Health and Care Bill (Second sitting)

Philippa Whitford Excerpts

Committee stage
Tuesday 7th September 2021 Public Bill Committees

[The Chair]

I will come to you in a second, Karin. I am just trying to balance it between the respective parties.

[Dr Philippa Whitford (Central Ayrshire) (SNP)]

Q Obviously, a lot of the detail will only be there when the regulations are laid, but there has been a lot of concern in England about the talk of data being provided in a pseudonymised form to commercial companies. Is this not a repeat of the care.data issue, which lost public trust? A lot in these clauses could apply to Scotland. We have real issues in Scotland, where we have a lot of data sharing and analysis, and suddenly this gives NHS Digital to demand data, whether for a registry or for something else. It is about the commercial side; I do not think patients have an issue with Public Health England, universities or whoever learning from their data. The public concern is about the idea of pseudonymised data ending up with commercial companies.

Simon Madden: I completely understand that. We have to be very clear about what we mean by “commercial companies”, because pharmaceutical companies that develop treatments and vaccines are also commercial companies.

[Dr Whitford]

Q But the public are not comfortable with that.

Simon Madden: I get that, but there is no doubt that, in order to improve treatments, we need to contribute to research in some way.

You are absolutely right. It goes back to my trust and transparency point. One of the things that we signalled in the data strategy particularly was a movement towards trusted research environments. That is crucial. In some ways, what we have announced on GP data for planning and research is an acceleration of that work. We have said that data will not be shipped around or disseminated; it will be accessed only within the confines of a secure, trusted research environment, with full transparency about who has access, who runs what queries, and so on. It will be held and will not be shared. That is the general direction of travel that we want to see, and that is why we set that out in the data strategy.

We do not have to make a choice now between enabling access to data, or sharing data, and protecting privacy. Technology has allowed us to create environments where it is perfectly possible for data to be accessed safely and securely, with strict safeguards, without privacy being compromised.

[Dr Whitford]

Q That is the public concern. My concern is that the data in Scotland lives within NHS Scotland. It is not under this Parliament or anything else, and yet there is no mention of Scottish Ministers being able to say, “We will share it in an anonymous form. We will be able to break that code if there is a safety issue on a medicines registry or if a piece of research needs to be traced back to a patient.” You can set filters within your trusted environment without handing over pseudonymised data to a commercial pharmaceutical company.

Simon Madden: Data will not be handed over in a trusted research environment; it is only accessed in one place.

[Dr Whitford]

Q But by whom? That is the public concern. They have no issue with a public body. They are anxious and it goes right back to care.data. The danger is that it will set back your whole digital agenda if you get hundreds of thousands of the public all opting to not take part.

Simon Madden: I completely understand. That is why I mentioned that it is incumbent on us to have not only the right safeguards in place but the right narrative and to engage with the public so that they understand what those safeguards are, how they operate and how they can opt out of the system. One of the things we have been looking at in developing the final version of the data strategy following the engagement is how we can do much more on public trust and transparency. It is not just about a one-off marketing campaign; it is about an ongoing public dialogue and involvement of the public in future policy considerations. Again, it goes back to that resetting point; I think this is a reset moment. Technology now allows us to go that bit further than we have ever been able to go before in terms of protecting privacy, but we have to be in a stronger position to explain that to the public and how it all works.

[Karin Smyth]

Q I hope that this is in scope, Mr McCabe. I have just come from the Chamber, where the Prime Minister is still on his feet. He talked about integrated care records, but I am not quite sure if we are discussing the same thing. This may not be news to you, Mr Madden, but could you clarify whether we are all talking about the same thing? I appreciate that you were not there to hear the Prime Minister, but is it your understanding that what we are hearing today about social care is the same as the conversation we have been having about integrated care records, personal care records and so on?

Simon Madden: Forgive me, but I will take full advantage of the fact that I was not there and have not seen the statement that the Prime Minister made. A feature of our plans set out in the data strategy—not so much in terms of the Bill itself—is for each integrated care system to have a basic shared care record, so that throughout their whole health and care journey a patient or citizen does not have to do simple things like repeat test results or repeat their prescriptions, and so that their care journey between health and social care, with provisions for safeguarding and safeguarding information, is seamless.

--- Later in debate ---

[Karin Smyth]

Q If I may, I will return to the permissiveness and place conversation. I agree with the Bill’s direction of travel around place. I do not like the word “permissiveness”, because we have essentially a local cartel of healthcare providers deciding on resources and their allocation, and that locks out local communities. I am a bit suspicious of the NHS being given permission to do as it sees fit. That is why I put forward the example about ear wax removal—because that matters to local people, as we all know; that is what some of these things come down to.

The Bill falls apart because of the governance arrangements and the accountability, which does not follow the logic of place-based commissioning. My solution for the Government, should they wish to take it, is something around a good governance commission, based on the previous appointments commission-type process. It would bring in skilled people, with clear role descriptions, clear skills and a degree of independence. It would have the trust of local people, and would bring these very powerful chief executives together with local leaders to explain why, in Bristol, you cannot have ear wax removal, or why you are closing certain provision and opening it in Derbyshire or wherever. Have you had an opportunity to look at my proposal for a good governance commission and locally accountable chairs—perhaps elected, or appointed? What do you think of that as a solution that would bring power and accountability closer to local people?

Saffron Cordery: The issue of accountability is absolutely fundamental. One of the things we have not talked about much in this sitting, and which is not talked about that much, is the presence of two bodies in the system. We have the ICB, but also this partnership body that brings together a number of wider partners—particularly local government—with democratic accountability, which I think is really important.

I am wary of adding too much into the structures in the Bill. I understand your perspective on permissiveness, and we need to make sure that there are checks and balances across the whole system, but I would be wary of adding in another structure alongside everything we have. One of the features of this legislation, as I have said throughout the process—we have met the Department of Health and Social Care and talked to their Bill team, who have been very open and helpful—is that it does not really streamline in the way that it thinks it might. It adds to existing structures and processes, rather than starting from a clean sheet of paper and building something that might be deemed to be a good enough model; we will never get to the perfect model.

Right now, what we do not need is a root-and-branch dismantling of NHS structures and something wholly new put in their place, but I think there has been a missed opportunity to look at where we could streamline more. On that basis, I think it is important not to add more in, and it is fundamentally important that we look at the different roles and structures that already exist. From a trust provider perspective, working both at place and within provider collaboratives, and looking at the governance of unitary boards with non-executives and in some places also with governors and members, we see that there is that element of engagement with the community that you perhaps do not see in other places. I do not think it speaks entirely to your cartel point, but it is a step along the way that is well established and well used in many places.

This is a thorny and tricky issue. Using existing structures of accountability will be really important, as well as using the new ones, but I would not want to see anything new added in there.

Matthew Taylor: I largely agree with that, but another point is that if there is a broad policy thrust in this legislation, it is away from a medical model of health towards one that focuses more on social determinants. In the best partnerships—we talk often about West Yorkshire and Harrogate, for example—there is an incredibly strong relationship between health service leaders and local authority leaders. That will be a critical factor in the success of the system. When I look at the best practice emerging in the integrated care systems on issues such as prevention and population health, I see leaders starting to talk about issues such as housing, employment and public space, recognising their importance to health. In one way, that is a progressive move, and one that will probably lead to a louder voice for a variety of local interests, if we understand health much more in these socially determined terms, rather than simply through the medical model.

We had a big announcement today about social care reform, and there is a set of issues that are not in this Bill—issues around health and social care integration, how it will work and how accountability will work. It remains to be seen how the Government address that question.

[Dr Whitford]

Q Matthew, you mentioned that the degree of local integration varies, and that it is impacted by things such as boundaries—particularly the relationship between NHS and local government boundaries in the shift to a wider view of wellbeing. How much of a problem is it that the number and the footprints of the ICSs are different from those of the proposed sustainability and transformation plans? Are people who were growing together suddenly finding that they are no longer working together, and that they will have to start working with someone else? Do you not see that as something that will hold things back?

Matthew Taylor: It is a challenge.

[Dr Whitford]

Q Is it a necessary challenge?

Matthew Taylor: Whenever Government are faced with issues of boundaries, there is no solution that will not upset a lot of people, and this of course has been a vexed issue. I go back to the need for local flexibility. I will not name particular systems, because I do not want to speak for them, but I am thinking of two systems. In one, there have been many years of integration and collaboration, and an enormous amount of collaborative work. There, boundaries are probably much less important than they were in the past. In the other, an ICS is being established that will oversee two places—a city and a county that do not have an enormous amount in common. There, the ICS will have to develop its own proposition about the value that it will add. It would be a mistake for that system to want to draw up an enormous amount of power from two places that are working pretty effectively and would not benefit a great deal from deep integration.

The pattern is different from place to place. That is why we need to allow things to evolve in the light of local circumstances. It is always difficult when boundaries are not coterminous or shift. All I can say is that health services are used to these kinds of challenges, and most who have reached the top have probably worked through at least one of these challenges in the past, and know how to go about it as best they can.

[Dr Whitford]

Q Obviously, the delivery will be different, but the aim will be the same. What mechanism do you see evolving to allow the sharing of good practice? The integration of health and social care has been going ahead for seven years in Scotland, and we know how difficult it is. It is exactly as you say: some areas have made amazing innovations, and others are struggling. In what forum do you see one place being able to learn from another’s experience?

Matthew Taylor: That is a fascinating question. My view, which goes back many years, is that you need the right combination of strategy from the centre and identification of the right thing to do, where there is clearly one best thing to do, although Whitehall has a slight tendency to exaggerate the number of areas in which there is one best thing to do. Then you need peer-to-peer, or horizontal, learning. Providers and the confederation do a lot of work with our members to share best practice. A week will not pass without one of us publishing something around good practice, and bringing our members together to share that. This is another reason why it is important to have local difference. It is in a system of local difference that you will get more innovation. As long as you have innovation coming through, really strong organisations spreading good practice and a centre that focuses on where it can add value, you have the capacity for a self-improving system.

[Dr Whitford]

But how do you—

[The Chair]

I am wondering if we should hear from our other witness.

[Dr Whitford]

I was going to ask Matthew all my questions, and then go to Saffron with them all.

[The Chair]

Well, you only have about two minutes.

Matthew Taylor: By the way, I think it is important for us to learn from Scotland. We have been having a conversation in the confederation about the importance of recognising that we have different health systems now across the UK, and that there is an opportunity here for good learning.

[Dr Whitford]

Saffron?

Saffron Cordery: In the interests of time, I will say that I do not have a huge amount to add. Peer learning, peer challenge and peer support are absolutely critical. Variation, in its broadest sense, is important, and you can call that innovation or whatever you want. How you respond to local circumstances is critical. That is why cookie-cutter mode does not really work. Going back to your point on boundaries, they are, of course, a vexed issue. I know from my time in local government how vexed an issue it is there. Any kind of local government reorganisation can tie you up for years and years. It is worth remembering that boundaries were challenging at the start of this process. A number of STPs, which were the forerunners to ICSs, had boundaries imposed on them, rather than choosing those boundaries.

There have been a few policy developments that perhaps have not been as widely discussed as they might have been, including the fact that coterminosity with local government, although not necessarily the wrong step, was brought in relatively late in the day and did lead to some of the later boundary changes, as we have seen. I am not saying that that is wrong, but it demonstrates the need for wider discussion, consultation and engagement with the NHS and local government system as a whole before the decisions are made to help understand how best to do it. Sometimes just saying that it must happen and decreeing that is not the best way of making something a smooth operation that gets the best out of local systems. On occasions, there is something in the process of policy-making that could be looked at.

[The Chair]

We had better move on.

--- Later in debate ---

[Dr Davies]

Q Mr Trenholm, you referred to the fact that the CQC will be assessing ICSs in future, which was a recommendation of the Health and Social Care Committee. You also referred to oversight of social care provision. Can you clarify whether that is by virtue of your assessment of the ICSs as a whole, or is it through a local authority-targeted assessment that the Health and Social Care Committee has also called for in an Ofsted-style rating?

Ian Trenholm: Can we not call it a CQC-style rating? There are two separate things. The Bill currently contains an explicit provision about providing assurance on how a local authority is discharging its responsibilities in relation to the Care Act. That is important because the way in which care is commissioned is as important for outcomes as the way in which it is delivered. That is one part and that is a discrete piece of work. There is a broader piece of work that we are expecting Government to ask us to bring forward on assurance on ICSs. It will look at the ICS partnership board, how that works, the ICS strategy and so forth. They are two complementary pieces of work, but they are separate, as you describe.

[Dr Whitford]

Q Mr Conradi, you have talked about this coming from Air Accidents Investigation Branch, where the safe space is very tightly protected. That is very much as has been put forward. The key concern is the fact that coroners are listed in the Bill. The ombudsman is already lobbying and many of us are being lobbied to get access to safe space testimony. The Campaign for Freedom of Information is also lobbying for that. Will that not just kill it dead, in that you can compel people to come and give you testimony, but you cannot compel them to talk about all the soft weaknesses within a system that contributed to that tragedy or failure? Should it not be that maybe we need to define more tightly what is protected? All these bodies should be able to investigate as they do now. They are not losing anything because you would have safe space.

Keith Conradi: I totally agree with you. I think it will have a major impact on people’s wish to speak to us. It is not just me that thinks that; the medical unions have said that their members are concerned. The whole idea is that you want people to talk about, as you say, the “soft” things. They tend to be things like the culture of an organisation and the pressures that are brought upon them to do various pieces of work. In the past that has been a bit of an Achilles heel in terms of safety in the NHS. People have often been blamed for these things. They have been disciplined for speaking out—we talked about whistleblowers earlier.

Anything that we can do to bring that information up to an investigation body, which is not about blame and liability, is going to help patient safety in the long run. They will find their way into our final reports—that is the whole idea of getting this information. We want to encourage that as much as possible. I do not think this helps. I think a previous Joint Committee looked at a similar piece of legislation, and that came to exactly the same conclusion. As you say, what is the problem with other bodies such as coroners conducting their own interviews to get the same piece of information or any information they require?

[Dr Whitford]

Q I was on the pre-legislative scrutiny Committee and we spent a lot of our time debating this. It can be very easy as MPs to say, “Everything should be available to everyone.” In actual fact, we need to learn rather than blame. Obviously you do not want it to be with coroners, but do you think there needs to be redefinition within the Bill to make it clear that it is only the testimony and documents that you are holding? You are not stopping anyone else getting medical records, calling witnesses and doing what they should be doing now. The Bill almost gives the impression that you will squash other investigations.

Keith Conradi: Yes. In a way, the powers are so sweeping that they go well beyond what we think we would need, and well beyond what is used in other sectors—the transport sectors. We know that parallel investigations will take place into many of the things that we look at, and that is fine. The problem is that if we have these sweeping powers, which pretty much say that anything we touch or come across we then have to protect, and that we can then unwind and release some of them with a fairly bureaucratic process, that will be difficult in terms of transparency and our ability to share the information with others who have a legitimate need. The key things that we absolutely want to protect are statements given to us by witnesses and any draft notes, opinions and reports that we generate from doing the investigation. It is the final report that is our piece of work that we want to produce at the end of the day, and that is it.

[Dr Whitford]

Thank you. In the interests of time, I am happy with that.

Ian Trenholm: If I could make just one point, I think you are absolutely right: the broader responsibilities of an individual provider, particularly around such things as duty of candour, would still stand. Therefore, at an institutional level, people will still need to do the things that they always needed to do, but there is a very specific set of circumstances that Keith was describing where safe space may apply.

[Justin Madders]

Q I have a couple of questions for Mr Trenholm. You mentioned the importance of co-operation with other agencies. At the moment, are there barriers that the Bill could help with in terms of identifying people who may provide inadequate care under the guise of a company and then dissolve it, move on and create another? Is there anything in the Bill that will help you to track those people?

Ian Trenholm: I do not think that there is at an individual provider level. What you have just described is our normal registration regulation process at an individual provider level. As we start to look across individual places and ICSs, we might be able to talk to individual partnership boards about people who are operating locally, but I do not think the Bill explicitly gives us more powers to look at individual providers in any more detail than we already would as part of our normal registration process.

--- Later in debate ---

[Dr Whitford]

Q Obviously the pandemic has highlighted the impact of health inequalities and social and economic inequalities across the UK. Tackling them would be critical to improving population health, but how do you think the local systems will manage to balance need versus demand? Often we have the loudest voices expressing demand and the people with the greatest need are either silent or simply not listened to, so how will these changes help to get their voices listened to?

Professor Maggie Rae: That is right at the heart of health inequalities. If we did not know that before covid, we certainly know it now. An area where we could strengthen the legislation is in having that responsibility for all the people in your population. I led on health inequalities in the only time we have narrowed the gap, so health inequalities are not something that are just there and that we cannot do anything about except talk and say how sympathetic we are to them. We can deliver these changes. If we get the legislation and the organisational functionality, we will not change this unless we engage with communities. That is absolutely right, and we must engage with the local authorities.

Unless we target every intervention that we apply to the most disadvantaged and ensure that they have a good opportunity for uptake, we are widening health inequalities. I could take you to any health intervention, whether it is the covid vaccine, the flu vaccine, any uptake on health programmes or cancer screenings. They are all skewed to the most affluent population. In our country we want general population services, because we need everyone to be healthier, but we have to try to ensure that these organisations understand population need and know where the deprived populations are.

I have never met an MP or councillor who did not know where their deprived populations were, so we need those organisations to know that, but just knowing it is not enough. You have to then see the pattern of services and service delivery change to give a better chance to the people who need to take up these services. We have all understood that it is not that those people are hard to reach; it is just that we do not run the services to suit them and get a better uptake. I would like to see us concentrate on that. We probably cannot mention every single intervention, but for me it would not be enough to concentrate on obesity and fluoridation and think that the job is done on health. We have higher drug deaths than the rest of Europe—Scotland, as you know, is probably one of the worst in the world, if not the worst—and alcohol and all the other issues there, but I believe we can make a difference, and it will not take us 25 years if we focus on the right things, having the right interventions and making them readily available for people, and have a nice balance with what the NHS can do.

The NHS is the greatest service in the world and it can really help with health inequalities, but it cannot do it all. I am not an either/or person; we need the wider determinants and everything we can do that is place based through the local authorities, but we need the NHS to do that too.

[Dr Whitford]

Q Councillor Jamieson, this talks about a shift, which we have seen some of the devolved nations also following, from treating illness to trying to promote wellbeing in a holistic sense. A lot of that, as we have already touched on in this session, falls under local government. There is no budgetary discussion in this, but how much will that be impacted by the ability of local government to tackle the poverty and deprivation that are among the biggest drivers of ill health? As you say, housing, active travel, pollution and so on are your brief, but we know that local governments have been on a very tight financial leash for quite a long time.

Cllr James Jamieson: This is where the legislation is helpful, because it is enabling. The more we can move away from the NHS pound, the local government pound, the health pound or the DEFRA pound, and towards, “This is the pound for Newcastle or Cornwall; how can we achieve the best outcome for it?”, the better. I know that is difficult and, as you say, things such as housing, getting someone into a job or promoting active travel can make a massive difference to people’s health. They can make big differences, and having that forum and the opportunity to have those discussions is very helpful. A forum where we can start moving from investment in, as you rightly say, curing someone to preventing them from getting ill or, as Maggie said earlier, getting early cancer diagnoses is critical.

This Bill does provide a framework, but the important stuff will be the statutory and non-statutory guidelines and where the money is spent. That is very important, and we hope to see more spending on preventing and less on fixing a problem that need not happen.

[Dr Whitford]

You mentioned there—

[The Chair]

I am really sorry, but we had better move on to Alex Norris.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Chair]

Thank you. Do either of you wish to add anything to that?

Eluned Morgan: Lyn or Mari, do you have anything to add?

Mari Williams: No, thank you.

[Dr Whitford]

Q Obviously, as a Scottish MP, I echo the same concerns from the Scottish Government about these areas. Although it is largely billed as legislation for England, quite a lot of clauses extend further, yet there is often no mention even of consultation, let alone of consent. Certainly, one matter than concerns me is medical information, so what consultation did the Welsh Government have? Unlike Scotland, Wales is mentioned in the extent of the Bill, so how early were the Welsh Government consulted when it was being put together before its launch at the end of July, which is pretty much when the Scottish Government got to see it?

Eluned Morgan: To be fair, my officials have had regular meetings with the Bill and policy teams, and I have met once with Minister Argar to discuss the Bill. However, I am afraid that that did not lead to our key concerns being addressed before the Bill’s introduction.

I concur with you that we were really disappointed at the lateness of the notification of this Bill, and the absence of engagement with the Welsh Government in terms of the practicalities of the outcomes of discussions. For example, we received sight of the White Paper statement on the Bill only on the afternoon before it was published. We had sight of all the Bill’s clauses only the day before introduction. With the best will in the world, we have some brilliant officials in the Welsh Government, but even they cannot work at that supersonic speed. We did not have the opportunity to look at all the final clauses and to respond to them before the Bill was introduced.

The point is that if the UK Government are serious about saying that we will be consulted, this is not a good model for them to show us that we have been consulted. Their stated aim was, “In your areas, where the power is rightly yours, you will be consulted.” If this is the model that they are going to use, we are in for a really tough time. That is why I would concur with you that the real issue is that we want consent on areas that are rightfully and constitutionally ours.

[Dr Whitford]

Q We obviously heard in the Prime Minister’s statement today talk about spending directly in health and social care despite its being devolved.

May I ask you a short, specific question? The healthcare services safety investigation body is England-only at the moment, but it is described that investigations could be requested in Welsh cases due to people coming over the border. Is that something that the Welsh Government are considering? At what level would such a decision be made? Would that be a local request, or would it go up through your central structures?

Eluned Morgan: Lyn or Mari may want to come in here. The key thing to remember—Dr James Davies will be aware of this—is that a huge amount of cross-border working happens between Wales and England, so it is important that we understand each system. I do not think that we would have an objection in principle to working in the way that you suggest, but where, for example, there is a body that is “England and Wales”, it is rightly written in our legislation that we cannot be told what to do. It is not about the policy itself. For example, if there is an auditing issue, we will not go to war or have a fight about how something is audited; it is the process that we are concerned with. It is not that we would object, but it is rightfully in our power to determine whether we want to do something.

[Dr Whitford]

Q And that would apply also to things like sharing patient information of a certain type, and whether it was anonymised or pseudo-anonymised and so on? That would be a concern for you?

Eluned Morgan: Absolutely, and we are developing our own systems in relation to those things, of course. It is our patient information, and we should be deciding who has access to it and when.

[Alex Norris]

Q I thank you, Minister, and your officials for your time this afternoon. You mentioned correspondence with Ministers in the UK Government. Is that correspondence publicly available, or is it something you are willing to make publicly available?

Eluned Morgan: I am more than happy to send the correspondence that I have sent to Minister Argar to the Committee, so you can see it. It sets out all the issues that we are concerned with in relation to the Bill.