be made for Great Britain and Northern Ireland”,

since Northern Ireland uses its own portal for publications. I expect our colleagues in the other place will have their own comments to make about the various consequential and incidental provisions in the Bill, but, as far as I am concerned, I am happy to see the inclusion of the clause.

Similarly, on clause 77, I have no substantial comments to make apart from noting how important it has been to ensure that the important new regulations that we are introducing through this Bill are implemented equally and at the same time across all four nations of the United Kingdom. I echo the Minister’s thanks to Ministers in the devolved nations for the constructive way in which they seem to have engaged with and supported the Bill.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 76 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 77 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 78

Extent

Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.

[Dame Andrea Leadsom]

This clause simply outlines the extent of the Bill: part 1 applies to England and Wales, part 2 to Scotland, part 3 to Northern Ireland and parts 4, 5 and 6 to the whole of the UK. It is a standard clause that helps the measures in the Bill to function effectively, and I commend the clause to the Committee.

[Preet Kaur Gill]

As the Minister has set out, clause 78 outlines the territorial extent of the Bill. We have discussed many of these discrepancies with earlier clauses, particularly on the sale and supply of tobacco, vapes and nicotine products. I have no further comments to add.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 78 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 79

Commencement

--- Later in debate ---

[Preet Kaur Gill]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for setting out the case for his amendment. We have already debated clause 79 to some extent, and I raised my concerns that we were not introducing regulations to close the loophole on the free distribution of vapes to under-18s sooner.

On new clause 6 and amendment 24 I recognise the point that the hon. Gentleman is making, which is that a mandatory age verification policy has been in force in Scotland for anyone looking under 25 since 2017. My understanding is that that is working well and, indeed, we also have Challenge 25 here in England and in Wales, although not on a legislative footing. The policy of providing a buffer can only help to ensure that those who are under-age, but who look over-age, are caught and are asked for ID—provided everyone knows where they stand and the Challenge 25 policy is well advertised.

As we have already discussed, the view taken in the design of these regulations is to put the responsibility for age of sale restrictions with the retailer, rather than the customer. The question the hon. Gentleman is raising is whether to make carrying ID effectively mandatory for customers buying cigarettes or vapes. I have a few concerns about that that I would like to raise. First, quite rightly, in order to be consistent with the rest of the regulations, his amendments put the responsibility for such a policy on the retailers. However, the effect of the policy would be to require customers to carry ID in order to buy these products if they were under a certain age. There does seem to be a bit of a disjunct, as that risks legislating twice for the responsibility to make sure that retailers do not sell to people who are under-age. Does this not suggest that the penalties for breaching the age of sale legislation need to be stronger in order to incentivise retailers to put robust policies in place?

I am slightly concerned that the policy will also remove flexibility when it comes to, for example, shop workers in local corner shops, who know their customers. Would they not end up having to ask people for ID every time, even when they already know they are over-age? Secondly, I just want to ask how the hon. Member envisages this working in the longer term, given that the age of sale for tobacco will rise every year? How will the Challenge 25 buffer be set accordingly? As it stands in his proposals, it would run out in 2033.

My other question is for the Minister. Presumably there has been a conscious decision to not align with the Scottish law on this subject. Can she explain why that decision was taken, on balance, when consistency in the law across Great Britain would surely be beneficial? Moreover, can I ask whether she has discussed this with Ministers in Wales? Once again, I thank the hon. Member for Harrow East for tabling the amendment and I will be interested in the responses to the questions that I have raised.

[Dame Andrea Leadsom]

I have a lot of sympathy with the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Harrow East, and with his amendment and new clause 6. The hon. Member for Birmingham, Edgbaston mentioned some of the reasons why they are potentially slightly confusing and also, perhaps, unnecessary. I understand the point about the neatness of aligning to Scotland. The hon. Lady asked whether we have discussed this with Ministers in devolved Administrations and, of course, the answer is yes.

The decision we took is that the proposal that we have is adequate. New clause 6 would introduce a requirement for businesses selling tobacco products, herbal smoking products and vaping products in England and Wales to operate an age verification policy. The policy would establish a customer’s age if they look under the age specified by the new clause. The new clause seeks to replicate the existing requirements in Scotland, and the related amendment 24 would mean the requirement to operate an age verification policy would come into force six months after Royal Assent.

For purchases of tobacco and herbal smoking products from 1 January 2034, when anyone born on or after the 1 January 2009 turns 25, the age verification policy would need to be updated to reflect the new age of sale for tobacco or herbal smoking-related products. That means that a person selling such products from 2034 onwards would be required to take steps to establish a customer’s age if they looked like they were born on or after 1 January 2009. The age verification requirement for vaping products would remain the same—that is, to take steps to establish a customer’s age if they look under 25.

Although I welcome my hon. Friend’s intention to ensure that retailers do not sell to anyone under-age, there is a fine balance to strike. We do not want to place undue burden on those retailers who understand their business and customers by introducing new mandatory age verification policies. It is already an offence to sell tobacco and vaping products to anyone under-age, and that is enforced by trading standards, who will continue to take an intelligence-led, proportionate approach to enforcing the law through age of sale test purchases. Retailers should continue to take reasonable steps and exercise due diligence to ensure they do not break the law. Most retailers already follow recommended practice and regularly ask for identification from customers, but, as the hon. Member for Birmingham, Edgbaston said, they do not have to do so every single time if they know who the person is and they always buy products at that shop.

Under the new clause, failure to operate an age verification policy could result in a fine of up to £500 for a business on conviction. The Government feel that that is disproportionate and not what we are trying to achieve through the Bill with the introduction of fixed-penalty notices. The on-the-spot fines will complement existing sanctions, allowing trading standards to take swifter action to fine retailers that sell tobacco or vape products to someone under-age.

--- Later in debate ---

[Dame Andrea Leadsom]

The clause provides a power to make transitional or saving provisions. Transitional provisions address how existing legislation will be phased out or replaced by new legislation, and saving provisions preserve certain rights, obligations or legal consequences from existing statute. Welsh Ministers can make transitional or saving provision relating to the coming into force of clause 27 and schedule 1, which relate to the handing over of tobacco to under-age people in Wales. Scottish Ministers can make transitional or saving provision in relation to part 2. The Department of Health in Northern Ireland can make transitional or saving provision in relation to part 3, and the Secretary of State can make transitional or saving provision in relation to any measures or part that has not been mentioned. This is a standard provision, and I commend the clause to the Committee.

[Preet Kaur Gill]

I thank the Minister for that explanation. I have no further comments to add.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 80 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 81

Citation

Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.

[Dame Andrea Leadsom]

This clause provides that the Bill may, in due course, be cited as the Tobacco and Vapes Act 2024. This is a standard clause, and I thoroughly commend it to the Committee.

[Preet Kaur Gill]

I have nothing further to add.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 81 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

New Clause 2

Tobacco products statutory scheme: consultation

“(1) The Secretary of State must consult and report on the desirability of making a scheme with one or more of the following purposes—

(a) regulating, for the purposes of improving public health, the prices which may be charged by any manufacturer or importer of tobacco products for the supply of any tobacco products;

(b) limiting the profits which may accrue to any manufacturer or importer in connection with the manufacture or supply of tobacco products;

(c) providing for any manufacturer or importer of tobacco products to pay to the Secretary of State an amount calculated by reference to sales or estimated sales of those products (whether on the basis of net prices, average selling prices or otherwise) to be used for the purposes of reducing smoking prevalence and improving public health.”—(Bob Blackman.)

This new clause would require the Secretary of State for Health and Social Care to consult on proposals for regulating the prices and profits of, and to raise funds from, tobacco manufacturers and importers.

Brought up, and read the First time.

--- Later in debate ---

[Preet Kaur Gill]

The new clause relates to the testing of nicotine products and seeks to allow notification fees to be used for more than just the administration of that scheme but a wider, more comprehensive regulatory process, which we have supported. We have discussed clauses 71 to 74 on modifying the notification scheme to include non-nicotine vapes and extend to other nicotine products. Will those clauses allow for the notification fees regulations, which set fees at £150, to be amended accordingly?

I commend the hon. Member for Harrow East, as ever, for his work. I must remark that I rather regret that we have scheduled a debate on funding a notification scheme to test products before agreeing on the merits of such a reformed scheme itself. I look forward to coming to that in detail with two of my new clauses shortly, but I note that I do not necessarily agree with the Member that it should be a Medicines and Healthcare products Regulatory Agency competence to conduct enforcement. My issue with this process has been how products are getting on to the market in the first place. I would not want to disrupt or diffuse responsibilities for cracking down on the very real issue of the widespread market in illicit vapes. I think that that should still primarily be a matter for trading standards on the ground. None the less, I commend the Member for tabling the new clause, and I hope that he will support our proposals on testing.

[Dame Andrea Leadsom]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for Harrow East for bringing this discussion before the Committee. He has given the Bill a great deal of thought, and I am so grateful to him for that. His new clause seeks to change the level of fees for novel tobacco, vaping and other nicotine products, so that they can be used to pay for enforcement and testing costs as well. I support the ambition of the new clause but, as he will know, we already have the ability to test products and to take decisive enforcement action where and when illegality occurs. The notification system, as he will know, is not an enforcement tool and cannot currently be used as such. It is the responsibility of trading standards to ensure compliance of vaping products and to remove non-compliant—that is, illicit—vapes from the market.

To help to tackle illicit vapes, we announced new funding last year to set up an illicit vaping enforcement unit to gather intelligence and conduct market surveillance. This programme of work, led by National Trading Standards, is helping to stamp out criminal activity and disrupt illicit supply, and we have been testing products as part of it. As colleagues are aware, we also recently announced £30 million of new funding per year for enforcement agencies. This will crack down on illicit tobacco and under-age tobacco and vape sales to support the regulations put forward in the Bill. For those reasons, I hope that my hon. Friend will not push the new clause to a vote.

--- Later in debate ---

[Preet Kaur Gill]

I do not have much to add, but note that when the Bill was introduced some in the tobacco industry lobbied MPs to include a licensing scheme for vapes only. It would be an egregious situation if we were to take a stronger stance on vapes than on tobacco, which is the real killer. I suspect they hoped for the inclusion of something like that primarily because it would slow the Bill down. I thank the hon. Member for Harrow East for tabling a more balanced new clause, which would introduce licensing schemes for tobacco products as well as for nicotine products and vapes.

I have some questions for the Minister. Will she set out why the Government have not opted to set up a licensing scheme for tobacco and vapes? We have a licensing scheme for alcohol in England and Wales, but the Government have never sought to extend it to tobacco, although it would help us to identify shops that sell the products and streamline our enforcement efforts. I appreciate that many of sanctions related to licensing that are often cited, such as the power to take a licence away, are perhaps a less strong argument in relation to this Bill, because we have restricted premises and restricted sales orders, but I am interested in the Minister’s views.

On illicit products, the Government have introduced a track and trace system for tobacco, which is a useful component in monitoring the flow and patterns in the trade in tobacco products around the country. Given the improved provisions for product IDs, which will come into effect for products entering the country when the new vaping excise duty is introduced, we remarked in Committee that this could be an opportunity to look at setting up something similar for nicotine and vaping products.

I fully appreciate the concern of the hon. Member for Harrow East that enforcement will be crucial to the Bill’s success, but my view is that our priority must be to make a success of the enforcement regime that the Bill introduces before considering the case for further regulation. There probably will be a case for further regulation in future.

[Dame Andrea Leadsom]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for Harrow East, and to the hon. Member for York Central, who proposed a similar licensing scheme; other amendments that have not been debated also proposed the creation of a licensing scheme.

I was frank this morning, and I will be again: the proposal sounds like a licence for those with licences to squeeze out those who cannot get licences and therefore to build more market share for themselves, enabling them to funnel their energy into getting more children addicted to nicotine. That is my personal view. We can debate whether that is the likely result, but it seems extraordinary that the vaping industry should be so in favour of licensing when, on the face of it, it is so clearly against its interests. I find its backing of it quite cynical.

From a practical point of view, His Majesty’s Revenue and Customs already operates a track and trace system for tobacco products, which tracks their movement from supply through to sale. Every business involved in the supply of cigarettes and hand-rolling tobacco must be registered on the tobacco track and trace system, and HMRC can penalise businesses for non-compliance, including by removing their ability to legally buy or sell tobacco products, in the most serious of cases.

As Members will recall, in oral evidence the Chartered Trading Standards Institute told the Committee that HMRC’s track and trace scheme gives many of the same benefits as it would want from a licensing scheme. The Government also plan to introduce a new excise duty on vaping products. HMRC is currently consulting on the new vaping duty, and that consultation has a question about whether to introduce a track and trace system for vaping products to regulate the supply chain. That consultation will close on 29 May, and I feel it would be inappropriate to bring forward a licensing scheme for vapes when the ability to track these products from supply to sale is currently under consideration.

--- Later in debate ---

[Preet Kaur Gill]

I rise to speak to new clauses 11 and 13 on the testing of nicotine-containing vape products. Earlier we debated clause 73, which will allow Ministers to create new exceptions to publication as part of the notification scheme. We of course welcome those new powers, which represent a concession on the Minister’s part. However, the current notification process, which is what products must go through to get on to the UK market, is not as robust as it should be for nicotine-containing vapes.

As we have said, youth vaping is a serious growing issue. In 2021, Labour voted for an amendment to the Health and Care Bill to crack down on the marketing of vapes to children. Since then, according to the most recent survey by ASH, the number of children aged 11 to 17 who are vaping regularly has more than trebled to more than 140,000 British children. Meanwhile, one in five children have now tried vaping.

This issue is not only a concern in itself, but there is the issue of whether all these products are safe and whether they are what they say they are. I have raised serious concerns, for example, about the fact that children are puffing on 0% vapes that actually do contain nicotine, which gets them accidentally addicted. This is something that we discussed at the evidence session and that goes to a fundamental question about the MHRA’s role in the regulation of vapes. Is the MHRA really only the administrator of the notification scheme, or should it have a clearer responsibility to regulate and to take responsibility for the safety of vaping products?

Clause 73 indicates that the Minister agrees that it should. This is something one would expect the MHRA to take an interest in. Vapes are a product with clear consequences for the health of the population. There are risks, and some of the long-term health consequences of sustained vape use are not properly understood, but the Government’s policy is effectively to recommend this product as a stop-smoking aid. The Government, therefore, have a responsibility to be able to say with confidence that the products they legally allow on to the market are what they say they are and are safer than smoking.

We heard evidence from Dr Squire, the chief healthcare quality and access officer at the MHRA. It was an interesting discussion but, when it came to the notification process, what I took away was the fact that she could not say, “This is an absolutely robust system that keeps everybody safe,” and, “That is why the Bill is important.” I supported clause 73 to provide exceptions to publication, which would allow policies to be set where the MHRA would refuse to publish the notification for products that would make them available for legal sale. My concern, however, is about what is missing from the legislation to give the MHRA the information it needs to say confidently whether a product is actually safe.

I want to be clear in case the Minister raises it: new clause 11 is not about undermining the enforcement role of trading standards teams. After a product gets to the market, trading standards proactively ensure that potentially dangerous products are not stocked on shelves, and we have the yellow card scheme for customers to report an adverse reaction to a vaping product. Who is monitoring the long-term risks of these products? I doubt they would be caught by either trading standards or the yellow card scheme, but that is another question.

In relation to new clause 11, however, what I am talking about is the screening of products before they get to the UK market to enable the MHRA to have the information it needs to refuse a notification publication, even if the company has, on paper, met the requirements. I appreciate that the exceptions in clause 73 are not yet defined, but the MRHA does not have the powers to gather the information it needs in the first place in order to make those exceptions. As Dr Squire admitted herself, there are cases right now of products getting on to the market that do not match the product registered through the notification scheme. Those products could have tank sizes that are too large; they could include dangerous chemicals or include dangerously high nicotine strengths.

Our fundamental concern is that these products are now extremely popular with children. That is why I contend that the MHRA should have additional powers to test a proportion of products to ensure that they comply with their notifications. I think any outside observer would contend that that is common sense. The Secretary of State has testing powers for tobacco products, so why not for vapes? Will the Minister therefore support my new clauses, which seek to address that through this Bill? This is not just about the market as we know it today; this is about safeguarding the future of vapes to ensure that consumers can have confidence in those products and that we, as legislators, can have confidence in the products that we are recommending as stop-smoking aids. That is why I commend new clause 11 to the Committee.

Finally, new clause 13 would require the Secretary of State to report on some of the new powers on testing that I have just described, as well as on another power that the MHRA does not have at present, which is to remove notifications from publication. Currently, this power rests with the Secretary of State in the Tobacco and Related Products Regulations 2016 to recall a product if it is deemed to pose a serious risk to human health. This is a high bar. It is my concern that in practice the emergence of such risk can be a slow process.

I have told the Minister before how the limitations of this power were made clear the other year when Elf Bar, which is perhaps the market leader in this space, was found to be selling vapes with tank sizes that were larger than allowed. The responsibility to remove those products from the market actually lies with the producer—quite rightly—but this issue is about the recourse that the Government have when a threat is urgent and a company does not comply.

New clause 13 would also examine the case for a duty to be applied to trading standards that would be similar to the duty on councils in Northern Ireland to share intelligence on non-compliant and illicit products, so that we can better join up the enforcement response at the national level. Once again, I urge Members to support these new clauses and I commend them to the Committee.

[Dame Andrea Leadsom]

I am grateful to the hon. Lady for bringing these issues before the Committee. These new clauses seek to give more powers to the MHRA to introduce a testing regime for vaping and nicotine products, and to ensure that the laboratories conducting the testing are independent of the tobacco industry. They also aim to give the MHRA powers to remove notifications and thus prohibit the sale of products if they are found to be non-compliant.

New clause 13 would require the Secretary of State to produce and lay before Parliament a report to consider whether the MHRA should be given new powers to request and test samples, and to remove vaping and nicotine products from the list of notified products. The report would also have to examine the case for a requirement for local trading standards authorities to notify the MHRA of any instances where vaping or nicotine products are being sold that have not been notified or are non-compliant.

I am very sympathetic to the aims of these new clauses, but the current notification system is not an enforcement tool and should not be viewed as such. It is the responsibility of trading standards to ensure compliance of vaping products and to remove non-compliant—that is, illicit —vapes from the market and stop their sale. It is also the responsibility of trading standards to test a product if they believe that it contains illegal substances or too much nicotine. The MHRA supports this work by providing intelligence from the notification system.

New clause 11 would facilitate the previous new clause by giving powers to the Secretary of State to approve, as part of the testing regime, certain laboratories that are not in any way funded or controlled either by the vaping industry or the tobacco industry.

The Secretary of State can already commission independent laboratories to undertake the testing of vapes, in order to check and confirm that they meet our regulatory standards as set out in the Tobacco and Related Products Regulations 2016. We can also produce relevant guidance to support this work, so the new clause really is not needed. Trading standards, supported by the MHRA, work with local scientific services that are independent of the tobacco and vaping industry in order to test vapes and to take action where non-compliance is found. These testing facilities support our enforcement programmes.

In fact, last year the Prime Minister visited an independent lab in Kent that checks for specific ingredients and harmful substances. The Prime Minister, who was accompanied by the chief medical officer, Sir Chris Whitty, described the laboratory as “a centre of excellence” and said that it was at the frontline of testing, providing vital information in the campaign to tackle illegal vaping.

In summary, although I completely understand and support the aims of each of these new clauses to ensure that products are rigorously tested, adhere to our regulations and do not pose additional risk or harm, we can already test products, and indeed do, using quality-assured laboratories for this work. In addition, there are tough penalties in place for those who break our rules, including unlimited fines and prison sentences. As hon. Members know, we have also provided new funding and support to help local trading standards to enhance their enforcement capacity and to test products. For those reasons, I ask the hon. Lady not to press her new clauses to a vote.

--- Later in debate ---

[Preet Kaur Gill]

Most public places are already smoke free on a voluntary basis. We do not believe it is necessary or proportionate to make such a legal requirement, which would risk increasing the widespread misperception that vaping is as harmful as smoking. In the United Kingdom, vaping is already prohibited on a voluntary basis in most, if not all, places visited by children; public transport—trains, airports, planes, buses, coaches and ferries—most, if not all, sports stadiums; music venues; many hospitals or hospital grounds; restaurants and cafes, at least definitely those used widely by children; and a lot of pubs and bars. As was discussed in last week’s evidence sessions, the health harms underpinning the smoking ban are not proven for vaping, and such an approach would be hard to justify on health grounds. This would be a complicated piece of legislation to introduce, and now is not the time at which, and the Bill is not the place in which, to do so.

[Dame Andrea Leadsom]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for Copeland for moving the new clause tabled by our hon. Friend the Member for Sleaford and North Hykeham. I think all hon. Members are keen to see much more evidence on this issue, and I absolutely share that concern. I have urgently commissioned research into the impact of vaping on both the vaper and those second-hand breathers-in. As we all heard during the public evidence sessions, and as my hon. Friend the Member for East Kilbride, Strathaven and Lesmahagow set out, we do not have the evidence. We therefore need to provide evidence-based regulation as a matter of urgency, and I absolutely assure hon. Members that that will be forthcoming.

It is certainly the case that the ban on smoking in indoor spaces has been a great public health success story since its introduction in England in 2007 and across the UK from 2006. There is no doubt that the ban has protected many adults and so many children from the harms of passive smoking; it will have saved lives.

We know that vaping is less harmful than smoking, and indeed is a very effective quit aid for adult smokers. Although I have grave concerns about whether we err too far on the side of saying “Vaping is much better than smoking,” and are therefore inadvertently saying to young people that it is fine to vape, which of course it is not, that is why we also always say, “If you don’t smoke, don’t vape, and children should never vape.”

Although smoking in a public place may be seen as a nuisance by some, and there is some evidence that it can trigger asthma attacks, in the same way that pollution or car exhaust fumes can, there is very limited evidence of the potential harms of vaping in enclosed spaces, and simply none to suggest that it is at all similar to tobacco smoking. Vapes emit vapour, not harmful tobacco smoke. Vaping does not burn tobacco or produce tar and carbon monoxide—two of the most harmful elements in tobacco smoke. Evidence of the harm from exposure to second-hand tobacco smoke is well established, and because of its carcinogenic content, there is no safe level of exposure. It is totally incomparable to vaping, where there is very little evidence to suggest that second-hand vapour is anything more than an irritant. I repeat: that is not to say that vaping is good for anyone or a good thing to try. It absolutely is not. We know it is extremely harmful to children, whose lungs and brains are still developing.

In addition, many businesses, venues and spaces have already introduced their own bans on the use of vapes where smoking is prohibited, such as on public transport, on work premises and in many restaurants and bars. In 2016, Public Health England produced guidance regarding the use of vapes in public places and workplaces, which has helped businesses to make informed decisions on their vape-free policies, but given the lack of evidence of any harm from second-hand vapour and the way that the majority of businesses, restaurants and bars self-regulate and have vape-free policies in place, as well as the fact that vaping in enclosed spaces was not raised in our call for evidence as a major issue to address youth vaping, we just do not feel that the new clause is necessary at this time.

We will of course keep this under review and continue to monitor the evidence base. As I said, I have urgently commissioned proper research into the effects in the short, medium and long terms, and I hope to make further announcements on exactly what I am doing during the Bill’s passage.

--- Later in debate ---

[Dame Andrea Leadsom]

I rise to thank all Members, on both sides, for their time, their focus, and their really well thought through and considered contributions in this Committee. The scrutiny has been carried out in the best traditions of this place, aiming to achieve something that this Parliament can be proud of.

I also thank you, Sir Gary, for your excellent chairmanship—[Hon. Members: “Hear, hear!”]—and all the other Chairs who have taken us through this life-changing Bill, as well as the officials and civil servants who have supported us, and the Bill team, who did extremely well in putting this together. Finally, I thank the Clerks, who always brilliantly support everything that goes on in this place.

[Preet Kaur Gill]

I echo the Minister’s thanks. This Bill implements a flagship public health policy, and all of us are privileged to have taken part in the passage of this world-leading legislation. It is really important that we have heard so many powerful testimonies about the health impacts of smoking, but parents are also worried about the increase in youth vaping, so the fact that we are to ban the marketing and sale of vapes to children will be welcomed by many people across the country.

I put on record my thanks to you, Sir Gary, for brilliantly chairing our sittings, and to the Minister, who has been very gracious in her responses. I thank colleagues on both sides of the Committee; it has been brilliant to work with them all and to reach a degree of consensus, although I have no doubt there will be many more things to discuss on Report. I also thank the Clerks and everyone on the Bill team. It has been a privilege.

Question put and agreed to.

Bill, as amended, accordingly to be reported.

Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Seventh sitting)

Debate between Preet Kaur Gill and Andrea Leadsom

Committee stage
Tuesday 14th May 2024 Public Bill Committees

[Preet Kaur Gill (Birmingham, Edgbaston) (Lab/Co-op)]

Clauses 28 to 32 deal with transitional arrangements after the Bill is passed and before some of its new regulations come into effect to make consequential amendments to previous Acts of Parliament that will be replaced by the new measures in this Bill. I have looked through the schedules and consequential amendments, and I am satisfied that they tie in with the measures in the Bill that we have discussed.

However, I will raise a few concerns, as the schedules relate to the commencement of various clauses of the Bill. For example, the loophole in existing legislation on the free distribution of vapes to under-18s that we discussed should be closed urgently, yet the Government have specified that that should commence only within six months of the Bill’s being passed. Can the Minister explain why she is not taking swifter action? It has already been two and a half years since we proposed changes to the law on this and that the Government take that up. Who is the Minister worried about inconveniencing by introducing the regulations quickly, apart from those who would seek to addict children to vapes? I fail to see what legitimate business could risk being disrupted by going faster here, given that clause 9 specifies that it applies

“in the course of business”,

so it would not necessarily impact the use of vapes as nicotine replacement therapies.

There is also a general point to make about timing. If we soon have a general election, the short campaign will rob us of six weeks of the normal course of business and many of the provisions in the Bill, including the consequential amendments on previous Acts of Parliament, will take effect within two months of the Bill’s passing. No doubt the civil service will ably do its job for the most part in preparing relevant authorities and retailers for the commencement of some of the new powers, but what can the Minister do to reassure me that a plan is already in place for the programme of work that needs to happen so that the transition is as smooth as possible?

Clauses 30 and 31 make it clear that local trading standards may conduct programmes of enforcement and issue fixed penalty notices for the breach of existing tobacco age of sale legislation until the new progressive rise in the age of sale comes into effect in 2027. I see nothing to argue with here, and likewise I have no issue with the transitional provisions detailed in clause 32.

[Dame Andrea Leadsom]

Let me respond to the point about the delay in coming into force. We seek to provide the right balance between giving retailers sufficient time to implement the measures and bringing the Bill into force as quickly as possible.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 28 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Schedules 2 to 4 agreed to.

Clauses 29 to 32 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 33

Crown application

Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.

--- Later in debate ---

[Dame Andrea Leadsom]

This clause provides that part 1 of the Bill and any regulations made under powers in part 1 bind the Crown. The effect of this is that the new age of sale restrictions for tobacco and vaping products for England and Wales apply to all bodies and persons acting as servants of the Crown. That includes Government Departments, prisons run by His Majesty’s prison service and members of the armed forces. The Crown itself may not be prosecuted for an offence under this part, but that is not the case for persons in the service of the Crown, such as civil servants or prison employees. This is a standard and supplementary clause. I commend it to the Committee.

[Preet Kaur Gill]

I have no detailed comments to make on this clause and we are happy to give it our support.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 33 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 34

Interpretation of Part 1

Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.

[The Chair]

With this it will be convenient to debate clauses 35 and 36 stand part.

[Dame Andrea Leadsom]

Clauses 34 and 35 set out the definitions of tobacco, vaping and nicotine products for interpretation within the Bill. Clause 36 substitutes the definition of “tobacco product” in the Tobacco Advertising and Promotion Act 2002.

Clause 34 sets out definitions for the purpose of interpreting part 1 of the Bill. A tobacco product is defined as

“a product consisting wholly or partly of tobacco and intended to be smoked, sniffed, sucked, chewed or consumed in any other way.”

All tobacco products are harmful for health, so this revised definition will ensure that all future novel tobacco products are captured by the legislation.

Another significant definition is “vaping product”, which means either a vape—a device—or a vaping substance, which means

“a substance, other than tobacco, that is intended to be vaporised by a vape”.

A vaping product is one that contains nicotine as well as one that does not.

Clause 35 provides a definition of “nicotine product”, used throughout part 1 of the Bill. The definition used is to capture other consumer nicotine delivery devices and products, such as nicotine pouches, that are not currently regulated but whose use has increased among young people. This definition is important to ensure that we capture the right types of products that might be targeted at or used by children in the future through any secondary legislation that the Government introduce to protect children from future harm and addiction.

Clause 36 substitutes the definition of “tobacco product” in the Tobacco Advertising and Promotion Act 2002. This ensures that all future novel tobacco products are captured by the advertising and display bans under the Tobacco and Advertising Promotion Act. I commend clauses 34, 35 and 36 to the Committee.

[Preet Kaur Gill]

This is, of course, an extremely important part of the Bill, as it defines many of the terms used in it. We know how adept the industry has become at worming its way around the spirit of regulations that Parliament has debated and agreed in the past. The ban on menthol cigarettes is one example. The clause sets out a series of definitions of what is covered by various terms that we have been using, such as “herbal smoking products”, “retail packaging” and “cigarette papers”. It is very important.

We know, and I think we should expect, that the industry will innovate in response to this legislation, and not necessarily in helpful ways. We must ensure that the wording of the definitions we use is specific enough not to have unintended consequences, but broad enough that we do not allow industry to get around them.

I appreciate that this is all tricky, but I have a few quick comments. I mentioned when we debated clause 11 that there is no definition of “retailer” in the Bill, and my concern related to vending machines. Can the Minister please provide clarity on which powers granted under this Bill enable Government to regulate vending machines for vapes and other nicotine products, if that was deemed necessary? If she cannot answer now, can she please write to me on that?

I also want to raise the issue of accessories. I mentioned the ban on menthol cigarettes introduced in 2020, which was no doubt a cautionary tale for us in ensuring that we give careful thought to designing regulations on flavoured vapes. A study published in the journal Tobacco Control, and part-funded by Cancer Research UK, surveyed 66,000 adults in England, Wales and Scotland from October 2020—five months after the menthol ban was introduced—to March 2023. It found that the number of adult smokers who reported using menthol-flavoured cigarettes at the start of the study period stayed stable at 14%, compared with 16% two and half years earlier. That may simply indicate the size of the illicit market, but the survey also found that only 15% of those who smoked menthol-flavoured cigarettes reported buying from illicit sources, such as under the counter: a proportion similar to those who smoked non-flavoured cigarettes. That instead suggests that the tobacco industry has quite adept legal loopholes to circumvent the ban.

Researchers think that that indicated that people are using legal accessories, including menthol-flavoured drops, filter balls or cards, or that they are purchasing cigarettes perceived to contain menthol flavouring without it being labelled as such. We will come back to the issue of defining flavours and those specific loopholes in other clauses, but I want to ask here about accessories such as drops, flavour cards and so on. I have looked up those products online and they are blatantly marketed for use with cigarettes—we can buy 25 packs of “rizla menthol extreme infusion flavour cards” for £9 on Amazon.

What lessons have the Government learned from that? They were meant to publish a review of the legislation in 2021, but as far as I am aware, they did not. Have the Government looked at an expanded definition of tobacco products that would include accessories? If it is appropriate to look at something more narrow and targeted in its scope, would the Minister consider specifically looking at clause 59 on the flavour of tobacco products? Expanding the regulation-making powers to include tobacco-related products and accessories would enable regulations to be designed to capture menthol flavourings and all its derivatives and analogues, including add-on accessories to cigarettes to mask the taste of tobacco. I appreciate that the Minister has until now said that we should not let perfect be the enemy of good, but that is quite a crucial issue.

First, as I mentioned, the Government already promised to review that a few years ago, so I hope that they have a considered response to those questions either way. Secondly, the same principles apply to the flavours of vapes. With the disposable bans, consumers are effectively being encouraged to assemble their devices themselves to reduce waste. If we do not think carefully about the issue of accessories, I am concerned that we will see similar workarounds in that market too, which will undermine the efficacy of the legislation. If the Minister does not have the information to hand, could she please write to me on that?

Clause 35 provides a definition of “nicotine product” that, as we have heard, captures things that are not vapes or tobacco products, and could include things such as nicotine pouches. In the national conversation about vapes, we could easily see how more unscrupulous companies that have been marketing to children would look to pivot to other products if we do not capture them with this Bill and the regulations that it allows for.

I reiterate my earlier question to ensure that the Minister takes it away. Given the inclusion of that definition of “nicotine product” in the Bill, where does she see it necessary for the Government to introduce further regulation of those products—for example, whether they should be included in a notification process or something similar? We of course support those powers and I think the Committee agree on that, but I am keen to understand how advanced her and the Government’s thinking is on this.

Finally, clause 36 amends the Tobacco Advertising and Promotion Act 2002, which was brought in under the Labour Government. That seems eminently sensible and I support it. While we are on the subject, the Minister mentioned in the first line-by-line debate that she has recently written to the Advertising Standards Authority about its work and the trends it is seeing. I would be very interested in seeing its response and I would be grateful if the Minister could share that with me too.

--- Later in debate ---

[Kirsten Oswald]

As we have heard, part 2 of the Bill relates specifically to Scotland and clauses 39 and 40 repeal particular offences. Clause 39 repeals an offence unique to Scotland—the purchasing of tobacco products by under-18s. That was introduced in 2010 and has been criticised for some time because of the unnecessary criminalisation of young people with a nicotine addiction. The change has been requested by the Scottish Government. Clause 40 repeals the power of the police to confiscate tobacco products from people who they suspect are under 18. Again, the power is unique to Scotland and it is seen as difficult to use. I therefore welcome these clauses as they stand.

It is correct to say that Scotland has been a world leader on a range of tobacco control measures, and there has been a steady reduction in the proportion of people smoking, but we know that far too many lives are still damaged and far too many people are still killed by tobacco. Obviously, we are aware of the huge burden on the NHS and social care services, and we know about the significant health inequalities that underlie much of that. Clauses 39 and 40 are sensible because they allow operations on the ground in Scotland to move forward in a more unified and logical manner. We welcome the new age regime and the greater power for Scottish Ministers to tackle youth smoking and vaping.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 39 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clauses 40 to 45 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 46

Alignment of definitions

Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.

[Dame Andrea Leadsom]

This clause amends definitions in the Tobacco and Primary Medical Services (Scotland) Act 2010 for tobacco products and nicotine vapour products to align them with the definitions in the Bill. The clause amends the definition of “tobacco product” in Scottish legislation to align it with the definition in the Bill. All tobacco products are harmful to health, so this definition will ensure that any future, novel tobacco products are captured by the legislation. The clause also amends Scotland’s definition of a nicotine vapour product to state that “‘vapour’ includes aerosol”, so that the definition more closely aligns with that of “vape” in the Bill. I therefore commend the clause to the Committee.

[Preet Kaur Gill]

I thank the Minister for that explanation. We support the clause, which broadens the definition of “tobacco product” in Scottish legislation and seeks to align that definition with legislation in the rest of the United Kingdom, and clarifies that the definition of nicotine vapour products specifically includes aerosols.

Above all, we support the principle that there should be clear and consistent definitions of the products that we seek to capture in regulations under the Bill across all four nations of the United Kingdom. I will take this opportunity to mention my query about the definitions that we use to capture tobacco-related products and accessories, particularly products used to augment the flavour of tobacco products, but we are happy to support the clause.

[Kirsten Oswald]

I reiterate the comments about the importance of setting out the definitions here so that there is clarity on the products where that is needed, including on new products that arrive in the market. I support the clause.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 46 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 47

Power to make consequential provision

Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.

[Dame Andrea Leadsom]

The clause confers a power on Scottish Ministers to make provision that is consequential on part 2 of the Bill. Regulations may amend, repeal or revoke any legislation passed before the Bill or later in the same Session of Parliament as the Bill, as well as any Act of the Scottish Parliament passed before the Bill. Regulations may amend primary legislation as well as secondary legislation.

Although every effort has been made to identify and make provision for any required amendments to primary legislation, the Bill brings together legislation that has been made over the last century, so there is a small likelihood that further consequential amendments may be required to enable the Bill to function effectively. It is therefore appropriate that Scottish Ministers have the power to make such changes to devolved legislation via secondary legislation. Any regulations amending primary legislation will be subject to the affirmative procedure. I therefore commend the clause to the Committee.

[Preet Kaur Gill]

We are happy to support this clause, which gives Scottish Ministers powers to make consequential amendments to this part of the Bill. Scotland has a proud history of leading the way on tobacco control and putting public health before corporate profit. It brought in the indoor smoking ban before the UK-wide one was introduced nearly 20 years ago. This week, we marked 25 years of the Scottish Parliament—a proud legacy of the previous Labour Government—and the principle of pushing power closer to communities so that Scottish solutions can be found to Scottish problems remains as strong as ever.

--- Later in debate ---

[Preet Kaur Gill]

I thank the Minister for setting out the Government’s explanation of the clause, which we are happy to support. As she said, it aligns the definition of the sale of nicotine products with the definitions we discussed when we debated clause 34. The caveated phrase “sale by retail” means that business-to-business sales need not be impacted by restrictions on age of sale.

The Minister may have touched on this, but I would be grateful if she can explain why Northern Ireland is only being given powers to close loopholes on the free distribution of nicotine products and the sale of non-nicotine vapes, while the Bill will immediately close those loopholes for England and Wales. I note that a study from last year found that half of under-18s in Belfast who attempt to purchase vapes in shops are successful. As I have explained, such loopholes and regulations undermine an understanding of the law and weaken enforcement by trading standards bodies, which cannot use the Medicines and Healthcare products Regulatory Agency’s notification publication as a definitive guide to which products are legal. Has the Minister received a commitment from Stormont on introducing such regulations? If so, what is the timeline for doing so?

[Dame Andrea Leadsom]

I can explore that further, but the hon. Lady will appreciate that the Stormont Assembly was re-established very late on—in fact, after First Reading if I recall rightly, or at least the decision for the Bill to be UK-wide came after First Reading. At speed, the Bill was amended to incorporate Northern Ireland, and there may well be further amendments relating to Northern Ireland. The hon. Lady makes a good point, and with your leave, Sir Gary, I will write to her.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 52 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 53

Free distribution of vapes and nicotine products

Amendment made: 25, in clause 53, page 26, line 32, leave out from “liable” to end of line 37 and insert

“on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding level 5 on the standard scale.”—(Dame Andrea Leadsom.)

This amendment changes the mode of trial and maximum penalty for an offence of free distribution of nicotine products or non-nicotine vaping products in Northern Ireland. It provides for the mode of trial to be summary only and for the maximum penalty to be a level 5 fine.

Clause 53, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 54 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 55

Consequential amendments to do with sections 51 to 54

--- Later in debate ---

[Dame Andrea Leadsom]

Clause 55 refers to schedule 5, which provides consequential amendments to clauses 51 to 54 relating to Northern Ireland. Schedule 5 amends two pieces of Northern Irish legislation—the Children and Young Persons (Protection from Tobacco) (Northern Ireland) Order 1991 and the Tobacco Retailers Act (Northern Ireland) 2014. Making amendments to existing legislation is required to enable the measures in clauses 51 to 54 to function as intended, and to ensure that the existing legislative regime works effectively. I commend clause 55 and schedule 5 to the Committee.

[Preet Kaur Gill]

I thank the Minister for setting that out. As we have discussed the effect of these amendments, I do not want to dwell on them. For the most part, they align legislation in Northern Ireland to capture tobacco products, nicotine products and vapes in the same way as the rest of the United Kingdom, including age of sale restrictions and the penalties for retailers who break those laws. It also specifically allows non-nicotine vapes to be captured by the same regulatory regime as nicotine vapes in the Tobacco Retailers Act (Northern Ireland) 2014, which we support.

As the Minister did not accept the amendment that I tabled in a recent sitting, I would like to draw her attention to some of the sections that schedule 5 amends. Particularly, section 12 on fixed penalty notices in the 2014 Act has allowed Ministers to introduce fixed penalty notices of £250 for breach of age of sale. In Scotland, that amount is set at £200. As we have discussed, the proposed amount in the Bill is £100 for England and Wales. Has the Minister given any more thought to that issue?

Likewise, the 2014 Act introduced a duty on councils to share information about fixed penalty notices, convictions and restricted premises and sales orders that had been given by officers in their local authority area. No similar duty has been introduced in the Bill, which touches on points I have made previously about the need for joined-up government to stop repeat offenders slipping through the net. In discussions with the devolved nations about the Bill, what efforts has the Minister made to learn from existing tobacco control legislation? Was it a conscious decision to set the fixed penalty notice regime at such a significantly lower level than in Northern Ireland and Scotland? Once again, I am keen to get a clearer sense of her thinking, although we of course welcome the inclusion of clause 5 and schedule 5 in the Bill.

[Dame Andrea Leadsom]

All I will say is that we discussed this matter comprehensively last week and I am sure we will discuss it again.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 55 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Schedule 5 agreed to.

Clause 56 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 57

Power to make consequential provision

Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.

--- Later in debate ---

[Dame Andrea Leadsom]

Clause 57 confers a power on the Department of Health in Northern Ireland to make provisions that are consequential on part 3 of the Bill. Such regulations may amend, repeal or revoke any legislation passed before or later in the same session of Parliament as this Bill. Regulations may amend primary legislation as well as secondary legislation.

Although every effort has been made to identify and make provision for any required amendments to primary legislation, the Bill brings together legislation that has been made over the last century, so there is a small likelihood that further consequential amendments may be required to enable the legislation to function effectively. It is therefore appropriate that the Government have the power to make such changes via secondary legislation. Any regulations that amend primary legislation will be subject to the affirmative procedure, in line with guidance from the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee. I therefore commend the clause to the Committee.

[Preet Kaur Gill]

We are happy to support the clause to give Ministers in Northern Ireland the power to make amendments consequential on this part of the legislation, just as we supported clause 47 for Scotland.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 57 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 58

Tobacco retail packaging

--- Later in debate ---

[Dame Andrea Leadsom]

I thank hon. Members for this debate and am grateful for the proposed amendments. I am sympathetic to the aims of the amendments, particularly those on pack inserts. They would provide an opportunity to introduce positive messages and provide more advice and support directly to smokers to help them to quit. The international evidence base shows that pack inserts can be effective in helping people to quit. For example, an evaluation in Canada showed that 26% to 31% of smokers had read the inserts at least once in the past month, which increased the likelihood of their making a quit attempt.

Pack inserts would complement our existing packaging measures, which include health warnings on packs and pointers to NHS advice on the benefits of quitting. We know that quitting smoking is associated with reduced depression, anxiety and stress, and that it improves mood and quality of life compared with continuing to smoke. Although it is a common belief that smoking can help one to relax, the evidence shows that it actually increases anxiety and tension, as it interferes with chemicals in the brain. Studies show that there are numerous mental health benefits from quitting smoking; quitting can in fact be as effective as antidepressants.

However, I point out to hon. Members that we already possess the regulation-making powers to go further on tobacco packaging. The Government’s eight-week consultation on pack inserts ran from August to October ’23. It explored whether we could help more smokers to quit by providing positive quit-themed information in tobacco packaging, alongside the existing information on harms. Proposed themes included the physical and mental health benefits of quitting, the financial benefits and advice on stop-smoking aids. The work to respond to the consultation is under way, and we are committed to responding in this parliamentary Session. That response will include details on the specific themes that may be included, such as anxiety and stress.

Amendments 22 and 23 and new clause 5 centre on the introduction of health warnings on cigarettes and cigarette papers, and would require the Secretary of State to undertake a consultation on that. As with new clause 4 and amendments 18 and 19, I am sympathetic towards the aims of the amendments, which would encourage smokers to quit and provide them with information on the dangers of tobacco. However, we already have some of the most stringent regulations in the world on tobacco packaging and product design, which emphasise the health harms of tobacco. They include the requirement for plain packaging and graphic picture warnings on the outside of cigarette packs. A recent post-implementation review stated that those measures remain effective in helping smokers to quit, and in deterring children from taking up the habit. We will continue to monitor the evidence as to whether further health-harm messages are required, and take further action if necessary. For that reason, I ask the hon. Member for Birmingham, Edgbaston to withdraw her amendments.

Clauses 58 and 60 are both in part 4 of the Bill, which relates to the product requirements for tobacco, vapes and nicotine products, including in respect of packaging and flavours. The powers in part 4 are UK-wide. Clauses 58 and 60 replace existing powers set out in the Children and Families Act 2014: clause 58 replaces powers to make provision about the retail packaging of tobacco products and clause 60 replaces powers to make regulations about other tobacco product requirements, such as the markings on them and the use of branding and logos.

The Standardised Packaging of Tobacco Products Regulations 2015 introduced requirements using the relevant powers, and the Bill will not change the effect of those regulations, which will remain in force. Examples include the regulations covering the minimum pack requirement of 20 cigarettes, the requirements about the colour and shape of cigarette packaging, and the permitted colours forming part of a cigarette. The packaging requirements were originally introduced because there is evidence that standardised packaging reduces the appeal of tobacco products and decreases or delays the uptake of smoking by young people. I commend the clauses to the Committee.

[Preet Kaur Gill]

I will press amendment 19 to a vote, but not amendment 18. I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Amendment proposed: 19, in clause 58, page 30, line 29, at end insert—

“(3A) The regulations must include—

(a) a requirement for information to be provided on packaging or otherwise supplied with a product stating that smoking does not reduce stress and anxiety;

(b) the specific wording of the statement to be displayed on the packaging or otherwise supplied with a product; and

(c) requirements related to the size or appearance of the statement to be displayed on the packaging or otherwise supplied with a product.”—(Preet Kaur Gill.)

Question put, That the amendment be made.

--- Later in debate ---

[Dame Andrea Leadsom]

As per the previous clause, clause 59 replaces an existing power in the 2014 Act to make regulations about the flavour of tobacco products. Flavours, particularly menthol, have been shown to make it easier for young people to start smoking and therefore more likely to become addicted. That is because menthol flavouring makes the smoke less harsh and therefore easier to inhale. The flavour masks the harms of tobacco. All tobacco is harmful to health, and it is right that the Government have the powers to protect the population from those harms, and especially from tobacco products that may be more attractive to children. I commend the clause to the Committee.

[Preet Kaur Gill]

As we discussed in the previous debate, tobacco is an insidious industry that causes untold harm to its customers, privatising the profits while socialising the costs. I know that there are many sceptics out there who suggest that the Bill’s central purpose—introducing a progressive rise in the age of sale—is not necessary because the number of people who smoke is steadily declining, especially among young people, but that makes the fundamental error of assuming that those gains are a natural force, not the hard-won result of concerted Government action over many years to reduce the appeal of tobacco.

Among the other measures, restrictions on the flavours of tobacco products that can be legally sold are certainly one, and we do not take it for granted that the powers are restated on the face of the Bill. However, as I have mentioned in previous debates, the issue of flavours has proven difficult to get right. Part of the issue is accessories such as drops, flavour cards and filter balls marketed to be added to tobacco products to give them flavours that they would otherwise not be allowed to have. I ask the Minister again whether she accepts the case that I have made for an amendment to the clause to include reference to accessories to tobacco products to capture such products.

There is also the issue of capturing flavours in legislation. As I mentioned earlier, a survey of smokers in Britain conducted in October 2020, five months after the menthol ban was introduced, and again in March 2023, found that the ban had had a negligible impact. The proportion of adult smokers reporting that they used menthol-flavoured cigarettes in 2023 compared with 2020 dropped by only 2%. Some in the sector went as far as labelling the ban worthless, as tobacco companies continue to sell hundreds of millions of cigarettes laced with menthol. Japan Tobacco International put a range of replacement products advertised as “menthol reimagined” on the market the day the ban came into effect.  That was backed up by a handbook for retailers on how to promoted the range, called “Making a Mint”. Smokers were quoted as saying that the products “tasted fully menthol”. A year later, Nielsen data showed that JTI had sold more than 100 million packs of it menthol reimagined brands, amounting to total sales topping £1 billion.

In 2020, Imperial Tobacco made formal complaints about the behaviour of JTI, claiming it was breaching the legislation, before following suit by launching its own green filter range. Does the Minister think that it is time to get it right, and that we should scrap the focus on so-called characterising flavours, which are subjective and difficult to regulate, and extend a ban to all tobacco flavours?

I note that the Government were meant to review the menthol ban legislation nearly three years ago, yet we have not heard anything since then. The whole point of the ban was to target flavours that make it easier for young people to start smoking and increase the likelihood that they will become addicted. I would be most grateful if the Minister shared her thinking on the issue.

[Dame Andrea Leadsom]

I will share my thinking, because this is important. We are all on the same side where the Bill is concerned, and I say very genuinely to hon. Members that there is an important debate about flavours. The hon. Member for Birmingham, Edgbaston says that we should scrap menthol, but the problem is that if we scrap menthol it will be reimagined as “raspberry mint crush”—it will still be menthol, but simply reimagined. That is the perfect example of how people can get round the legislation by calling it something else—something even more appealing to children.

The idea of tackling the issue in secondary legislation is to ensure that we stay ahead of the industry at all times. I understand the desire to put things in the Bill, but I hope all hon. Members recognise that there are also weaknesses associated with something which, if we are to change it, requires primary legislation to do so.

Clause 59 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 60 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 61

Retail packaging of vaping products and nicotine products

--- Later in debate ---

[Preet Kaur Gill]

New clause 10 would provide powers to the Secretary of State to amend regulations 36 and 38 of the Tobacco and Related Products Regulations 2016. As has been remarked several times in our debates, one of the biggest risks to the success of this legislation in achieving a smoke-free future and tackling youth vaping is that, if the Bill is not tightly worded, vexatious tobacco companies could find loopholes and workarounds. We have been discussing those with the failure of the flavours ban; the same goes for vapes.

To reiterate, Labour is ready to come down like a ton of bricks on any company that would attempt to profit at the expense of our children’s health. We know that the business model of tobacco and, let us face it, of vape companies is addiction. That is not to say that vapes are anywhere near as destructive and harmful as tobacco, but they are not good for us, and if we do not smoke, we should not vape.

The clauses on product requirements provide powers to the Secretary of State to create regulations for the retail packaging of vaping and nicotine products, as well as other product requirements, and they are, at face value, welcome. For a long time, we have been saying that we need to come down hard on those companies blatantly marketing nicotine addiction to children. I have seen egregious examples of that. It is not just the bright colours and pick-and-mix flavours. We heard in evidence from the NASUWT about vapes designed to look like USB sticks or highlighter pens so that they can easily fool teachers in schools. E-liquids available on the market called Candy King look like sherbet dip. I was sent one example from trading standards that really turned my stomach: a vape it seized that was shaped like a sippy cup. That is why we have long been calling for the standardisation of vape product requirements, to remove the risk that products can be designed to appeal to children. At a minimum, the regulations should allow for bright colouring and child-appealing imagery and product names to be removed.

The one thing that companies have shown time and again, however, is that they are agile. They are able to innovate faster than Government have been able to keep up, often to harmful ends. My concern with clauses 61 and 63, which new clause 10 seeks to address, is that the powers provided are limited. In clause 61(3), the wording specifies that the regulations that the Secretary of State may create may include provisions about

“features of the packaging of vaping products or nicotine products which could be used to distinguish between different brands of the product”.

The same phrase is used about other product requirements in clause 63(1)(f). My concern is that such a caveat could exclude revision to generic standards, such as capacity of refills, cartridges or pods, and nicotine delivery.

As I mentioned, we have heard how part of the issue with the use of vapes is their tactility. They are discreet and can easily be hidden, and all evidence I have received about the concurrent disposable proposals that are being worked on by the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs is that there will be little change. The leading producers will be able to meet those new requirements with a few minor adjustments to their products, such as attaching a USB port. I appreciate from his amendment that the hon. Member for Harrow East has similar concerns. I therefore think we should include provisions for other requirements to be introduced for these products that would have an impact on their use by children, while maintaining their viability as an attractive stop-smoking aid.

I include in new clause 10 powers to amend regulation 38 of the Tobacco and Related Products Regulations 2016, as well as regulation 36 on general product requirements, as they cover a range of miscellaneous presentational issues such as misleading or harmful claims that the product has certain health or lifestyle benefits, or attempts to mimic other items. I note, for example, that the current regulations specify that vapes cannot look like a food or cosmetic product, but that does not include looking like stationery, which was an issue identified in evidence by the NASUWT. Conversely, those regulations specify that a product cannot make any environmental claims where it may, in fact, be beneficial to do so to encourage greater use of reusable features once the regulations on single-use vapes come into effect.

Simply put, the purpose of the new clause is to give greater flexibility to Ministers to design regulations that can respond to problems as they arise and so that those powers are not limited to the aesthetic features of packaging or the products themselves, but can prohibit product claims and other characteristics that may appeal to children. My concern is that the legislation as drafted would not achieve that, particularly as we are dealing with regulations that were designed for vapes but which, through the Bill, could be extended to a host of as yet less understood nicotine products. We therefore need that flexibility.

[Dame Andrea Leadsom]

I am genuinely grateful to hon. Members for bringing this discussion before the Committee. We all agree that with vaping, product packaging is an integral part of what we are seeking to avoid for children. As I have said before, I am on the warpath where promoting vaping to children is concerned. I want to assure all hon. Members that the reason I resist the amendments is that we already have the powers in the Bill and I want to explain how that is so.

I am sympathetic to the concerns raised. Making sure we have the right powers to tackle the appeal of vapes to children is crucial and integral. It is totally clear that the design of many vapes is targeted at children, with brightly coloured features and eye-catching designs. There is no way we will stand by while industry knowingly, deliberately and maliciously encourages children to take up addiction and use products that have been designed for adults to quit smoking. The chief medical officer has written:

“Companies trying to addict children for profit are behaving in a shameful way. Yet it is undoubtedly happening.”

That is why we are bringing forward powers to regulate product requirements as part of the Bill.

I am sympathetic to the broadening of the scope of our regulations so they cover all product and packaging features and requirements, as in amendment 21. However, the Bill already contains regulation-making powers to make provision, in relation to vaping and nicotine products, for things such as appearance, size and packaging, as well as the substances that may be included and the amount of any substance within the e-liquid, including nicotine.

--- Later in debate ---

[Dame Andrea Leadsom]

This clause provides the Department of Health and Social Care Secretary of State with a power to regulate the contents and flavour of vaping products and nicotine products.

Vaping is never recommended for children and, as we have just discussed, risks addiction and long-term health impacts. We know that children are attracted to the fruit and sweet flavours of vapes, both in their taste and smell, as well as how they are described. For example, the most frequently used vape flavouring for children is fruit flavour, with 60% of children who currently vape using them; and 17% of children who vape choose sweet flavours such as chocolate or candy.

We also recognise the importance of vape flavours to adult smokers who are looking to quit smoking. It is, therefore, important that we carefully consider the scope and impact of restrictions so that we reduce the appeal of vaping to children, while avoiding any unintended consequences on adult smoking rates. We have committed to consult on any regulatory measures regarding flavours. I can tell the Committee that I had an interesting roundtable with members of the public health sector, who were themselves entirely divided on whether reducing vapes significantly would encourage adult smokers to carry on smoking, rather than turning to vaping. It is a very live issue, at which we need to look carefully.

To achieve these aims, the clause will enable the Government to make regulations in future to regulate the substances and the amount of any given substance that may be used in vaping or other nicotine products, as well as the flavours of those products. That also means that regulations are future-proofed in the event of new nicotine products coming to market; we will be able to regulate any new nicotine product, and protect our children from future addiction and health harms. I commend the clause to the Committee.

[Preet Kaur Gill]

I thank the Minister for her explanation of the clause. As I have already outlined, we are very concerned about the explosion in under-age vaping in recent years, with youth use trebling in the past two years alone. I think I speak for everyone in the Labour party when I say that we have been very concerned about some of the products appearing on our local shop shelves, which are obviously marketed to children.

I do not want to lump the whole of the industry in together, but some of these companies are clearly linked to big tobacco and have used big tobacco-style tactics to target youngsters. They see the way things are going with smoking and have sought to addict a new generation through vapes and other products. We therefore support the clause, which will allow us to stop products with flavours mimicking popular sweets or with bizarre names like “unicorn shake” from sucking young people and other vulnerable non-smokers in. I am afraid to say that the Government have been asleep at the wheel on this issue, and there has been a bit of a free-for-all as a result. I was flabbergasted to learn from the MHRA that something like 600,000 different vaping products have gone through the notification process and can legally be sold in the UK now.

All that said, I do appreciate the genuine and legitimate concern from people who have used vapes to help them quit smoking that, in seeking to course correct, the Government could go too far in the other direction and take away the flavours that they enjoy and feel have helped them stay off cigarettes. I appreciate that my hon. Friend the Member for North Tyneside has raised concerns to that effect, and I want to reassure her that we are committed to consulting on this issue before introducing regulations, so that we can get the balance right.

I have mentioned on previous clauses that when it comes to tobacco regulation, some of the restrictions on flavours have been among the least successful of any regulations brought in by successive Governments in recent decades. In the disappointment of the menthol ban is the cautionary tale that implementing these regulations will take thought and care. Similarly, the quagmire that the Food and Drug Administration in the US has sunk into is something we should obviously seek to avoid. I wonder if the Minister could therefore comment on what lessons she has drawn from the US, where the blanket ban on flavours has seen only a few dozen products approved for legal sale in three years, while illegal products remain widely available in stores.

The key issue we need to crack is what the best way is of dealing with flavours—is it descriptors, ingredients or the characterising flavour itself? On the latter point, I have already mentioned the menthol ban. Can the Minister please set out her view on how to proceed, given that the Bill leaves the specifics of how to implement restrictions on flavours quite open, including how the flavour of a product is to be determined. Has she conducted a systematic review of how Governments in other jurisdictions have sought to tackle this? Given our desire to protect the use of vapes as a smoking cessation aid, can she set out how restrictive she thinks regulations on flavours should be? Would she go as far as Canada in banning all fruit flavours, for instance? Given that the powers in the clause may be some of the trickiest to implement, I would be grateful if she could devote time in her response to answering these questions.

--- Later in debate ---

[Dame Andrea Leadsom]

Clause 64 enables any regulations made under the Bill relating to the packaging, flavours and other requirements of tobacco, vape and nicotine products to include provision about their enforcement. That will enable future regulations to include enforcement provisions similar to the enforcement provisions for current tobacco and vape legislation, which are known to be effective. Those include provisions conferring functions to the relevant enforcement authority—local weights and measures authorities in England, Wales and Scotland, and district councils in Northern Ireland—and provisions for the relevant national authority to take over the enforcement function. The effect of the clause is that future regulations relating to the requirements of tobacco, vape and nicotine products can include provisions about their enforcement and so be successfully implemented and enforced. I commend the clause to the Committee.

[Preet Kaur Gill]

I thank the Minister for that explanation. Of course, where we create new regulations, we must give powers to the appropriate authorities to enforce them, so we support the clause. I do not want to labour the point, as I have made it previously, but I did not receive all the answers to the questions that I asked, so I will ask them again. How will the £30 million investment in enforcement agencies such as trading standards, His Majesty’s Revenue and Customs, and Border Force be split? Is it a one-off investment? If it is, what is the timeframe over which the investment will be delivered? Or will it be an annual uplift to support their work? Can the Minister provide a breakdown of what the investment will be used to fund?

[Dame Andrea Leadsom]

The funding for enforcement agencies will be increased by £30 million a year, to be used by HMRC, Border Force and trading standards, and the breakdown of the funding will be determined on an ongoing basis.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 64 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 65

Power to make provision binding the Crown

Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.

[Dame Andrea Leadsom]

This clause states that when regulations are made under part 4 of the Bill—on tobacco, vaping and nicotine product requirements—the requirements could be applied to the Crown in the same way as the measures in part 1 of the Bill explicitly apply to the Crown. It is a standard clause that enables any regulations made under part 4 of the Bill to apply to the Crown in the same way as the measures in part 1. I commend the clause to the Committee.

[Preet Kaur Gill]

As with part 1, we have no objections to raise about this clause.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 65 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 66

Power to amend other legislation

Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.

[Dame Andrea Leadsom]

I commend the clause to the Committee.

[Preet Kaur Gill]

I touched on this in relation to my new clause 10, which was grouped under clause 61. Clearly, a gamut of regulations on the statute book stands to be affected by further regulations that will be introduced under the Bill. It is therefore apposite to provide powers to amend or remove them as they are changed or replaced. We therefore agree to the inclusion of this clause.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 66 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 67

Consent to regulations under Part 4

Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.

[Dame Andrea Leadsom]

Clause 67 requires that, before the introduction of any regulations setting product requirements for tobacco, vaping and nicotine products, the Secretary of State must obtain consent from the devolved Administrations if the regulations include provisions that would be within their devolved competence. This is a standard clause that enables the Bill to function effectively. I commend the clause to the Committee.

[Preet Kaur Gill]

I thank the Minister for that. We of course agree with this clause to ensure that, wherever appropriate, consensus is sought on any regulations made under this part of the Bill.

Question put and agreed to.  

Clause 67 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 68

Consequential repeal

Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.

[Dame Andrea Leadsom]

I commend the clause to the Committee.

--- Later in debate ---

[Dame Andrea Leadsom]

Clause 69 sets out definitions to be used within the Bill, such as those to identify certain tobacco products—such as herbal smoking products—retail definitions such as retail packaging, and vape-related phrasing such as “vape” or “vaporises”. These definitions were previously covered in clause 34 under part 1 of the Bill.

Clause 70 simply provides the definition of nicotine product used throughout part 4 of the Bill. The definition that we use here is intended to capture nicotine delivery devices and products other than vapes and tobacco products. That will enable us to regulate emerging products, such as nicotine pouches, which we know are being used increasingly by young people. We simply cannot replace one generation addicted to nicotine with another; we know how damaging it is once someone is addicted. I commend these clauses to the Committee.

[Preet Kaur Gill]

I will not go over the same points I raised for the previous clause on the distinction between packaging and retail packaging. As the Minister says, the clauses relate to the definitions in this part of the Bill, so we have no strong quibbles. For clarity, I want to ask why the definition of nicotine product has been drafted in the way that it has. Why does the definition differ from that in clause 35 in part 1? Why have the Government not opted to define nicotine and tobacco products in similar ways, which would encompass both the ingredients and the devices used to consume them?

I note the carve-out of medicinal products and medical devices from the definition of vapes. Could the Minister tell us what, if any, discussions she has had with vape producers about designing a product that could be licensed as a medicinal product and potentially made available on prescription? If she has had no discussions, what does she see as the barriers? Lastly, has she considered whether there is any potential for other nicotine products to serve the same purpose as stop-smoking aides that are appropriate for clinical use?

[Dame Andrea Leadsom]

The definitions are to provide the broadest and most flexible range of powers to clamp down on all the various illicit and under-age products designed to get children addicted to nicotine as early as possible. The hon. Lady makes an interesting point about getting a licensed vape, and we have had discussions about it. Interestingly, so far no vape company has come forward to propose a prescription-only type of vape, as she suggests. That may happen in the future, and it is something we can perhaps discuss offline.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 69 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 70 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 71

Extension of notification requirements etc

Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.

Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Sixth sitting)

Debate between Preet Kaur Gill and Andrea Leadsom

Committee stage
Thursday 9th May 2024 Public Bill Committees

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health and Social Care (Dame Andrea Leadsom)]

Welcome back, everyone.

Clause 10 provides regulation-making powers for the Secretary of State for Health and Social Care in England, and Welsh Ministers, to extend the offences relating to the sale, purchase and free distribution of vapes to other consumer nicotine products, such as nicotine pouches. Clause 43 gives Scottish Ministers the equivalent regulation-making powers. Part 3 of the Bill provides for similar measures for Northern Ireland, which will be discussed separately. The measures will ensure that we have a consistent approach across our nations to protecting children from accessing other nicotine products and being exposed to the health harms and addictive nature of nicotine. They also address a point that was raised earlier by hon. Members.

Nicotine is a highly addictive drug, and we must not replace one generation addicted to nicotine with another. Giving up nicotine is very difficult, because the body has to get used to functioning without it. Withdrawal symptoms can include cravings, irritability, anxiety, trouble concentrating, headaches and other mental symptoms. Evidence also suggests that the brain in adolescence is more sensitive to the effects of nicotine, so there could be additional risks for young people.

Under current legislation, there are no mandatory age restrictions on other consumer nicotine products. Although data suggests that the use of other nicotine products is low overall, there is a growing trend of use, particularly among adolescent boys, and there are indications that industry is beginning to encourage the uptake of other nicotine products. As we work to tackle youth vaping, it is important that there are not loopholes that can be exploited to put children at risk of nicotine addiction through the use of other nicotine products. That is why we are including powers to extend age of sale, proxy purchasing and age verification requirements to other nicotine products.

Clauses 10 and 43 are an important part of our work in ensuring that the collective package of measures in the Bill succeeds in protecting children from potential health harms. I therefore commend them to the Committee.

[Preet Kaur Gill (Birmingham, Edgbaston) (Lab/Co-op)]

We support clause 10 as a tidying provision that ensures that the additional restrictions on the sale and free distribution of vaping products to under-18s can be extended to other nicotine products in England that have the potential to cause similar harms. It provides that the measures in clauses 7 to 9 can be extended to emerging products such as nicotine pouches, and clause 43 makes similar provisions for Scotland.

It is clearly not right that addictive nicotine products can be sold and freely distributed to children. Awareness of the products is growing, and legislation needs to keep up. According to research by Action on Smoking and Health, awareness and usage of nicotine pouches is higher among younger adults, and just over 5% of 18 to 24-year-olds have tried one. As with vapes, the marketing of nicotine pouches is likely to be attractive to children and young people, with similar branding to sweets and soft drinks. At present, a loophole means that it is not illegal to sell them to children, so I support the measures to close it.

Will the Minister set out her intentions with regard to the use of the new powers, and what conversations she has had with devolved nations on the issue? Will she also explain the Government’s view on the potential harms from the use of nicotine pouches? Does she believe that these products could have value as a stop-smoking aid, like vaping? What merit does she see in including the products in regulations similar to the tobacco-related products regulations for vapes? If she intends to introduce regulations on nicotine pouches, can she set out her intended timescale for that?

--- Later in debate ---

[Dame Andrea Leadsom]

Clause 11 provides a regulation-making power to allow the Secretary of State for Health and Social Care in England and the Welsh Ministers in Wales to introduce future restrictions or requirements on the display of vaping and nicotine products, and their packaging and pricing where they are offered for sale. Clause 45 provides the same regulation-making power to Scottish Ministers, and clause 54 provides the power to Northern Ireland.

At this point, I would like to reiterate our plans for future vaping regulations, including on vape displays. I have made a commitment to consult on future regulations. Any regulations made will be accompanied by clear impact assessments. We will introduce new regulations as soon as possible following the passage of the Bill.

We simply cannot replace one generation addicted to nicotine with another, and we know that giving up nicotine is so difficult because the body must get used to functioning without it. Withdrawal symptoms can include cravings, irritability, anxiety, trouble concentrating, headaches and other mental symptoms. Despite this very clear health advice, there has been a significant and alarming rise in the number of children vaping in this country. Data shows that the number of young people vaping has tripled in just the last three years, and now one in five children has used a vape. That is alarming and unacceptable.

Evidence shows us that vapes are currently far too easily accessible to children within shops. Vapes are sometimes displayed alongside sweets and confectionery in retail environments, and often promoted in shopfront windows. These products are too easily seen and too readily available to children, and we have a duty to protect our children from harm. These clauses therefore provide regulation-making powers for new restrictions on where and how vapes and nicotine products can be displayed within a retail setting, and ensure that we are aligned right across the United Kingdom. The display restrictions will include both packaging and pricing. Future regulations on point-of-sale displays will help to reduce the ease of access to vapes to children, and the degree to which vapes can be targeted at children. These are important clauses to help us tackle youth vaping and to protect children from addiction and future health harms.

[Preet Kaur Gill]

We welcome the inclusion of these powers to regulate the display of nicotine and vaping products in retail settings. All of us have seen what has been happening in some shops: as the Minister said, colourful products that look like confectionery kept next to the pick ’n’ mix at pocket money prices. I appreciate that some in the sector have concerns that regulations on point-of-sale displays need to be balanced in respect of their impact on retailers, given existing restrictions on products like tobacco and some of the associated costs. In my view, however, there is no argument against the inclusion of the powers themselves.

I heard from a retail worker at a major supermarket chain that they are paid by the vaping companies to put displays of vapes in prominent locations in their stores. These are often far away from the tills, where there is little to no oversight by staff. I was told that where children once shoplifted sweets, they are now going straight for these products. One worries that the vape companies are almost happy to lose them, if they can get a new customer addicted who they know will come back for more.

None the less, I want to highlight that there appears to be broad support for some restrictions on the display of vapes among retailers. I note that in the Action on Smoking and Health survey of retailers in England and Wales, 80% of tobacco retailers supported prohibiting advertising and promotion of vapes or vaping products in store, and requiring them to be put behind the counter; only 12% were opposed. I would be grateful if the Minister outlined whether it is her firm view—she has alluded to it—that vapes should be kept behind the counter, or whether display should be prohibited entirely, which seems to be what the Government have looked at in their impact assessment. Alternatively, does she feel that further consultation is necessary?

I would also like to raise other questions about the potential for such regulations to be undermined. Clause 34 of the Bill provides an interpretation of terms used in part 1 of the Bill, but it does not define “retailer”. I therefore wonder whether other forms of display for sale would be caught under the powers as drafted here. I am thinking of vape vending machines, which are not in widespread use now but could be in the future.

Have her officials looked at that issue? Given the introduction of some vending machines with automated age verification features, has the Minister considered prohibiting vape vending machines, as has happened in Scotland? We can easily see how this situation could undermine the consistency of regulations on displays.

--- Later in debate ---

[Dame Andrea Leadsom]

My hon. Friend makes a really good point. It also justifies why this is particularly complicated to explain, let alone to take in. That is one of the reasons why there is a long lead-in period for that new regulation. There will be training for retail. We have discussed this with various industry bodies, and they support it and consider that there is enough time for them to get up to speed. Essentially, that strays into the issue of the quantum of fines. The idea is that it is effectively an on-the-spot fine; it is really, “Two strikes and you’re out.” If someone offends twice, they will end up with a restricted premises order, and if they offend again, they will get an unlimited fine. It is an appropriate escalation. At the starting point, there are a number of other fines that are of a similar quantum, where someone could potentially argue, “Well, I did not realise. I am new; I did not get the training; I was not here that day,” and then it is not such a painful fine. They would certainly learn their lesson, however, and after two offences it escalates very significantly.

Clause 56 amends the Tobacco Retailers Act (Northern Ireland) 2014 and introduces the power for the Department of Health in Northern Ireland to amend the definition of a tobacco, nicotine or non-nicotine vape offence for which a restricted premises order can be issued. That is the same provision made for England and Wales in clause 15. Clauses 15, in England and Wales, and 56, in Northern Ireland, are important to maintain the longevity of the legislation. They will ensure that enforcement action remains up to date to reflect any relevant new tobacco or vape products that come on to the market in future. I therefore commend the clauses to the Committee.

[Preet Kaur Gill]

We support the introduction of restricted premises orders for breach of age of sale laws on nicotine and vaping products in the same way that they already exist for tobacco. A repeat offender should know that there are serious consequences for breaching age of sale legislation, so I strongly support the principle of providing a strong deterrent to any retailers that would break the law. The threat of enforcement action cannot be seen as the cost of doing business.

I have a few questions about how the orders work in practice. The Bill introduces a requirement for trading standards authorities to consider whether to conduct a programme of enforcement at least once a year. That is not a strong requirement. There is nothing to say that local teams must conduct any enforcement action within a two-year period on the matter, even if they receive complaints, and many trading standards teams are woefully under-resourced. Therefore, the requirement for the powers to be used for “persistent” offences, meaning at least two breaches within a two-year period, suggests to me that the orders will be very seldom used.

That is not to mention the question of how the orders would be enforced once granted by a magistrates court, or indeed the backlogs before that. Can the Minister say how many times restricted premises orders have been used in relation to tobacco in recent years, or even in the last decade? We heard from trading standards at the evidence sessions that boots are needed on the ground to make this work. My understanding is that of the money that the Government have announced for enforcement, only £10 million will go to trading standards. Will the Minister confirm whether that is correct?

At the same time, the Chartered Trading Standards Institute is warning that its profession is in jeopardy because of a lack of investment. Its funding has been cut by 50% over the past decade, and it estimates that around the UK as much as half the workforce is set to retire over the next decade. Has the Minister heard any of those concerns? What conversations has she had with colleagues and other Departments about staff retention and investment?

I am foregrounding one of my amendments to a later clause, but I am of the view that the proposed fixed penalty notice powers will be a more effective mechanism to enforce compliance on age of sale, particularly given the clause on use of proceeds, if we do not have strong reassurances that trading standards will get the necessary resources from central Government.

We strongly welcome any measure that will aid authorities in cracking down on the sale of tobacco, vapes and nicotine products to children. However, I urge the Minister to look again at whether the new regulations will be coupled with the enforcement action needed on the ground. Without it, they will not achieve what we need them to, and more young people will fall prey to addiction.

[Dame Andrea Leadsom]

I am pleased that the hon. Lady supports the clauses. They are absolutely vital to ensure that we have the proper enforcement powers. She asked about the investment in enforcement. I can tell her that we are investing over £30 million of new funding a year into enforcement agencies, including trading standards, HMRC and Border Force. That increased investment will boost enforcement surrounding the sale of illicit tobacco and illicit vapes and help local trading standards with enforcement on underage sales of tobacco and vaping products at a local level. There will also be £100 million of funding over five years to support HMRC and Border Force’s new illicit tobacco strategy, which will seek to tackle the illicit trade and create a new illicit tobacco taskforce. Various measures are under way, including training, but enforcement will be absolutely key.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 12 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clauses 13 to 15 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 16

Restricted sale orders

Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.

[Dame Andrea Leadsom]

Clauses 16 and 17 are based on and replace existing legislation for England and Wales. They relate to restricted sale orders, which is one of several measures in the Bill that will ensure that our enforcement approach to tackling under-age sales is both effective and proportionate.

Clause 16 provides that a persistent offender can be issued with a restricted sale order, which is similar to a restricted premises order but puts a ban on an individual from selling tobacco or vape products rather than a business. The clause is important for the overall functioning of the Bill as it provides local authority trading standards with a further tool for enforcement. Restricted sale orders also act as a deterrent to persistent offenders as they apply to a specific person, regardless of their place of employment.

Clause 17 makes it an offence to breach a restricted sale order. The offence is committed when the individual has done something, such as sell a product, that they have been prohibited from doing under the order. As with restricted premises orders, making it an offence to breach restricted sale orders gives local authority trading standards the ability to escalate action to tackle persistent offenders. The penalty for breaching a restricted sale order is an unlimited fine, which will again be a good deterrent. I commend clauses 16 and 17 to the Committee.

[Preet Kaur Gill]

Once again, we support these clauses, which will provide an effective deterrent to those who would sell addictive products to children and ensure that repeat offenders have that freedom taken away. I echo my comments on restricted premises orders: the success of the policy will depend on effective enforcement. May I ask the Minister why the Government have not provided similar powers to add to the list of relevant offences for which a restricted sale order can be issued, as they have with a restricted premises order? What is the rationale there?

Likewise, I am interested in whether the Minister has data on how many of those orders have been issued in relation to tobacco in recent years. I think she has clarified that the orders are designed to stop repeat offenders being able to simply move around, but can she assure us that local trading standards authorities are sufficiently joined up, and that someone moving between different shops in other local authorities in a retail chain could be picked up?

Once again, we support the principle of the clauses, which brings the consequences of breaching age of sale law for vaping and nicotine products into line with the existing laws for tobacco, but I have some concerns about how it will work in practice. I would be grateful if the Minister could address those.

[Dame Andrea Leadsom]

I thank the hon. Lady for her points, which were all very well made. If I may, I will write to her about her question of how many times such orders have been used in the past. I will reflect on what she says about the ability to enforce. I have set out the amount of new funds going to enforcement and the plans for further education and training, but I will certainly reflect on her point.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 16 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 17 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 18

Liability of others for certain offences committed by bodies

Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.

--- Later in debate ---

[Dame Andrea Leadsom]

Clauses 19, 20 and 21 relate to the enforcement requirements of local weights and measures authorities in England and Wales. Clause 19 places the duty to enforce the tobacco and vaping measures in England and Wales on local weights and measures authorities. For England and Wales,

“local weights and measures authorities”

means local authority trading standards.

The clause provides local authority trading standards with the power to use the investigatory powers under the Consumer Rights Act 2015 to conduct their enforcement activity. The investigatory powers are comprehensive and include the power to purchase products, observe a business, enter premises with or without a warrant, inspect products, test equipment, require the production of documents, seize goods, seize documents as evidence, break open containers and require assistance from persons on the premises. The existing regulatory regime for tobacco enforcement provides for local authority trading standards to use the same investigatory powers, which are considered to be effective, and thus clause 19 provides continuity with the current enforcement approach, ensuring enforcement of this new legislation at the local level.

Clause 20 provides a requirement for local authority trading standards in England to consider yearly a programme of enforcement, and the potential design of such a programme of enforcement, for offences under part 1 of the Bill. A programme of enforcement includes at least one of the following: investigations of complaints regarding alleged offences, prosecutions in respect of such offences, and/or other measures intended to reduce the incidence of such offences. The clause is important to the Bill, as it reconfirms what local authority trading standards should consider as appropriate to enforce the tobacco and vapes regulations.

Clause 21 makes the same provision for programmes of enforcement in Wales as is made for England under clause 20. I commend clauses 19, 20, and 21 to the Committee.

[Preet Kaur Gill]

Trading standards officers are experts in this area. They know what they are looking for in retail settings, they are experts in the legislation they have to enforce, and they do an important job in difficult circumstances. As we heard in evidence, trading standards officers enforce dozens of regulations, but in many local authorities there are barely one or two officers to do the job. As we consider the new regulations that we give to them to enforce, it is important that we make sure they get the support they need to do the job.

As I mentioned, I have some concerns about clause 20, in that it provides a relatively weak basis on which to compel a programme of enforcement to be carried out. However, I am glad it at least sets out something of the Minister’s expectations, and we acknowledge that different local authorities face different local challenges. We do not want to be overly prescriptive in what we set in law. The issue therefore comes down to resources, so can the Minister tell us what has been the result of Operation Joseph and whether it will be continuing? I note that it received £3 million in funding last year, but the timeframe in which that was scheduled to be delivered was unclear. Can the Minister clear that up?

The Chartered Trading Standards Institute estimates that one in three vapes on British shelves may be illicit, which suggests that local authorities are struggling to fully get to grips with existing enforcement priorities, as we add new ones. What assessment have the Government made of authorities’ capacity to absorb these new responsibilities with the resources allocated?

--- Later in debate ---

[Dame Andrea Leadsom]

Clauses 22 and 23 relate to powers for Ministers to take over enforcement in England and Wales. Clause 22 provides a power for the Secretary of State for the Department of Health and Social Care or Welsh Ministers to carry out the enforcement of a particular case, or a particular type of case, instead of local authority trading standards.

Trading standards operate in all local authorities, and it is standard practice that they undertake required local enforcement action, as will be the case for offences under part 1 of the Bill. However, a situation could arise where they are unable or unwilling to undertake enforcement in a particular case. For example, a tobacco company could develop a new tobacco product that it argues is outside the scope of enforcement, which could result in trading standards being hesitant about pursuing action—as we have discussed, tobacco companies are nothing if not inventive in their determination.

Clause 22 replaces, and is based on, existing legislation. It allows for the Secretary of State for Health and Social Care or Welsh Ministers to take over enforcement action, should that be deemed necessary, and it ensures consistent, strong and effective enforcement of the tobacco and vape measures in the Bill.

Clause 23 provides a power for the Secretary of State for Health and Social Care or Welsh Ministers to take over from trading standards the conduct of any legal proceedings relating to an offence under part 1 of the Bill. In a similar manner to clause 22, this clause replaces, and is based on, existing legislation. It allows the Secretary of State for Health and Social Care or Welsh Ministers to take over the conduct of any legal proceedings, should that be deemed necessary, and it ensures consistent, strong and effective enforcement of the provisions in part 1 of the Bill. I therefore commend clauses 22 and 23 to the Committee.

[Preet Kaur Gill]

Let me start by saying that I support these two clauses being added to the Bill, providing the Secretary of State with powers to take over enforcement functions from local authorities or to take legal proceedings in court instead of a local enforcement authority.

The rationale for these additions is, first, to ensure that where local authorities are unwilling or unable to take enforcement action, the Government themselves can intervene to speed that work up and get it done. That can only be a useful backstop, although it does underline the important points that I and other colleagues have raised about local authorities having appropriate resources to discharge their responsibilities in the first instance. Secondly, as we heard in evidence, there is the matter of illicit tobacco, and often vapes too, being linked to organised crime. Such criminal networks often span large areas, crossing local authority lines, and in theory it could be useful for national Government to intervene in large cases that extend beyond the jurisdiction of a single local authority.

We hope that the work of trading standards officers is sufficiently joined up with the work of officers in other local authorities and the work of national agencies such as the MHRA and Border Force, but the point remains that national authorities should be able to step in if required. Nevertheless, I would be grateful if the Minister could for the record expand on how she would expect to utilise the powers in clause 22 and in what scenario she would consider that necessary. Could she also confirm whether she plans to devote additional resources to national trading standards as part of her plans to deal with the rapid growth of the illicit market in vapes in recent years, including unsafe products with illegal nicotine strengths and so on?

Given the widespread appearance of some illicit products on the shelves of shops and the co-ordination work that will need to be undertaken with the likes of Border Force to stop such illicit products getting into the country, in what scenario would the Minister consider it appropriate for the national authorities to lead on certain priorities instead of local teams? We know that local trading standards officers are often intelligence-led, whereas national authorities have greater resources at their disposal. How is that work co-ordinated, and can we do it better?

[Dame Andrea Leadsom]

I thank the hon. Member for Birmingham, Edgbaston for her comments and views. She asked a really important question: will we enforce at a national level? The answer is that, at the moment, we want to be able to enable that, should it prove necessary. She will be aware that, as I set out, we are expanding—by £30 million a year—the resourcing available to His Majesty’s Revenue and Customs, trading standards and Border Force to clamp down and enforce. As that work progresses, we may well uncover organised crime, for example, or significant bad practice that, as she rightly pointed out, crosses local borders and where a national-level intervention would be more appropriate. I cannot tell her right now what the plan is, because it will emerge over time, but having those powers is essential.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 22 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 23 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 24

Fixed penalty notices

[Preet Kaur Gill]

I beg to move amendment 20, in clause 24, page 12, line 14, leave out “£100” and insert “£200”.

--- Later in debate ---

[Dame Andrea Leadsom]

Indeed.

[Preet Kaur Gill]

I thank the Minister, although of course I am disappointed at her rejecting the arguments that she has heard today. I welcome the suggestion from the hon. Member for Harrow East. I think that that would be a fairly reasonable way forward. Of course, we do not know whether the Minister will make those amendments.

The Minister talked about a fixed penalty notice of £100, but actually, that is not true, because people have 14 days and it is reduced to £50. I do not see £50 as a deterrent. I think that if it were £200, for example, and people therefore had to pay £100 within 14 days, that would be more likely to be a deterrent. I would therefore like to press the amendment to a Division.

Question put, That the amendment be made.

Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Fifth sitting)

Debate between Preet Kaur Gill and Andrea Leadsom

Committee stage
Thursday 9th May 2024 Public Bill Committees

[Dame Andrea Leadsom]

First, I pay tribute to my hon. Friend for his very long-standing campaign to stamp out nicotine and tobacco. He is absolutely right that we will need to make it very clear to members of the public, retailers and health organisations our intention to stamp out all tobacco products, because they are all unsuitable for our smoke-free generation. I will make a note of his concern, take it away and make sure that the legislation makes things as clear as it possibly can.

The Bill also applies to cigarette papers, as do current age of sale restrictions. Their bleaches and dyes add to the volume of smoke and the range of toxicants in the smoke, contributing additional risks to smokers. Likewise, herbal cigarettes are included in the legislation, as they are harmful to health. Although their smoke does not contain nicotine or tobacco, it does contain cancer-causing chemicals, tar and carbon monoxide similar to a tobacco cigarette.

I will briefly mention clause 41, which amends the Scottish legislation to include herbal smoking products under provisions for age of sale, age verification policy, sales by under-18s, proxy purchasing and vending machines. With their harms outlined above, it is right that herbal smoking products be included within the current and future tobacco control legislation. By extending this legislation, Scotland will be aligned with the other UK nations. This measure will also support the effective implementation and enforcement of the Bill by providing consistency for enforcement officers, industry, retailers and consumers across the UK.

To complement the smoke-free generation policy, we are also bringing forward clause 2, which makes it an offence for someone over the age of 18 to purchase tobacco products, herbal smoking products or cigarette papers on behalf of someone born on or after 1 January 2009 in England and Wales; this is known as proxy purchasing. Proxy purchasing of these products by an adult for someone under age is already prohibited; the clause makes it an offence for any adult to buy these products for someone in the smoke-free generation—that is, born on or after 1 January 2009. That means someone might be caught by the offence if they are also too young to be sold the products themselves, but we did not want to overcomplicate the application of this offence.

We hope this measure will send a clear message to stop people trying to buy products for people under the age of sale. Proxy purchasing in Scotland and Northern Ireland will also be updated through clauses 37 and 48 to align with the new age of sale. These provisions are essential to ensure there are no loopholes in the age of sale legislation, and build on what we have found to work in the current age of sale legislation.

Finally, I present clause 49 to the Committee. The clause amends a provision in the Health and Personal Social Services (Northern Ireland) Order 1978 to provide the Department of Health in Northern Ireland with the power to amend the definition of “sale” to mean “sale by retail”. If the power is used, only sales from a retailer to a customer will be caught by the tobacco age of sale offence, which will therefore not include business to business sales, such as sales between a wholesaler and a retailer. This measure would bring the type of sales caught by the tobacco age of sale offence in Northern Ireland in line with those in England, Wales and Scotland. Fundamentally, the clauses included in this group are essential to implementing the smoke-free generation policy.

There is both strong cross-party and cross-nation support for these measures. It is clear that we all acknowledge the need to protect future generations from the harms of smoking. No one wants their children to ever start smoking. In England alone, it could prevent almost half a million cases of heart disease, stroke, lung cancer and other deadly diseases by the turn of the century, increasing thousands of people’s quality of life and reducing pressures on our NHS. Thanks to the collaborative work we have undertaken with the devolved Administrations, we have produced a Bill that will save lives right across the United Kingdom. I therefore commend these clauses to the Committee.

[Preet Kaur Gill (Birmingham, Edgbaston) (Lab/Co-op)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairship, Dame Siobhain, and to serve on this Bill Committee. I will start with some general remarks about the context of this legislation.

This is an important Bill. As we heard on Second Reading, there is vanishingly little opposition to the central point that nicotine addiction is a scourge on our society, and that it is right the Government take steps to reduce its harms. Nicotine addiction cuts lives short and worsens healthy life expectancy disproportionately among more deprived communities; the toll it takes on the economy, and in particular on our NHS, far outweighs any benefit the Exchequer receives in taxes.

Labour proposed a progressive increase in the age of sale for tobacco in January 2023, and the Minister can be reassured that we will continue to support this Bill. If Labour win the next election—if we are privileged enough to do so—we will implement it. It will be a pleasure to genuinely lead the world on tobacco control, given that tobacco kills an estimated 8 million people a year.

--- Later in debate ---

[Dame Andrea Leadsom]

The clause restates the ban on tobacco vending machines in England and Wales. This prohibition came into force in 2011 in England and 2012 in Wales through regulations made under the Children and Young Persons (Protection from Tobacco) Act 1991, which made it an offence for anyone who manages or controls premises to have a tobacco vending machine available for use. The offence applied to selling both tobacco products and herbal smoking products from a vending machine. Herbal smoking products were included due to their harmful nature when smoked.

The prohibition was originally introduced because tobacco vending machines were largely unsupervised and allowed under-age access to tobacco. In 2010, 8% of 11 to 15-year-olds who regularly smoked said that vending machines were a usual source of cigarettes. This policy has successfully reduced smoking rates among young people and has been effective at enabling the age of sale restrictions to be implemented and enforced properly.

The existing legislation has been restated to provide a coherent narrative in the Bill on tobacco measures and to assist with the tidying of the statute book. I therefore commend the clause to the Committee.

[Preet Kaur Gill]

We of course support the aims of this clause, which as the Minister said, effectively restates regulations that were introduced under the previous Labour Government, making the person who controls or is responsible for the management of premises where a vending machine is located liable to commit an offence if tobacco sales are made.

We are concerned about how easily children could access tobacco from vending machines, and the availability of tobacco from machines undermines efforts by adult smokers to quit. As the Minister said, when Labour introduced these regulations, evidence showed that vending machines were a usual source of cigarettes for 12% of young people aged 11 to 15 who were regular smokers. I venture that is 0% now, so the measure has been effective. Why has she decided to re-enact existing law on that matter through the Bill, given the existing regulations?

On a wider point, the purpose of those regulations was to stop children readily accessing tobacco products, but I note that the Bill contains no similar provisions on the availability of other vaping and nicotine products through vending machines. I would be surprised if her officials had not looked at this issue, but there is no mention of vending machines in the entire 164-page impact assessment, despite reports of new vending machines being introduced in England that include an automated age-verification feature.

I am keen to hear the Minister’s thinking on that point. Could vending machines undermine other regulations in the Bill that are providing powers to regulate vape and nicotine product points of sale and displays, as well as reinforcing and closing the loopholes on the age of sale?

--- Later in debate ---

[Dame Andrea Leadsom]

Clauses 4 and 38 restate that it is an offence if tobacco retailers do not sell cigarettes in the packaging in which they are supplied. Selling unpackaged cigarettes is currently an offence in England, Wales and Scotland under the Children and Young Persons (Protection from Tobacco) Act 1991. The prohibition was originally introduced to reduce smoking among children, because there was evidence that children were purchasing single cigarettes. As with clause 3, we have included these provisions to help to tidy up the legislation related to the age of sale for tobacco products, so that it is clear for tobacco retailers, enforcement agencies and other relevant parties across the UK.

The clauses ensure that the sale of loose cigarettes continues to be prohibited and that cigarettes are sold in the appropriate packaging. Additionally, clause 38 inserts the definition of “retail packaging”, aligning with the definition used in England and Wales. I commend the clauses to the Committee.

[Preet Kaur Gill]

Clause 4 is another that re-enacts existing law that we support. The sale of unpackaged cigarettes is a practice used to short-circuit the enforcement of age of sale law and other regulations such as flavour bans, and only benefits the illicit trade.

Particularly now that the Government have introduced the track and trace system, packaging is useful in monitoring the flow and patterns in the trade in tobacco products around the country. However, it is notable that the clause opts to restate the law’s focus on cigarettes instead of other products. In 1991, the Government faced a lot of opposition from Members on their Back Benches when they proposed to include cigars in the definition, so can the Minister tell us why she has not considered extending the provisions and treating other tobacco products in the same way? Can she reassure me that trading standards has not found instances of, for example, cigars or hand-rolling tobacco being kept and sold unpackaged, and that that does not have the potential to be a loophole that will later need to be closed?

--- Later in debate ---

[Dame Andrea Leadsom]

Clauses 5 and 6 introduce a requirement for age of sale notices in England and Wales to align with the new age of sale for tobacco products. Additionally, clause 42 provides Scottish Ministers and clause 50 provides the Department of Health in Northern Ireland with the powers to make provisions about warning statements. Warning statements are notices that reflect the new age of sale requirements. Age of sale notices currently must state in a prominent position:

“It is illegal to sell tobacco products to anyone under the age of 18”.

Clauses 5 and 6 update the wording of the notices so that they now reflect the requirements of the new age of sale. They will therefore state:

“It is illegal to sell tobacco products to anyone born on or after 1 January 2009”,

alongside the Welsh translation of the statement in Wales.

Additionally, under clauses 5 and 6, the Secretary of State and Welsh Ministers have been granted powers to introduce further requirements on the size or appearance of the notice. This allows for colour requirements and other changes to be introduced in the future should they be needed. Clauses 42 and 50 provide Scottish Ministers and the Department of Health in Northern Ireland with the same powers to set requirements.

Similar powers on the appearance of the age of sale notices have previously been included in legislation and regulations have been made, but these powers broaden the scope of the provisions. We do not anticipate requiring further amendments beyond the text of the age of sale notices prior to the change in the age of sale.

The updated wording on age of sale notices will support tobacco retailers in implementing the new age of sale restrictions by helping to clarify and underline it for customers and staff. I therefore commend the clauses to the Committee.

[Preet Kaur Gill]

I support the clause. For consistency and public acceptability, it is important that there is clear and consistent messaging to help the public understand the changes. It is already a requirement for premises to display notices to sell tobacco to under-18s, so I cannot see there being any issue in the implementation of the clause. Indeed, it is in the interests of retailers to have standardised notices across shops as we know that asking for ID is an issue that can cause customers to give shop workers grief at the till. When someone can say, “I am sorry, but it is the law and I could be fined or even have my ability to sell these products taken away,” that will greatly aid them in their job.

When customers can see that there is consistency across all retailers and that there is not the scope to twist anyone’s arm or get the impression that the issue is not taken seriously, we will see more people follow the rules. As we would expect, the responses to questions in the consultation were overwhelmingly supportive, with opposition mainly limited to arguments against the progressive rise in the age of sale.

Will the Minister comment on the consideration she has given to other forms of words, some of which she mentioned? Should the wording of the notice be limited to the focus on the age of sale and not, for example, proxy sales? Although one is the responsibility of the retailer and the other of the customer, would it not reinforce the understanding of the law and make people think twice about committing that offence? Will she set out the Government’s thinking on that? However, I support the clause.

[Dame Andrea Leadsom]

The hon. Lady makes a fair point. The clarity of the single message is, on balance, considered to be more important. If it is absolutely clear that products may not be sold to anyone who meets the 1 January 2009 criterion, that clarity and simplicity makes the message more punchy.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 5 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 6 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 7

Sale of vaping products to under 18s

Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.

--- Later in debate ---

[Dame Andrea Leadsom]

Before I speak to the clauses, I want to set out, for the purposes of clarity, what we mean when we refer to vapes. Different terminology is used in law, depending on whether we are referring to legislation for England and Wales, for Scotland or for Northern Ireland. However, although there may be minor differences in terminology, the products are the same. When referring to vapes, e-cigarettes or nicotine vapour products, I will use the generic term “vapes” throughout.

Vaping is never recommended for children. It risks addiction and unknown long-term health impacts while their lungs and brains are still developing. These clauses are important to ensure that vaping products and nicotine products cannot easily be accessed by children.

Clause 7 will mean that it continues to be an offence to sell a nicotine vape to a person under the age of 18 in England and Wales, and anyone found guilty of the offence will be liable to pay a fine of up to £2,500 if convicted. The clause will also extend that age of sale restriction to non-nicotine vapes, as we know that children are accessing those products. The provision on non-nicotine vapes will come into force in both England and Wales six months after the Bill receives Royal Assent, to allow retailers time to introduce the measure. The clause provides businesses with certainty about whom they may legally sell products to, and reinforces our health advice that children should never vape.

Clause 8 will mean that it continues to be an offence for a person aged 18 or over to buy, or attempt to buy, a nicotine vape on behalf of a person under the age of 18. The clause will also extend those restrictions to non-nicotine vapes. Non-nicotine vapes may be used as a gateway for children to start using nicotine vapes, which is why the clause extends the scope of the current restrictions to include non-nicotine vaping products.

Clause 9 will close an existing loophole and make it an offence to give away a vaping product, or a coupon that can later be redeemed for a vaping product, to someone under the age of 18 in England and Wales. Given the clear and unambiguous health advice that children should not vape, and the fact that under-18s cannot legally be sold a nicotine vape, it is completely unacceptable that the industry is not prohibited from giving free samples of vapes to children. That loophole needs to be closed to ensure that we can protect children from addiction and potential health harms.

Clause 44 will amend Scottish legislation to extend existing regulation-making powers to prohibit or restrict the free distribution and nominal pricing of vapes to cover nicotine products such as nicotine pouches. Regulation-making powers on the sale of nicotine products to under-18s, on proxy purchasing and on free distribution to under-18s are provided for England and Wales in clause 10 and will be discussed separately.

Similarly, clause 51 will give the Department of Health in Northern Ireland regulation-making powers to prohibit the sale of non-nicotine vaping products to persons under 18. That will align with measures in the Bill for England and Wales and with measures already in place in Scotland for this offence. To ensure alignment across the UK, clause 53 will provide the Department of Health in Northern Ireland with regulation-making powers to prohibit the free distribution of nicotine products and non-nicotine vaping products to those under the age of 18. I commend clauses 7 to 9, 44, 51 and 53 to the Committee.

Government amendment 25 to clause 53 was tabled at the request of the Health Minister in the Northern Ireland Executive. It will change the mode of trial and maximum penalty for an offence of free distribution of nicotine products or non-nicotine vaping products in Northern Ireland, removing the potential for anyone convicted of the offence to be imprisoned. Instead, on conviction, the penalty will be a fine not exceeding level 5 on the standard scale in Northern Ireland. That small change will align the penalty that could be imposed with the penalty for the age of sale offence for vapes in Northern Ireland. I am sure that the Committee will agree that that is a more proportionate penalty for the offence. For those reasons, the UK Government accept the amendment.

[Preet Kaur Gill]

First, I want to make some general points about these first vaping-related clauses of the Bill. We agree fundamentally with the Government in their efforts to find a balance by phasing out tobacco use and cracking down on youth vaping while being careful not to undermine the proven success of vaping as a stop-smoking aid. There is no doubt, however, that the rise in youth vaping is a serious concern.

My main question about the Government’s response is “What took them so long?” Labour proposed measures more than two years ago to stop vapes being branded and marketed to appeal to children, but that was blocked by the Government. I am glad that the Government have listened to us. I hope that they will continue to do so as we debate the Bill; I firmly believe that some of its provisions can still be strengthened.

I am pleased by the inclusion of clause 7. Coupled with clause 34, which defines a vaping product in a way that includes non-nicotine vapes, it will tackle a substantial loophole that we have been calling on the Government to close for a long time. Youth vaping is a serious and growing issue. In 2021, Labour voted for an amendment to the Health and Care Bill to crack down on the marketing of vapes to children. Since then, according to the most recent survey by Action on Smoking and Health, the number of children aged 11 to 17 who are vaping regularly has more than trebled. That is more than 140,000 British children. Meanwhile, one in five children have now tried vaping. In clause 7, a couple of issues therefore intertwine.

I think most people would be surprised to learn that it is legal to sell non-nicotine vapes to children, which could so obviously be designed as a gateway to addiction to the real thing, as the Minister mentioned. It is doubly concerning when we think about the illicit vapes that end up on British shelves. Testing by Inter Scientific, from which we heard last week, has found that a considerable percentage of seized vaping products that it tested contained nicotine, even when they were marketed as 0%.

That is highly concerning. It means that for the past several years, we may have seen a spate of accidental addictions among children. According to survey data from ASH, 9.5% of vapers aged 11 to 17 exclusively puff on so-called 0% nicotine vapes. Analysis of that and of data from the Office for National Statistics suggests that at least 40,000 child vapers could have been exposed to nicotine-containing vapes without their consent, becoming accidentally addicted by illegal products masquerading as nicotine-free that, under existing regulations, they are allowed to buy. That is an important testament to why not just regulation, but effective enforcement— especially over the illicit market—is vital to the success of the Bill.

The two-tier system of regulation for nicotine and non-nicotine vapes is not robust. The exclusion of non-nicotine vapes from the Tobacco and Related Products Regulations 2016 is important for a few reasons. Primarily, it is confusing and more difficult to enforce the rules on the ground if it is not clear which products contain nicotine and which do not. As 0% nicotine vapes are out of the scope of the current regulations, they do not need to be notified through the Medicines and Healthcare products Regulatory Agency process, on which trading standards officers often rely to identify illicit products. I raised that point with the Minister in a debate in January and am keen to seek clarity. Does the Minister think that all producers should have to notify vape products, regardless of nicotine content, to the MHRA?

I note that clause 71 provides the power to extend the notification process to non-nicotine vapes, but the Government have not, to my knowledge, explicitly expressed a view on the matter. Will the Minister do so now? In theory, including non-nicotine vapes in the notification process should allow for a complete database of products. Currently, it is difficult to identify which products are legal or illegal, which really undermines enforcement action.

As we heard in evidence, the impact of vaping products on the developing bodies of children has the potential to be very harmful. It is vital that we take every step to make sure that our systems of regulation and enforcement are as robust as possible to stop a new generation of products hooking our children on nicotine and harming their long-term health. We absolutely support the clause, and I am keen to hear the Government’s view on the issues that I have raised.

I have no substantial comments to make about clause 8. It is a common-sense reapplication of the principles of clause 2, which we have debated and which I support.

Clause 9 will finally address a loophole that I regret to say the Opposition raised in an amendment to the Health and Care Bill in 2021; I am glad that it is now receiving the Government’s attention. Our 2021 amendment would have prohibited the free distribution or sale of any consumer nicotine product to anyone under 18, while allowing the sale or distribution of nicotine replacement therapy licensed for use by under-18s. The then Minister rejected the amendment. To quote my hon. Friend the Member for City of Durham:

“There was no evidence of a serious problem, but the Minister sympathised with the argument for preventive action.”—[Official Report, 22 November 2021; Vol. 704, c. 56.]

Two and a half years later, it is clear what a widespread issue this has become. It goes without saying that Opposition support clause 9, which will close the loophole, as well as clause 44, which will introduce powers for the Scottish Government to extend the existing powers to regulate the free distribution of vapes and other nicotine products such as pouches, as mentioned by the Minister. Likewise, clause 51 will mean that age of sale restrictions can be extended to non-nicotine vaping products.

Finally, clause 53 relates to the free distribution of vapes and nicotine products in Northern Ireland, whether or not they contain nicotine. As I have discussed, I am very concerned that that has presented a loophole that has undermined enforcement, so I support a consistent approach across the United Kingdom. May I ask the Minister to set out what the words “in the course of business” will mean in practice when it comes to the free distribution of harmful products, given that we would expect any person caught out by the provision to argue that there is no “business” in giving away something for free? Of course, we know that that is not true in the case of addictive products, but I will be grateful if the Minister can reassure me that the clause will do in practice what it needs to do. Can she also please reassure me that it will not prohibit under-18s from accessing nicotine replacement therapies?

I reiterate that the Opposition support these clauses, but I am very interested in the Minister’s views on how the Bill should affect the notification process for vapes.

--- Later in debate ---

[Dame Andrea Leadsom]

My hon. Friend raises an important point. The legislation covers non-nicotine vapes, and unfortunately, as has been pointed out, a number of illicit so-called non-nicotine vapes have up to 30% nicotine content, which has completely undermined the argument for those. Quite clearly, they are designed by the industry to get people hooked on the idea of vaping so that it can get people on to higher nicotine levels in due course. That is why the legislation covers non-nicotine vapes and all tobacco and vaping products.

[Preet Kaur Gill]

What more can the Minister do about the growing illicit market in vapes? The MHRA’s evidence was interesting; it said that a lot of what is in the notification process is considered illicit, but the Minister did not have the figures and she was going to provide those to us. There is an issue there in terms of triangulation and what trading standards has found to be illicit and not compliant with the notification process. At the moment, the MHRA does not have the powers to withdraw those products; it is down to the provider themselves to remove them from the notification process and then to become compliant and to reapply again. That does not seem to be the right approach, because the manufacturers are marking their own homework in terms of what they are notifying. The Minister also recognised that what might have been notified and what actually comes into the country are very different. There has to be a better way of ensuring that we grip the illicit vapes market—hence the requirement for the notification process to include non-nicotine vapes that contain nicotine.

[Dame Andrea Leadsom]

The key point is that legal vaping products must be notified to the MHRA. If they are compliant, they go ahead. If they are not compliant, they go away and make themselves compliant. That is how the system works at the moment. With illicit vapes, it is an entirely different issue. I can point the hon. Lady to the evidence. When the age of smoking was raised from 16 to 18, the number of illicit cigarettes reduced significantly, so it is our expectation and hope that the same will be true with illicit vapes.

At the same time, as the hon. Lady will be aware, there was an announcement to impose an excise duty on vapes. A benefit of that, which she and I remarked on after the evidence sessions last week, is that we hope that that would enable His Majesty’s Revenue and Customs to enter the vape market into the track and trace that already exists for cigarettes and therefore to have much better control over what products come on to the market. I am sure we will talk further about that during the passage of the Bill.

[Preet Kaur Gill]

On that basis, does the Minister think that the MHRA should have the powers to test a percentage of products that come on to the market, given that we already know that what is being notified to it is non-compliant and given what is coming into the country? I appreciate her comments on the excise duty, but does she have a timescale for when we could see a track and trace system, as we have for tobacco, extended to vapes?

[Dame Andrea Leadsom]

As the hon. Lady will know, the MHRA is not an enforcement body; enforcement is for trading standards. As I mentioned earlier, there will be new resources for trading standards, as well as new training and guidelines. Also, fines will go direct to local authorities, which employ enforcement officers, so there will be a huge ramping-up of enforcement on illicit vapes, non-compliant vapes and so on. That is the place for enforcement.

On the MHRA and notification of other types of vapes, there will be powers, and the consultation will take place in due course.

Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Third sitting)

Debate between Preet Kaur Gill and Andrea Leadsom

Committee stage
Wednesday 1st May 2024 Public Bill Committees

[Preet Kaur Gill]

Q Finally from me, and this question is for Frank and Michael, the latest ONS figures in 2022 show smoking prevalence in Wales and Northern Ireland remaining constant rather than continuing to fall in the way that it did in England and Scotland. Do you think Wales and Northern Ireland have specific challenges related to smoking prevalence?

Sir Francis Atherton: It is certainly true that we are not going as fast in Wales as we would like to see. Smoking prevalence has dropped, from about 22% in 2020 down to 13% at present, but our target is to reach 5% by 2030, and we are not currently predicting that we will meet that target unless we go further and faster. We believe that this Bill will enable us to do that.

You asked for the reasons. One of the reasons is that we have deep-seated sociodemographic problems in Wales, which you have been referring to. Given the inequity that we see, meeting the needs of current smokers from those really deprived socioeconomic groups is really quite a challenge. We are doing everything we can in Wales to try to address that through “Help Me Quit” and smoking cessation support, but we really need to prevent the next generation from coming on board with smoking.

Professor Sir Michael McBride: Just following on from Sir Frank’s comments, you are absolutely correct that, while population prevalence of smoking sits at around 14% at the moment—behind the 12% in England and the 13% in Wales—we are doing slightly better than Scotland at the moment, which is sitting at about 15%. The figures for the Republic of Ireland are somewhere in the region of 18%. There is absolutely no doubt that we have the same socioeconomic drivers, in terms of social deprivation and health inequalities, that are fuelling this. Should the Bill succeed and pass into legislation, I see this as a once-in-a-generation opportunity to make a significant change to protect future generations and their children from all the harmful consequences of smoking tobacco and other forms of tobacco use.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health and Social Care (Dame Andrea Leadsom)]

Q I thank all you chief medical officers for being here; we appreciate it. You will understand that your witness evidence is crucial to easing the passage of the Bill. I would like to get you on the record talking, first, about the start of life. The shadow Minister has just asked about pregnancy and, only this week, I was talking to a neonatal nursing lead, who said of the pregnancies of women who smoke that the children had a low birth weight and go on to have severe learning difficulties throughout their lives. That is heartbreaking, but also has significant implications for NHS and educational services, and for whole-life costs to the taxpayer. I would be grateful for your comments on that.

At the other end of the age range, elderly people who have smoked all their lives end up with decades of ill health brought on by a lifetime of smoking. I would be grateful, too, if you talked about some of the health outcomes for those who have smoked all their lives—some of the horrors of that. Sir Chris, you told me an anecdote of when you were a young vascular surgeon. For the record, it is important to talk about some of the heartbreak for those who wish they could stop smoking.

Professor Sir Chris Whitty: I completely agree with all the points you made. Starting off with the beginning of life, there are clear and significant increases in stillbirths, premature births, birth abnormalities and long-term effects from smoking just in the pre-birth period. Then, of course, if parents are smoking around babies and small children, that affects lung development and, if children have asthma, that will trigger asthma effects. Young children are significantly affected by passive smoking from their parents. The parents, of course, want the best for their children, but the problem is that they are now addicted to a product that has taken their choice away. We get those problems right from the very beginning, and we have talked about some of the issues in young pregnancies and where that leads.

Moving to the other end of the age spectrum that you were talking about, the full horrors of smoking for most people start to take effect from middle age onwards. At this point, people get a range of things. Everyone knows about lung cancer, I think, and most people know about heart disease, but there are effects on stroke or increases in dementia, which are significant—one of the best ways to delay dementia is not to smoke or to stop smoking at an early stage. That is a huge problem for all of us. Smoking also exacerbates any problems people have with diabetes—it makes that much worse—and people have multiple cardiac events leading to heart failure. In heavy smokers, we see extraordinary effects, like people having to lose their limbs. As you and I discussed, it is a tragedy to be on a ward with people with chronic obstructive airways disease, or on a vascular ward as a vascular surgeon with someone who has just had an amputation, weeping as they light up another cigarette, because they cannot stop, because their choice has been removed. I cannot hammer that point home firmly enough: this is an industry built on removing choice from people and then killing them in a horrible way.

Sir Francis Atherton: Minister, you also pointed out the cost to the NHS. In Wales, we estimate that we have about 5,500 deaths every year from smoking-related diseases. If we look at admissions to hospital, about 28,000 in the over-35 group is about 5% of overall hospital admissions. That is an enormous burden to the NHS. On a more personal basis, in a former life I was a GP, and I remember sitting with an elderly gentleman who at the end of his life was suffering with chronic obstructive pulmonary disease. There is no worse death than not being able to breathe when just sitting there. I remember sitting with him as he was trying to talk to me and trying to express that same level of regret that Sir Chris talked about. If you talk to any smokers towards the end of their life, who are facing such terrible ends to their life, the sense of regret that you hear as a doctor is quite overpowering.

Professor Sir Michael McBride: It is estimated that in Northern Ireland there are more than 2,000 deaths each year directly attributable to smoking cigarettes; over the past five years, smoking makes up 12% of all deaths in Northern Ireland. Sir Frank and Sir Chris have clearly described the horrors of the impact that it has at an individual level, and as doctors we have all experienced that. We have all had those conversations with individuals who look back on a lifetime of regret.

On a more personal level, I also think at this moment about the impact that premature death, and the morbidity and mortality associated with smoking, has on families and children. My own father died at 46 years of age, when I was 16, from acute myocardial infarction as a consequence of a lifetime addiction to smoking cigarettes. So, we need to bear in mind the very human costs, family costs and wider societal costs as well. It is not just the cost to the health service, but the societal cost, the family cost and the cost to the wider economy.

Professor Sir Gregor Ian Smith: We should never forget the societal cost that Sir Michael just spoke about. I am the child of two smokers who died in their mid-60s from smoking-related disease. We see it all too often in Scotland. In fact, in Scotland we still have 9,000 deaths a year attributed to tobacco addiction and smoking. That is one death every 61 minutes that families suffer across Scotland as a consequence of addiction to smoking.

As a clinician, one of the diseases that I had become quite specialised in treating and led a lot of work on is chronic obstructive pulmonary disease. That is a smoking-related disease that people develop, often at too young an age, and begins to really impair their ability to participate fully in life—not only in employment, but in the pastimes that they love. Gradually, over time, it becomes worse.

Sir Frank touched on the sense of regret that people have that they ever started smoking in the first place and find themselves in this position. Beyond that, there is an even sadder element: many of the people who experience these chronic life-limiting illnesses have not only regret that they ever started, but guilt about the burden that they place on the health service and their family because of the illness and disability that they develop. That guilt sometimes reaches to the extent that they do not seek full care. Many people’s attitude is, “I deserve this. I started smoking; I need to pay the consequences.” That is a terrible psychological position for any person to find themselves in. Removing the starting point for that addiction, so that people will not experience that through their life, is the aim of the Bill.

Let me make one last point. We talk about the health impacts of all this. The Scottish burden of disease study projects that over the next 20 years, up until 2043, we will see a 21% increase in the general burden of disease across our population in Scotland, despite having a falling population during that time. Much of that projected burden of disease is smoking related; it relates to cancers, cardiovascular disease and neurological conditions such as dementia, which are all influenced by smoking. It is absolutely necessary for us to address this in a preventive way, and I believe that the Bill is a very good way of doing that.

Professor Sir Chris Whitty: I want to reinforce the point that Sir Gregor just made, with which I am sure the Committee fully agrees, that individual smokers should never be blamed for the situation they are in. An incredibly wealthy, very sophisticated marketing industry deliberately addicted them to something, at the earliest age it could get away with it, and they have had their choice removed. It is important that people do not feel guilt and come forward for care, and that no one blames them for a situation that was deliberately put on them by industry marketing.

--- Later in debate ---

[Preet Kaur Gill]

Q We should all be concerned about the increase in the use of vapes by young children, so it is important that the Bill will ban the sale of vapes to under-18s. It will also close the loopholes for under-16s, because we know that vapes are being marketed and given out for free. That is the issue we must address. My concern with the Office for Health Improvement and Disparities being disbanded is on public health messaging. Parents and families are really concerned that some of their children are going through a number of these vapes per day or per week, and they do not know what is a safe amount.

There is a growing illicit vape market, but how would parents know what is illicit or what the Medicines and Healthcare products Regulatory Agency has notified as being compliant? Where is the public health messaging to support schools? We heard really good evidence yesterday from the union. This is my concern: where can people access support and information? We already have a generation of kids addicted to vapes that are marketed as having 0% nicotine, but we know that there is nicotine contained in them. What would you say to that?

Sir Francis Atherton: There is some messaging going on through the various Governments. In Wales we have a “No Ifs. No Butts.” programme, which tries to work at an individual level, to alert people to the dangers that we have been discussing, and with wider society, about the dangers and links between illicit tobacco and illicit vaping and organised crime. Bringing that awareness to the population is really important for those two reasons.

We work with trading standards to try to tackle the issue of illicit tobacco and vapes. It is important that we continue that. My understanding is that wherever we have been successful in reducing demand, which the Bill intends to do, the illicit supply also decreases. We would expect that to be a consequence of the Bill.

Professor Sir Chris Whitty: One of the many talking points of the cigarette industry is, “Well, any kind of downward pressure on cigarettes would lead to an increase in the illicit market.” All the evidence shows that the reverse happens. When you bring in reduced demand, the illicit market decreases.

[Dame Andrea Leadsom]

Q I think we might be out of time, but I have one more question. In the passage of the Bill, there is a concern that some may wish to fix flavours on the face of the Bill, rather than allow the powers. Sir Chris, can we have a comment on the record on how damaging that would be?

Professor Sir Chris Whitty: That would be very damaging, because we know that this is one of the most innovative marketing industries in the world. That is how they have managed to sell to people something that will addict them and then kill them. If we give them room for manoeuvre by nailing things down, they will find a way around it, because they always have found a way around regulations. I am absolutely supportive of the comment you have just made.

--- Later in debate ---

[Preet Kaur Gill]

Q Would you like to say anything about admissions of young people in relation to smoking?

Professor Sir Stephen Powis: I will make a few broad comments on smoking, if I can. Seventy-eight years ago, Parliament passed the National Health Service Act 1946, which led to the formation of the NHS on 5 July 1948. In my view, the legislation that you are considering here today is one of the most important—possibly the most important—pieces of legislation since the passage of that Act. Why? Smoking has an extraordinary impact upon the health of the nation, and of course directly upon the NHS.

To put that into a bit more context—you have heard some of this already, but maybe I will provide some more detail—smoking is associated with, or causes, over 100 individual conditions that are managed and treated within the NHS. It impacts the NHS at all levels: almost every minute of every day there is a hospital admission related to smoking; there are over 100 GP appointments every hour for smoking-related disease; and 400,000 admissions a year are related to or associated with smoking. You have heard the chief medical officers briefly talk about the impact on specific diseases. Lung cancer is the one that everyone knows about, and 80% of lung cancers are caused by smoking. This Bill has the opportunity to transform lung cancer from a common disease into a relatively rare disease, and one that clinicians of the future will not see in any way as commonly as clinicians of my generation.

It is not about just lung cancer; you have heard about the impact on cardiovascular disease, and clearly, chronic obstructive pulmonary disease would again become a rare disease for the clinicians and the patients of the future. This Bill can also have an early impact on diseases that affect young people. Asthma is a disease not caused by smoking but a condition exacerbated by it. We see such admissions particularly over the months when asthma is worse and when there are respiratory infections, which are no doubt exacerbated by smoking.

In mental health, smoking doubles the risk of developing depression. More than one in two people with severe mental health conditions smoke, and the life expectancy of those with mental health conditions is reduced because of smoking. Mental health issues in our young people and children are well-known and well-described, and smoking simply exacerbates them. There is great potential, even in the early years, in the passage of this Bill for an impact on conditions that we see and manage in the NHS. Over the long term, that potential impact is extraordinary on those conditions, which number over 100.

You may know that I am a kidney doctor, but you may not know that smoking can impact on kidney disease. The kidney, like any organ, is supplied by blood vessels. When smoking impacts on the health of blood vessels and causes vascular disease, that can reduce the bloody supply to the kidney, which can cause kidney failure and lead to dialysis and transplantation. There is a large range of conditions that are impacted by smoking, and it will be extraordinary for those clinicians of the future not to have to do what we have done—tell patients and their families that people are going to die prematurely. That is an extraordinarily difficult thing for clinicians to do. Those are preventable diseases, and this Bill will prevent them.

[Dame Andrea Leadsom]

Q Thank you so much for being here today. As I said to the chief medical officers, you will appreciate that your words can be very helpful in smoothing the passage of this very important Bill. I would like to talk to Kate, please, about the impact of smoking on mothers who are pregnant. What is the impact on their babies, on the delivery of the baby, and on the baby’s health outcomes? If you could give us an outline, that would be very helpful.

Kate Brintworth: It is important to start with the fact that we know that smoking is the single biggest modifiable risk factor for pregnancy, and we know that every women who gets pregnant wants the best for her baby. As a midwife, I have never sat in front of a woman who does not want the absolute best for her baby. It is important to build on what Chris Whitty said around the removal of choice. Women will go to extraordinary lengths to protect their bodies and babies to ensure that their children have the best start in life, and yet the quit rates that we see in pregnant women are between 30% and 40%, showing how difficult it is for women to extricate themselves from the situation in which they find themselves.

The effects are devastating: stillbirths are increased by 47%; you are twice as likely to have a baby that has not grown properly; and you are 27% more likely to have a baby that is born pre-term. You are more likely to have complications of pregnancy, such as bleeding, the placenta not forming properly or the waters that surround the baby breaking earlier with the risk of infection, so there are immediate effects that we can see. If a baby is small, it goes into labour more vulnerable to the stresses of labour, so we can have more complications there. If a caesarean section is needed, the mother is more vulnerable to recovery and it can be a much harder road to recovery for her, with the risk of infection and blood clots, but also for the baby. If the baby is born early, obviously the risk then is that the baby and mother are separated and you have this unnecessary trauma to a family of a baby having to go into a neonatal unit. The risks that come from prematurity are well-documented for children, for educational attainment and for their lung and health development, but when the children go home, they are more at risk of sudden infant death syndrome—up to three times more—in a smoking household.

There are then the long-term effects. We have already heard about asthma, chest infections and obesity. All those are heightened in children born into smoking households. You have a situation where children are at risk and women are at their most vulnerable when they are pregnant, and it really feels like it is our duty to support this Bill to protect the most vulnerable in our society, because there are the effects of having a child born with possible behavioural problems and malformations, which have been described. Those are really shocking events. I was talking to service users yesterday who have had children in the neonatal unit, and it is incredibly shocking when your pregnancy ends early and you are separated from your baby. There is a mental health impact on the family. There is also the point that this affects those coming from the most socioeconomically deprived backgrounds, for whom having any kind of health challenge makes it a much higher bar to fight.

--- Later in debate ---

[Preet Kaur Gill]

Q There seems to be an issue around what is contained in illicit vapes, which we know include things like lead, nickel and high levels of nicotine, versus other vapes that have gone through a notification process. Do you feel that the research on the impacts of illicit vapes is not there, or is it the impact of vapes that have gone through a compliant process?

Professor Hawthorne: There is probably very little research on either.

Professor Turner: If I could just bring a bit of clarity, it is well known that nicotine is bad for us. Sir Walter Raleigh brought it back with some potatoes, and we have known for hundreds of years that nicotine is an addictive drug. As I said previously, it will shorten your life expectancy by between 10 and 15 years. Because we know nicotine is in all nicotine-containing vapes, whether licit or illicit, it is harmful regardless of what the other components might be. It is likely that those other components add to the harm, but there is substantial and well-described harm from nicotine addiction to us as human beings.

[Dame Andrea Leadsom]

Q Thank you both so much for being here. As I said to the other medical professionals, your words today will be incredibly valuable in ensuring the smooth passage of the Bill. Professor Turner, could you explain to us what happens to a baby born addicted to nicotine in terms of the withdrawal symptoms and the impact on its health and development?

Professor Turner: There is not a lot of research on that. Certainly, we know that if you are in utero and your mother is smoking, you will get the harmful effects of nicotine. That is a very good question—I honestly do not know what the effects on the unborn child would be. Certainly, we know that children born to parents who are addicted to morphine or cocaine have learning difficulties. I have to be honest and say that I might have to get back to you on that one, but I can assure you that it is not good to be in utero and exposed to nicotine.

Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Second sitting)

Debate between Preet Kaur Gill and Andrea Leadsom

Committee stage
Tuesday 30th April 2024 Public Bill Committees

[Preet Kaur Gill]

Q In what circumstances do you envision that local enforcement would not be enough and the Secretary of State would need to use the powers to intervene granted to her by the Bill? That is in clause 64.

Cllr Fothergill: We fully support the local penalty notice being issued by the councils. We believe that that is the right way to go and that it will not clog the courts, but there is always the option to refer to the magistrates court if required. Our big concern is the size of the fine, which we believe needs to be reviewed: £100 or, if paid within 14 days, £50 is hardly a penalty. We argue that we need to have greater opportunity to fine those in contravention of the law. Then, we believe, there would be less and less need for the Secretary of State to be involved. The reason he or she would need to be involved is if we cannot contain it—because we cannot issue enough penalty notices to contain it locally.

Greg Fell: A similar issue would be multi-local authority enforcement scenarios. We know that organised crime networks are not linked to an individual area, so it stands to reason that there will be a need for enforcement that cuts across many authority areas, hence there is a need for networked trading standards. That might also include, possibly, the borders—stopping the imports of illegal vapes and tobacco.

Additionally, as Councillor Fothergill said, we are concerned about the size of the fine. Certainly I hear through DPH parochially, who talk to their trading standards and licensing teams, that when there is a much larger fine that may or may not be linked to the removal of an alcohol licence, that will make a retailer really sit up and think.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health and Social Care (Dame Andrea Leadsom)]

Q I appreciate you being here. Can you give me an idea of the LGA’s view of a licensing regime? That is not proposed in the Bill, but some people say that licensing would be a better alternative than the measures we are proposing here.

Cllr Fothergill: Certainly. Although we fully support the Bill, we think there could be one or two changes, which I have already referred to—we would like to see amendments—and there is the option of a licensing scheme, which we would support. If it was done on a similar basis to liquor licensing, we would be able to enforce that, because it would be backed by legislation. Of course, we would need to make sure that trading standards were fully funded for that. We would support that, if it was something that the Government brought forward.

Greg Fell: I cannot speak for the LGA’s position; ADPH does not have a formal view on licensing. I would broadly support it, but there is a danger that putting that into the mix delays getting the Bill through Parliament and turned into an Act, and getting the Bill through Parliament is arguably the most important thing.

I would broadly support that, but I come back to the complexity. Vapes are sold in hairdressers and beauty parlours and so on, so we would need to think it through. Arguably, if we are going to get into a licensing scheme, that should be for tobacco and nicotine-containing products, not just vapes; I would personally go to tobacco as well. Critically, the resourcing to make it work properly would need some very careful thought and consideration. All of that would need to be in the mix, but broadly I would support it, with those caveats.

--- Later in debate ---

[Preet Kaur Gill]

Q My first question to you is, what is the impact of tobacco smoking on public health? Secondly, do you think the Bill’s measures to prevent vaping products from being sold to children will be successful? That is essentially clauses 61 and 62.

Ailsa Rutter: Tobacco is devastating. It is devastating to every individual who dies way too young, and to the family who lose their loved one. In my region alone, just since the turn of the millennium, 120,000 of our loved ones have died from smoking. It is not an adult choice, but a childhood addiction. The vast majority of those smokers reach a point where they deeply regret having got hooked in childhood, not thinking that first puff on a cigarette would be so addictive. It is really important that we remember the 6.4 million remaining smokers in the UK and the fact that 350 18 to 24-year-olds will get hooked on lethal tobacco smoking today.

I would like the Committee to imagine that cigarettes did not exist. It is 2024, and here we are discussing a product that is designed to hook, kill, maim, and be completely addictive. This discussion today needs to be about the future world we want to strive for. We can talk a lot about how we will enforce it, which is very important, but for me this is about imagining that in 20 years’ time we have created an entire new generation protected from this uniquely lethal product. That is why in the north-east, all 12 local authorities, all 10 NHS trusts, our integrated care board—the biggest in the country—and our Association of Directors of Public Health have given whole-hearted, unanimous support to the “stopping the start” proposal on the age of sale of tobacco.

We absolutely recognise that smoking is much more harmful than vaping, but vaping is not risk-free. Vaping is playing a pivotal role in our region—with our higher levels of deprivation and addiction—to get people off lethal smoking, but that is not to say that we do not absolutely agree that much more needs to be done to reduce the appeal of vaping to young people. We wholeheartedly believe that we must address the inappropriate packaging that is too youth-friendly. Some of the in-store promotions are completely inappropriate, where children are really noticing it. We must ensure that we recognise that children are growing up within a family context; children do not live in isolation. There is also the importance in our region of sending clear, evidenced-based messaging. We can also see the positive impact on children’s health if we can get the parents and carers off lethal tobacco smoking and if we can reduce second-hand smoke harm. Really important as well is more money in people’s pockets, because cigarette smoking has such a negative effect on your income.

[Dame Andrea Leadsom]

Q Thank you so much for being here and for all you do in the north-east. It is fantastic.

As you will know, rates of smoking during pregnancy in the north-east are some of the highest in the country. Do you think this legislation will help to reduce those very high numbers? The rate is somewhere in the region of 14% in the north-east.

Ailsa Rutter: We have made really good progress in the north-east in reducing maternal smoking; that has come through very good collaboration between our local maternity services and our local authorities, as well as the fantastic leadership from key people in the local maternity and neonatal system, the LMNS, and the direction from directors of public health.

As with anything, there is not one magic solution; it is about taking comprehensive measures. The tobacco age of sale increase will undoubtedly have a really positive impact on reducing maternal smoking. It needs to be coupled with important things that we must continue to do as well, so we also welcome the increased investment for stop-smoking services.

We hugely welcome—thank you—the reinvestment in the evidence-based health harms campaigns. We are thrilled that nationally you are using our fantastic “smoking survivors” TV advert featuring Sue Mountain. The role of financial incentives is also really important; we know that they have a very strong evidence base. This will have a positive impact on maternal smoking.

--- Later in debate ---

[Preet Kaur Gill]

Q Finally from me, in your response to the Government’s “Creating a smokefree generation” consultation, you called for a fixed penalty notice of £200 and maybe the option of increasing that. Do you think that the fines and the monetary penalties in the Bill are appropriate?

Kate Pike: We really welcome the addition of a fixed penalty notice to our enforcement toolkit, but we absolutely want to have our own range of sanctions, which includes the opportunity to go to prosecution for persistent or egregious offenders. The fixed penalty notice can be a really quick solution, potentially against an individual salesperson, depending on the setting and the nature of the offending. I think that £100 can be quite a lot; £200 would be more. I think that is enough, given the opportunity in the Bill to increase it at a later stage if it is not working or having the impact that we want.

John Herriman: It is all relative at the end of the day. It needs to be tested first. To some illegitimate businesses, that will be seen just as a business cost. Whatever the amount is, we need to ensure that it is not seen as a business cost that can just be absorbed. It has to be a tangible deterrent: that is the key.

[Dame Andrea Leadsom]

Q It is great to see you—thanks for coming today. I think you are saying that at the moment the fine is set at the right level. It is a really important issue: by no means do we want it to appear to be a cost of doing business. Our previous witness was suggesting that for some shop workers it is a very significant sum and is quite problematic for them, so perhaps there should be training in the first instance.

We have sought to get the right balance, with a £100 fine that can be reduced to £50 if it is paid on the spot. For any of us, a day when we have to dish out £50 because we have done something wrong is a significant bad day. On the other hand, there is an escalation process to criminal prosecution. I am really keen that we get the balance right up front, notwithstanding that there will be powers to change it. Can I press you a bit further: is this or is this not the right place to start?

John Herriman: Can I make a broader point, and then maybe Kate can come in on the specifics? This is all about the market surveillance activity that allows you to understand what is happening on your local high streets and your ability to take enforcement action where necessary, whether that is a £100 fine or a prosecution. Fundamentally, that is the challenge at the moment. It is about the ability to have the right level of market surveillance and the right level of enforcement activity. I am sure it is a question that will come up. It is a challenge for trading standards at the moment, because over the past decade or so it has had significant cuts, in the region of 50%.

There are two halves to this question. First, is this the right legislation and are the amounts right? Secondly, legislation is only as good as the ability to enforce it. It feels as though the legislation is right—I will let Kate comment further on that—but the ability to enforce it is critical.

Kate Pike: Absolutely. Whenever we look at a new piece of regulation—as I think somebody mentioned earlier, we enforce more than 300 pieces of legislation across the spectrum—we ask, “Do we have the powers to enforce?” In the Tobacco and Vapes Bill, yes, we do. “Are there criminal penalties in there?” Yes, there are. The key things from our point of view—the building blocks—are there.

Across the spectrum, how many businesses sell tobacco? The impact assessment for the Bill says that there are something like 60,000 or 70,000 across the United Kingdom. On that spectrum, there are big businesses that know what they are doing and do not need a lot of support from us. There is a big chunk in the middle that might need a bit of support and guidance—they may make a mistake, but we can support them, help them and train them. Then there are a small amount at the other end that are the dodgy ones. We need to focus our enforcement efforts on them, because we will never be able to put one trading standards officer outside every business to be watching all the time.

Tobacco and Vapes Bill (First sitting)

Debate between Preet Kaur Gill and Andrea Leadsom

Committee stage
Tuesday 30th April 2024 Public Bill Committees

[Dame Andrea Leadsom]

Q I asked a specific question about children’s asthma and children’s heart damage. Could I urge our witnesses to respond to that question?

Dr Griffiths: Thank you, and apologies if we did not cover that as clearly as we could have. Obviously, there is no such thing as a safe cigarette, there is no safe number of cigarettes to smoke, and there is no safe age to start smoking at all. We would emphasise our concern for children starting to smoke, because the damage starts as soon as you start smoking. There is no safe number of cigarettes to smoke. Combined with that, the fact that nicotine is so addictive that it leads to most people—over two thirds of those who start—becoming long-term smokers, worries us enormously. In terms of both the risk and the damage of starting smoking, the number of people who start and the fact that they go on to adopt a lifelong smoking habit caused by nicotine is of deep concern to us.

Sarah Sleet: It is worth thinking about children’s wider environment. Children who live in households where the adults smoke are four times more likely to smoke themselves, and find it much harder to give up. Children are getting into a cycle of deprivation and damage to their long-term health right from the very beginning. For children, stopping smoking availability is going to be profoundly helpful for their future lives, their ability to contribute to the economy and their overall prospects. This Bill, which tackles the issue from childhood up, will be one of the most profoundly important health interventions that you can make.

[Preet Kaur Gill]

Q I think the Minister was referring to vapes and the evidence based around the impact on growing lungs and hearts. Is there anything you would like to say about that before we move on?

Dr Griffiths: As Deborah from ASH said, vapes are a fairly new product, so the research and evidence base, which we have in abundance for tobacco and smoking, is still forming for vaping. However, there are indications that it is not great for health. We are cautious and worried about the long-term implications. What we do know is that vaping can be an important cessation tool for those trying to quit smoking, and that many do want to quit, so we strongly encourage anything that stops smoking, but the people who are turning to vaping as an alternative to smoking for the first time is of deep concern to us. We do not understand the long-term health implications, but the addiction to nicotine deeply concerns us.

Sarah Sleet: We strongly agree. It is a very delicate balancing act between stopping the harm caused by smoking and looking to the long-term with regard to vaping. Quite clearly, smoking is far more damaging for adults and children. Anything that can steer people away from smoking will be healthier than continuing to smoke in the long run, but we do recognise that more attention and more research need to be put into vaping.

--- Later in debate ---

[Dame Andrea Leadsom]

I understand that, but why?

Dr Griffiths: Because it is a really clear path to make sure that we move to a situation where we have a generation that is prohibited from buying cigarettes, and who are disincentivised from doing so.

Sarah Sleet: We have heard today the evidence about just how harmful and destructive smoking is, particularly for people in more deprived areas. If we really want to tackle that, we need to remove smoking as a normalised, available, legal option going forward. This seems to me a very measured and thoughtful way of introducing a smoking ban that will take hold. It is very important for our children going forward.

[Preet Kaur Gill]

Q I want to ask about the information that is given to parents, especially if their children have never smoked but have taken up vaping. We know that a generation of children is becoming addicted to nicotine because products that have been classified as 0% nicotine do actually contain it. One of the parents that I spoke to asked, “Well, how many puffs are there in one vape? If my child has two or three of those in a day, what does that actually mean?” It is about the information on that sort of risk, and how we share that information with parents who are trying to address this issue with their children. Is there anything you want to say about that, and is there any research being done to look at that?

Dr Griffiths: I would observe that there is so much variation between products and how people are consuming them. I think it is quite difficult to give advice in a standard way, and that it is part of it being an emergent product and market. As we have discussed, there is no doubt that, with nicotine being so deeply addictive, it is an incredible worry that a child has a single puff on a vape, given the potency of nicotine and where we know it leads people, having seen that over generations with smoking.

I should perhaps take a moment to emphasise that we also really support the £70 million investment being allocated to public health campaigning and cessation services, as well as enforcement. You are right that we need to be really clear with the messaging of the Bill to encourage support from parents and others around children in particular. We really applaud the decision to put resourcing behind this as well. We know that effective public campaigning can be an incredibly powerful tool. We were really proud to run the “Give Up Before You Clog Up” fatty cigarette campaign way back 20 years ago, and we know even that campaign led to 14,000 smokers seeking to quit. We know public campaigning works, and it was a great thought to allocate that resource as part of this work—it will be needed.

Sarah Sleet: The variation in nicotine levels and the method of delivery, which affects the uptake of the nicotine, is undoubtedly very concerning in vapes. I am a mother of three adult children who all vape, and I am very concerned about how often they are doing that and what impact that is having. We must also remember that, from what we know at the moment, it would appear that smoking is far and away the most damaging activity, compared with vaping. There is a little bit of concern that we overemphasise the harms of vaping to the extent that people say, “Well, I might as well smoke then. I’ll do that instead.” We need to be very careful about how we have this conversation.

--- Later in debate ---

[Preet Kaur Gill]

Q Thank you, Chair, and I thank the witnesses for giving evidence today. First, is under-age smoking or vaping the bigger issue in schools today, and what is the impact on education, behaviour and so on? Secondly, will the measures in the Bill to restrict sales of vaping products to children under 18 work, in your opinion?

Matthew Shanks: It is an interesting question, whether vaping or smoking is more popular among children in schools. All I can say is that it has increased in the past three or four years. We see evidence of vaping; it is more difficult to catch children vaping, because of the size of the vapes, the fact that the smell is slightly different and does not set off smoke alarms in the same way, and so on. I think it is fair to say that smoking and vaping are still as popular as they were among younger children in certain areas, and vaping is being seen to be a safe alternative.

The marketing of vapes in different flavours and colours makes them akin to a progression from chewing gum for some families—with bubble gum flavours and so on. There is also anecdotal evidence of parents talking about, “If it’s grapefruit, it must be safe.” There is that evidence around it as well out there—because of the way in which vapes are marketed, and if you see them in shops, they seem safe and okay.

With behaviour, the size of vapes makes it very difficult to admonish children, because they can hide them very easily. They can look like mini hard drive sticks—I think that is deliberate targeting in how they are marketed, with the cleverness of it. Certainly in terms of behaviour, it is something else that we are dealing with, when we say to a child, a teenager, “You’ve been vaping”, but they say, “No, I haven’t”—there is nowhere for us then to go, which immediately sets up an issue.

The earlier question about toilets was interesting, because children tend to vape in toilets. It is easier for them to vape in toilets than it was for them to smoke in toilets. You just need to see people on public transport vaping—it is easy for it to dissipate and disappear quickly. So, yes, I would say that vaping is a real issue in schools for children.

Patrick Roach: I support fully what Matthew has just said. I do not think that it is an either/or; the reality is that smoking is a threat to children and young people, in terms of their health and wellbeing and their ability to participate and progress educationally, but so too is vaping.

The NASUWT, at the start of this academic year, published our own research into vaping in schools from the perspective of teachers and school leaders, and it very much reinforces what Matthew has just said, in that vaping is pretty much predominant as an activity taking place among secondary-aged pupils. But we are also seeing teachers reporting pupils vaping from as early as 10 years of age, so the primary phase is also impacted. Three quarters of teachers report a significant increase in the participation in vaping by pupils in their schools, so we are seeing an upward curve in respect of vaping activity within schools.

On the issues that have just been mentioned about the difficulty that schools have in detecting and controlling this kind of behaviour, the way in which vape products are available to pupils is that they are masquerading as hard drives, as highlighter sticks or as other things that it would be legitimate for a pupil to bring into school. This is not like a situation in which you catch a pupil with a packet of cigarettes and you confiscate it; first, you have to identify what on earth it is that that pupil has. At the end of the day, good order in schools is dependent upon there being trust and respectful relationships between teachers and students. You cannot go around every moment of every day asking pupils to turn out their pockets and then inspecting what is in them.

The reality is that we are seeing the impact of vaping not just on pupils’ health, because we are seeing pupils who are presenting as ill as a result of the overuse of vaping products—although, in fact, all of it is overuse—and therefore becoming ill in schools, but on educational participation, progression and achievement. When pupils are diving off into the toilets to vape, that interrupts teaching and learning. When pupils are late arriving at school, perhaps because they have been vaping en route, that impacts on pupils’ learning. We are also seeing bullying behaviours within schools because, quite often, vaping products are being informally circulated, exchanged or acquired. Therefore, it becomes another source of behavioural challenges for teachers and head teachers. So, from a teacher’s perspective, vaping is a serious issue within schools, and one that we are pleased that this Bill is seeking to address.

[Dame Andrea Leadsom]

Q Thank you so much for being here, and also particularly for the work that the NASUWT has done in terms of the impact on schools. Could you expand on that a bit further? I have done a couple of visits ahead of this Bill. I met enforcement officers, for example, who gave me anecdotal evidence that teachers say that pupils will return to the classroom with their eyes spinning and unable to concentrate because of the heady nature of whatever it is they have just been vaping or smoking. There was another anecdote about a school where children decided to drink the vape fluid and the school actually had to have a sort of emergency evacuation as a result of that.

Could you therefore expand on that, in terms of the specific health impacts and, at the one end, the ability of children to concentrate on the class when they are spaced out on vapes, and, at the other end, the very real risk to children from doing something stupid with a vape that was entirely unintended, with disastrous consequences?

Patrick Roach: I very much appreciate your remarks about the research that the NASUWT has undertaken. We come at the problem of vaping from the point of view of our members in classrooms, in schools the length and breadth of the country. What do teachers need in order to be able to teach effectively and what do they believe that pupils need in order to learn effectively? They need good order in the classroom.

My perspective is not that of a medical practitioner or of someone wanting to assume that I have the knowledge about the impact of vaping on a child’s physical development. Our concern is the impact on a child’s educational development, participation and achievement. The reality is that everything you have mentioned there is absolutely right, whether it is about the way in which vaping products might be unintentionally used by pupils; or about how they seek to conceal them about their person; or, indeed, the drinking of vaping fluids, as if somehow that will get the high without necessarily being detected; or about the use of vaping products as a stimulant, which impacts not only on concentration but on behaviour and, indeed, on a child’s wellbeing in the classroom.

Matthew has already referenced the difficulty of detecting vapes sometimes, because they can dissipate very quickly; and they can also trigger fire alarms in schools. We have had plenty of examples of teachers and headteachers reporting that their school has had to evacuate the building not just on one or two occasions in a day but multiple times—five or six occasions. That is a loss of learning not just for one pupil or class of pupils but the entire school. We are really concerned about the impact of all that.

Teachers are not just concerned about a child’s educational development, though; they are also concerned about a child’s wellbeing in the round. Teachers are reporting the very damaging impact that vaping can have on a child’s mental and physical development, just as smoking can. That is one of the reasons we have spoken out—and we are pleased that the Government have responded—to say that we need to be doing more to strengthen the enforcement of rules around vaping, access to it and the availability for school-age pupils. We need to do as much as we possibly can to prevent any school-age pupil from getting access to vaping products, whether in or outside school. We are pleased that the Bill seeks to do just that.

Matthew Shanks: I absolutely echo and reinforce what Patrick has said. Also, as school leaders we are looking after teachers, but we are caring for families as well. The Bill will help families to understand that it is not okay for their children to vape. Anecdotally we have parents saying to us that they let children vape at home, because it is better than them smoking or being out on the streets; parents do not see the harm in it. It is really important that that is recognised. The banning of tobacco sale was interesting in terms of the prescription of it; I would posit that at the moment vaping is seen as safe by the general public.

--- Later in debate ---

[Preet Kaur Gill]

Q Welcome, Paul. It is good to have you here. My first question is simple and straightforward: what is Age UK’s view on the Bill?

My second question is this. I know that over-65s are much less likely to smoke. I have a constituent, Eric, who has suffered from a stroke and has suffered with chronic obstructive pulmonary disease and is now a tobacco campaigner in his 80s. Why is this Bill important to the people Age UK works with?

Paul Farmer: Age UK fully supports the proposed legislation, and we have been working alongside the Richmond Group of Charities to highlight the significant health benefits of phasing out smoking, which will help individuals and have a wider impact on society. It will have particular benefits for the NHS, which as we know faces significant challenges at the moment.

Our job at Age UK is to think about not just the health and wellbeing of older people as they are now—I will come to your second question in a moment—but issues affecting future generations of older people. This is quite a rare opportunity for us to have a significant impact on those future generations for reasons we will look at later.

It is worth noting, however, that this Bill is heavily supported by older people. Polling shows that 69% of over-65s support it. Why is that? That goes to your second question. We know from older people and the work we are currently doing that health and wellbeing in later life is pretty much the top priority for older people. Age UK has recently published our blueprint for older people for the next few years, as we enter an election year. It is very clear from the work we have done with older people that health and wellbeing is right at the heart of what is most important for people.

Of course, that is logical: the ability to feel well, remain active and maintain our independence is a major determinant of the quality of life that we aspire to in later life. We also know that there is a huge gulf in life expectancy and life experiences between those who have the opportunity to age well and those who do not. I will not go into the points your earlier witnesses made about the importance of healthy life expectancy in detail, but that is right at the heart of older people’s considerations. It is important that we do something about the fact that healthy life expectancy for those who are most disadvantaged is quite so stark.

How does that affect smoking? As you know, smoking is a leading cause of death and disability. It is responsible for half the difference in healthy life expectancy between the most and the least affluent communities. People living in the areas with the lowest healthy life expectancy are 1.7 times more likely to smoke than those living in the highest healthy life expectancy areas. These are fundamental reasons why the intervention of this legislation will make a difference.

[Dame Andrea Leadsom]

Q I really appreciate your being here—thank you. I would like to tackle the fact that young people tend not to consider either their own mortality or their health and wellbeing. The majority of young people tend to take those for granted, and yet there is a complete correlation: the age at which you take up smoking—or, indeed, vaping—is when you are young and feel pretty immortal, or are at least not concerned about later life.

Could you give us a view, as an Age UK representative, of the sort of advice that older people who have smoked all their lives and are now bearing the brunt of the decisions they took would give to those who argue, “It’s a matter of personal choice. Everyone should be free to smoke if they want”? What would an older person say to that young person?

Paul Farmer: I think a lot of people would say that they wish they had never started. Those are certainly the conversations we have been having with older people in preparation for this session. The reason for that is that, as you enter into your later life, you start to understand the consequences of smoking through your personal experience. The list is frightening.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Preet Kaur Gill and Andrea Leadsom

Tuesday 23rd April 2024 Commons Chamber

[Preet Kaur Gill (Birmingham, Edgbaston) (Lab/Co-op)]

At the last general election, the Government promised to deliver 6,000 more GPs by 2024-25, but there are still 2,000 fewer GPs than in 2015. Part of the problem is that morale has plummeted in the past decade, meaning that experienced family doctors and newly qualified GPs are hanging up their stethoscopes. What does the Minister say after scrapping two GP retention schemes last month? Will she come clean today about another broken manifesto promise?

[Dame Andrea Leadsom]

The hon. Lady is choosing numbers out of the air. She will be aware that there are almost 3,000 more GPs now than in 2019, and very importantly the long-term workforce plan is scheduled to introduce 6,000 new training places by 2031-32. In 2022, we had the greatest number ever of new trainee GPs. That is great news for GP practice, as they are crucial to primary care.

Pharmacy First

Debate between Preet Kaur Gill and Andrea Leadsom

Wednesday 31st January 2024 Commons Chamber

[Preet Kaur Gill (Birmingham, Edgbaston) (Lab/Co-op)]

I thank the Minister for advance sight of her statement.

Let me start by paying tribute to the many organisations that have been involved in preparing for this launch and the thousands of pharmacies across the country that have embraced this initiative. Labour has long been arguing that pharmacists should play a greater role in the NHS, so we support this move.

As the Minister has said, pharmacies already do far more than just dispense repeat prescriptions and sell shampoo: they are medicine experts within the NHS; they are highly trained; they are easily accessible right across the country; and, as we saw during the pandemic, they are a highly trusted part of their communities. But their skills and knowledge are often under-utilised. Therefore, bringing more services to British high streets for patients to get treated more quickly and conveniently is absolutely right. It is why, as we announced last week, we want to bring NHS out-patient appointments closer to people through high street opticians too.

The Minister is right to say that pharmacists can take pressure off GPs. However, let us be clear: this announcement will not make up for the 1,000 pharmacies which have been closed under the Conservatives, or the 2,000 GPs that have been cut since 2015. Patients today are waiting over a month to see a GP, if they can get an appointment at all. When Labour was last in office, people could get an appointment within 48 hours.

That is the thing with this Government: they give with one hand and take with the other. Will the Minister explain what has happened to the Government’s pledge to deliver 6,000 more GPs this year and what she is doing to support community pharmacies, which are already facing a perfect storm of inflationary pressures for running costs, recruitment challenges and an unstable medicines market?

The Government press release issued today claims that patients in England will be able to get treatment for seven common conditions at their high street pharmacy from today. I would like to dig down into whether that is actually the case. Healthwatch England has warned that it will take time for pharmacists to be trained in order to provide the services that Ministers have announced, so can the Minister tell us when she will be able to guarantee that the services advertised will actually be available?

Let me also ask about IT integration. To facilitate this roll-out, pharmacists were supposed to have access to GP Connect, so that details of patient consultations would automatically be sent to general practice through the clinical IT systems. The Government have had 12 months to get that ready, but from what I am hearing this morning it is still not live. Pharmacists are telling me that they can access only a summary of GP records, that they have to use another system to input what they have prescribed, and that they then have to download that and email it across to the GP. That is cumbersome. What estimate has the Minister made of the time that will be wasted at a local level to address that issue, and how long will it take before the system is ready?

Finally, what is the Government’s plan in the longer term to integrate the increase in independent prescribers who are being trained as part of the long-term workforce plan, and does the Minister agree with us that we should be accelerating the roll-out of independent prescribing to establish a community pharmacist prescribing service covering a broad range of common conditions? That would support patients with chronic conditions, which is the big challenge facing the NHS. Does the Minister agree that community pharmacies will have an important role to play in supporting GPs in the management of long-term conditions such as hypertension and asthma and in tackling the serious issue of over-prescribing, which is responsible for thousands of avoidable hospital admissions every year?

We agree that patients should be able to go to their local pharmacy to receive some services that they currently get at GP surgeries, such as vaccinations free of charge on the NHS, allowing patients to be seen faster and freeing up GPs to see more complex cases. By bringing healthcare into the community, patients will have greater control. The NHS should be as much a neighbourhood health service as a national health service, with healthcare on the doorstep, there when it is needed—and with Labour, it will be.

[Dame Andrea Leadsom]

Well, the very first appointment under Pharmacy First happened at 8.30 this morning.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Preet Kaur Gill and Andrea Leadsom

Tuesday 23rd January 2024 Commons Chamber

[Preet Kaur Gill (Birmingham, Edgbaston) (Lab/Co-op)]

I want to share with Ministers the experience of Emma from Grimsby, who said:

“NHS dentistry is a joke in the town at the moment. Thankfully I managed to get an emergency appointment in Scunthorpe (after being offered one in Doncaster originally) and I’ve now been referred to hospital to have 3 wisdom teeth removed. My dentist closed at the onset of the pandemic and I’ve not been able to register with an NHS dentist since.”

What does the Minister have to say to Emma and the millions like her who cannot get an appointment when they need one?

[Dame Andrea Leadsom]

The hon. Lady is absolutely right to point that out. Emma has my absolute sympathy and apology for the fact that since the covid pandemic we have not seen the recovery of dentistry that we would have liked. I can tell her that in July 2022 we brought in significant reforms to encourage dentists to take on more NHS patients, but we recognise the need to do more. The long-term workforce plan will increase training places and the overseas registration will improve capacity, as will the changes to dental therapists’ programmes. All those things will improve the situation, but in the meantime we will be bringing forward our recovery plan very soon, which will immediately expand the incentives to NHS dentists.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Preet Kaur Gill and Andrea Leadsom

Tuesday 21st January 2020 Commons Chamber

[Preet Kaur Gill (Birmingham, Edgbaston) (Lab/Co-op)]

1. What recent steps she has taken to increase business productivity in Birmingham.

[The Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (Andrea Leadsom)]

Birmingham’s productivity increased at twice the national rate last year, and I am meeting our great West Midlands Mayor, Andy Street, next month to talk about how we can achieve even more. We have one of the country’s most successful enterprise zones in Birmingham, where we are investing £433 million in local growth funds and increasing skills levels, employment opportunities and connectivity.

[Preet Kaur Gill]

Transport for West Midlands and the Open Data Institute found that between 2008 and 2018 congestion had led to 216,000 fewer people being within a 45-minute bus journey of the centre of Birmingham. Will the Secretary of State commit to properly resourcing new public transport infrastructure in Birmingham to enhance productivity and help the city’s almost 2 million people to realise their potential rather than wasting their time sitting in traffic?

[Andrea Leadsom]

The hon. Lady raises a really important point, and she will know that the Department for Transport is looking closely at what more it can do to improve connectivity. I hope that she will be delighted, as I am, that the city centre and Curzon extension is creating 76,000 new jobs and contributing £4 billion to the economy each year, and that since 2010, according to the local enterprise partnership, there are 134,000 private sector jobs being created in the Greater Birmingham area.