Kashmir

Philip Hollobone Excerpts

Thursday 11th September 2014 Westminster Hall

[Mr Philip Hollobone (in the Chair)]

I welcome all Members to today’s extremely important debate on the political and humanitarian situation in Kashmir.

[Mr David Ward (Bradford East) (LD)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Hollobone.

It would be completely wrong to start this debate without reference to the recent devastating floods in Kashmir. Much of the area either side of the line of control has been devastated. The press reports that are coming in on an hourly basis paint a grim picture. We hear of substantial loss of life on both sides of the line of control. The press reports I have received recently discuss the loss of life and the 1 million people who are deprived of basic services, but then refer quite hopefully to the Prime Ministers of India and Pakistan offering at the weekend to help each other to deal with the disaster, which I am pleased to say temporarily diverted attention away from fighting along the border. Alas, that was not to be for long.

The latest we heard on Wednesday was that violence had again flared up on the line of control, with two dozen soldiers fighting militants even as flood rescue operations were under way elsewhere. Three militants were shot dead by Indian troops in Kashmir after a gun battle. Similarly, on the other side, we heard comments from a prominent Islamist in Pakistan who accused India of water terrorism. Can anyone believe that? He accused India of causing flooding across the border by discharging dam water downstream. In such a short space of time, we have seen the seriousness of the issue, as well as the despair that many, many people here and across the world must feel when they consider the conflict in Kashmir.

I want to give a little more detail. The latest information from the European Commission’s humanitarian office states that, in Pakistan-administered Kashmir, the flooding has caused 231 deaths—undoubtedly, there will have been more by now—injured 401 people and affected 580,000 people in 1,460 villages, with 5,400 houses partly damaged and 2,400 destroyed. In India, more than 200 people have been killed and 50,000 have been rescued with help from the Indian army. As I mentioned, more than 1 million people have been affected because the flooding has cut off basic services. In addition to the Minister’s response to today’s general debate on the long-standing conflict between India and Pakistan, will he comment on the Government response to the humanitarian crisis currently faced on both sides of the line of control?

I thank the hon. Members for Bury North (Mr Nuttall) and for Pendle (Andrew Stephenson) for supporting my application for this debate, and I thank the Backbench Business Committee for granting it. My hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Yardley (John Hemming) could not support my application because he is a member of that Committee, but I know that he supports the debate. I also thank the Jammu Kashmir Self Determination Movement (Europe) for supporting the debate, for supporting me and for galvanising support throughout the country, by helping to get many thousands of signatures on the petition that demanded a parliamentary debate.

I have spoken to a lot of groups and organisations— I will refer to some of them later in my speech—but I found the contribution from the Kashmir Development Foundation to be of real help and value, particularly in terms of the importance of the Indian, Pakistani and Kashmiri diasporas, both in this country and internationally, and the positive impact that they could have on the situation in Kashmir.

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[Several hon. Members]

rose—

[Mr Philip Hollobone (in the Chair)]

Order. This is clearly an important debate that has attracted a lot of interest. We have until 4.30 pm and 13 hon. Members wish to speak; my humble role is to try to make sure that you all speak. If the Front Benchers start their remarks just after 4 o’clock, that will give them 10 to 15 minutes each. If the 13 Members speak for eight minutes, with no extra time for interventions—you may take interventions, but no extra time will be added—you will all get in. That eight minutes is a maximum, not an optimum.

[Barry Gardiner (Brent North) (Lab)]

In exactly a week’s time, the people of Scotland will go to the polls in a referendum to decide the future of our country. The debate has been hotly contested and not without its ill temper; but imagine the outrage on both sides of that debate if the Indian Parliament, the Lok Sabha, were today debating the merits or demerits of Scottish independence and passing judgment upon what we in the United Kingdom see as a matter for us, and us alone, to decide.

The Simla agreement between Pakistan and India is actually quite specific upon this point: it requires the two countries to deal with Kashmir bilaterally and without the involvement or interference of any other state. India and Pakistan have both signed that agreement; it is therefore disingenuous for any politician here to claim that this is somehow a matter in which they have a legitimate role or voice.

Certainly, it is the role of all hon. Members to represent the concerns of their constituents. I do not doubt that or disparage the hon. Member for Bradford East (Mr Ward) for seeking to do so. But I believe that it is still the custom for every Member, on first entering this House, to be sent a copy of the speech of that great parliamentarian Edmund Burke, in which he speaks to the electors of Bristol in the following manner:

“it ought to be the happiness and glory of a representative to live in the strictest union, the closest correspondence and the most unreserved communication with his constituents. Their wishes ought to have great weight with him; their opinion high respect; their business unremitted attention… But his unbiased opinion, his mature judgment, his enlightened conscience, he ought not to sacrifice to you, to any man, or to any set of men living. These he does not derive from your pleasure, no, nor from the law and the constitution. They are a trust from Providence, for the abuse of which he is deeply answerable. Your representative owes you, not his industry only, but his judgment; and he betrays, instead of serving you, if he sacrifices it to your opinion.”

I would ask all hon. Members who contribute to this debate to have the humility to reflect upon and cast their judgment over the following salient fact. Earlier this year, the people of India conducted the largest exercise in democracy and expression of the public will that has ever been concluded in the history of humanity, when 550 million free Indians—7 million of them living in Jammu and Kashmir—voted in peaceful elections. Nobody was assassinated; nobody refused to leave office. The world witnessed an orderly transition of power, as one Prime Minister gave way to the democratic will and passed the levers of state to a new Prime Minister with a different political vision for his country.

In the last elections to the 89 seats in the Legislative Assembly of the state of Jammu and Kashmir, 61.23% of the electorate—a total of 6.479 million citizens— expressed their confidence in the democratic structures of the state of India by voting. They also expressed their faith that the choices they made would find proper expression through their elected representatives under the constitution of India. It is worth recalling that 74.9% of the population of Jammu and Kashmir is of the Muslim faith, because simple mathematics then gives the lie to those who would claim that this is not true for the overwhelming majority of Muslims in Jammu and Kashmir.

The fact is that millions of Muslims in Jammu and Kashmir will make their way to the polls later this year, just as they did in 2008, but there is a significant difference this year. In the general election earlier this year, three of the six Lok Sabah seats from Jammu and Kashmir were won not by the traditional parties of power, but by the Bharatiya Janata party, which actually took the largest share of the vote in Jammu and Kashmir despite having promised to scrap article 370, which gives Jammu and Kashmir special status under the Indian constitution. It won 32.4% of the popular vote ahead of the National Congress party, ahead of the Peoples Democratic party and ahead of the Jammu and Kashmir National Conference party, which finished on 11.1%.

The significance of those statistics cannot be lost on anyone with any understanding of Indian politics. The Bharatiya Janata party—the Hindu nationalist party, led by Narendra Modi—is regarded as the no-nonsense scourge of cross-border Pakistani-sponsored terrorism and topped the poll in Jammu and Kashmir. What should that tell the world? Perhaps that the people of Jammu and Kashmir want the constant cross-border interference from Pakistan to stop.

The border between India and Pakistan that lies along the state of Jammu and Kashmir is 1,125 km long. Jihadi terrorists have been infiltrating along that length for more than 40 years and the construction of underground tunnels and the cover fire provided by the Pakistan military has been a constant means of undermining India’s security and integrity.

More than 20,000 people have already been killed by terrorists in Jammu and Kashmir, and it is no use hon. Members here in this Chamber of all places condemning the radicalisation of young Muslim men in their own constituencies, while ignoring the fact that those young men are trained in the terror camps that are operating on the Pakistan border with Jammu and Kashmir. Those who continue to argue to undermine the legitimate sovereignty of India might do better to reflect that the people of India live in a relatively transparent and well-functioning democracy where the economy is growing.

Those who point to the presence of the Indian army in the state of Jammu and Kashmir might reflect that it is not Indians who have seen successive Governments overthrown by military coups, and that if it were not for the constant cross-border attacks the Indian army would not need to be there with such a strong presence. It is there to guarantee the country’s border integrity, nothing more.

Many of the victims of the cross-border terror have been Muslims. That is, of course, particularly so in the Kashmir valley, where by far the overwhelming majority of people are followers of Islam. I welcome the fact that on his recent visit Prime Minister Modi spoke of the need to give specific help to those bereaved families. Another group from the Kashmir valley who deserve specific attention is, of course, the Kashmiri Pandits, who for so long have been displaced from their homes because of the fighting and live in the sort of refugee camps that, were they elsewhere in the world, would be a constant item in our evening news.

I welcome the fact that Prime Minister Modi’s first intervention after his election to office was to ask Nawaz Sharif to come from Pakistan to attend his inauguration. I welcome the fact that, as Prime Minister, he visited Jammu and Kashmir just last month, not to engage in political rhetoric against Pakistan’s continuing border violations, but to inaugurate a new hydroelectric power project. To my mind, he seems to be doing as he did in Gujarat and focusing on bringing prosperity and development to people in the belief that votes will follow. It is right that peace in the subcontinent over the issue of Jammu and Kashmir will come only when people living on both sides of the line of control see their quality of life and standard of living improve. With that in mind, it is ill-judged for British politicians to be debating the history and status of people who are currently facing the most devastating floods in 50 years.

Our attention should surely be on the human plight of the people of Jammu and Kashmir and the humanitarian crisis of the people affected by the bursting of the banks of the Jhelum river. At least 200 people are known to have died and thousands have been stranded. Against that background and while politicians here have been raising questions alleging human rights abuses by the Indian army, the Indian army itself has mounted an enormous relief operation that has already saved the lives of 76,500 people in the flood-affected area. It has deployed 30,000 troops for rescue and relief operations, the vast majority of them—244 columns—deployed in the Srinagar region and the Kashmir valley. Eighty transport aircraft and helicopters have been mobilised, and almost 1,000 helicopter sorties have taken place, dropping almost 1,000 tonnes of relief materials. Eighteen relief camps have been established to deal with the appalling aftermath of this natural disaster.

Perhaps those who have shown themselves so keen to decry the actions—

[Mr Philip Hollobone (in the Chair)]

Order.

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[Mr Khalid Mahmood (Birmingham, Perry Barr) (Lab)]

It is always a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Hollobone. I welcome my right hon. Friend the Member for Warley (Mr Spellar), who will respond on behalf of the Opposition. I also welcome Barrister Sultan Mahmood, who is in the Public Gallery. He has been working on the matter for about 30 years—as long as I have been—and he has always tried to convey a fair perspective on the situation, which is what we need in order to resolve it. We need more people like him to do that.

After the hon. Member for Bradford East (Mr Ward) opened the debate, my hon. Friend the Member for Brent North (Barry Gardiner) spoke about Edmund Burke. I will try to plough a furrow through the middle of those contributions and see if I can achieve some sort of balance. I think that we are somewhat sidestepping the real problem by talking about self-determination. The real problem is that, for the past 70 years, while we have talked about whether we want self-determination, whether we want to be with India, whether we want to be with Pakistan or whether somebody wants to go off with China, the people of Kashmir—particularly Jammu Kashmir—have been suffering. They have suffered an immense amount of difficulty, torture and instability. As my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Ladywood (Shabana Mahmood) has said, rather than trying to take sides in the debate, we need to look at the people who currently have no rights.

Members have raised significant issues, including the size of the Indian army in Jammu and Kashmir. We need to consider how many armed forces personnel are there, what their duties are and what they are about to do. Why is it that, when a male member of a family leaves his home in Jammu Kashmir, his wife, sisters and mother are left wondering whether he will come back, whether he will ever be found again or whether he will return having been tortured and perhaps maimed for life? Why is it that, when a female member of a family leaves home, the rest of the family is left wondering whether she will return with her dignity fully intact, if indeed she manages to return at all? People face those significant issues day in, day out. We must support those people, as they are the ones who most deserve our support.

As has been mentioned, mass graves are a significant issue. There is not enough time to talk about that. Amnesty International and a number of Indian non-governmental organisations have looked at that issue and say that 10,000 people have been buried in mass graves. A barrister, Parvez Imroz, has been working hard on the issue. He estimates that at least 8,000 non-combatants have disappeared.

People have said that India is a democracy, but democracies should be open to investigation. Why has there still been no investigation by the Indian Government to try to address the issue? As has been mentioned, the Indian armed forces have special powers in Jammu and Kashmir. Why have no military personnel been tried in that area? In 2012, the United Nations said that the Indians have draconian laws, which is not acceptable in a democratic state. India professes to be democratic, so it should act as a democratic state and not have such laws.

If we want to support people in Jammu and Kashmir, they must be allowed the right to a health service that looks after them. They need a proper education service in order to grow and move forward. They need a proper structure of devolved government. Scotland has been given the right to hold a referendum. Such a referendum can take place in Kashmir only if the people of Kashmir have those basic, natural rights. They also need a transparent and accountable political structure. A lot has been said about the forthcoming elections in Jammu and Kashmir. Will proper United Nations, European Union and Inter-Parliamentary Union observers go there to see the transparency and openness of those elections for themselves so that we can stand in this place and quote the figures openly and honestly? It is important for us to look at such things.

We must provide a stable economic structure for the people of Kashmir so that they are able to deal with those things. People keep talking about the armies of Pakistan and India, but the real issue is that there have been a number of serious skirmishes on the border, and if we allow those skirmishes to continue, what happened in 2003 will happen again. There will be brinkmanship followed by a state of war between two regional nuclear powers, which is not what we want.

In order to move forward on these serious issues, we need to address the human rights and civil liberties of the people who are stuck in the region through no fault of their own and who only want to have a proper, decent life. They want to be able to move forward, so we need to do that. It has already been tried. When General Pervez Musharraf was President of Pakistan, a number of confidence-building measures were put in place between India and Pakistan. We need to put some of those measures back in place, but above all we need to consider the people of Kashmir. We must speak to them and let their voices be heard. Ultimately, whatever their religion, they are Kashmiri, and we should support them and ensure that they have the civic right to live their own life in that country.

[Mr Philip Hollobone (in the Chair)]

As a reward for those Members who have not yet been called, rather unusually, I accept, I will raise the time limit to nine minutes.

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[Gregory Barker]

I would not say middle-aged either, but I get the gist.

Over many years in the House I have had the great pleasure of listening to a number of speeches by the hon. Member for Brent North (Barry Gardiner), and I must say that the one he gave today was the best I have ever heard from him, not least because he quoted so approvingly a great Tory philosopher and statesman. If he wants to improve the tone of his speeches in the Chamber more generally, perhaps he should quote approvingly great historical Tory figures at greater length in future.

I understand the emotions that this debate has given rise to. Everyone present agrees that, wherever in the world and by whomever they are committed, human rights abuses will never be condoned by anyone in the House. We all want Kashmir to live in peace and prosperity.

However, there is a difference between us. There are those who are much more concerned that the British legacy in India means that we should tread much more carefully in seeking to express views on, let alone intervene in, the internal politics of that great democracy, and there are those who seem to presume that we have some enduring legacy that gives us the right to interfere. British insertion into what I see as an explicitly domestic issue for India and Pakistan is deeply unhelpful. We should be mindful not to insert ourselves. With the greatest respect to my hon. Friend the Member for Burton (Andrew Griffiths), as much as I see no role for the United Kingdom, I see no role for the United States either.

Unlike many other people who have spoken in a very informed way this afternoon, I am not an expert on Jammu and Kashmir—I have visited India many times, but never that region. However, in my time in the Government, I was privileged to get to know a tremendous politician who is a former Chief Minister of Jammu and Kashmir, my former opposite number in the Indian Government under the previous Administration, Mr Farooq Abdullah. It is just wrong to pretend that people from Jammu and Kashmir are not playing a vibrant role in the life of the world’s biggest and greatest democracy.

I know that others have mentioned it already, but we must remind ourselves that the recently concluded Indian elections were the largest exercise in democracy in the history of the world: 550 million free Indians, including 7 million from Jammu and Kashmir, voted in peaceful elections and witnessed the orderly transition of power to a new Government with a new vision. We should not cease to celebrate that. As we look around at a globe with so many troubles and so much strife, we must ensure that we praise and single out a triumph of humanity such as democracy in India. Elections for the legislative assembly of the state of Jammu and Kashmir had a turnout of more than 61% in 2008, which is significantly higher than in presidential elections in the United States. I expect that the turnout will be very substantial in the elections later this year.

It is worth reminding ourselves that the place we are discussing is not England. It is a beautiful part of the world, but it is very different. India’s land border with Pakistan in that state is 1,200 km long. Jihadi elements and terrorists are infiltrating into India from Pakistan as part of a terror campaign. The border is porous and must be protected. Soldiers are there not simply to intimidate but to protect the integrity of not only Jammu and Kashmir but the whole Indian nation, which has been subject to vile terrorist attacks, just like we have in the west and in the UK. Obviously, on 9/11 we remember in particular the attacks on the United States. It is important that wherever democracies stand up against terrorism around the world, we stand shoulder to shoulder with them.

I do not want to labour my points any further. Although I understand that Members wish to speak up in defence of their constituents and articulate their concerns, particularly those of constituents who are of Kashmiri origin, we must nevertheless look forward, not back. We must be mindful of India in the 21st century, rather than look back to a role that we may have played in the 20th century. We in Westminster should concern ourselves with forging a new relationship that looks firmly to the future, not with the internal affairs of that great democracy.

[Mr Philip Hollobone (in the Chair)]

We have a late entry into the debate: hot off the plane, Mr Gavin Shuker is going to speak until 4 o’clock.

[Gavin Shuker (Luton South) (Lab/Co-op)]

I am extremely grateful that you have allowed me to speak, Mr Hollobone, and I will keep my remarks short. As you mentioned, I have just got off a plane at Heathrow and so missed the early contributions to this debate, for which I feel greatly the poorer.

I want to make two specific points. First, from listening to the debate I understand that there seems to be a question about the legitimacy of the topic for discussion and whether we should restrict our contributions. We want the region of Kashmir to be a flourishing area for democracy. I am reminded of Bill Clinton’s comment that it is not only about majority rule but minority rights as well. When we talk about the region, it is vital that we understand that it is about not only who gets to vote and how, but the conditions in which that vote takes place.

There is damage and death on all sides in the ongoing conflict. That leads to a great sense of anger and frustration among many people who live in this country and want their voices to be heard in Parliament, and it also drives broader trends in the UK. I do, therefore, think that it is a legitimate topic of conversation. Fundamentally, it is an issue not of India or Pakistan, but of justice. We need to talk about the region and its future ongoing success, which can come only from the resolution of this issue, from justice and from security.

Secondly, I want to make a series of specific recommendations relating to the concern expressed by some Members that we should stay out of this area of conflict. I know from my role as a shadow Department for International Development Minister that we are a major donor to both India and Pakistan through our international development work. I believe that through that engagement we could do a great deal to help the people of Kashmir to resolve the issue.

First is the issue of democratic strengthening. We spend significant amounts of money in-country and know that allowing democratic structures to flourish makes a real difference. A number of leading organisations have identified concerns about the rights not only of political parties but of ordinary citizens to get justice.

Secondly, there is a greater role for the diaspora community in this country to play in helping to shape our response across the whole region, not only in individual areas and countries. I hope that we will be able to say more on that in the coming months because it is important that we feel a sense of ownership and recognise the historic ties in the region.

Thirdly, there are a number of cross-regional priorities. Currently, DFID cannot even tell us what we are spending in particular areas. We know that the resolution to this conflict can come only when there is an alignment and a recognition from great nations—they are possibly becoming superpowers—in the region that, without resolving this issue, they will be held back. They stand right on the edge of stepping up in our generation to become great nations and great influences in the world. That is why it is right for us to continue to ask these questions and to keep this debate going.

[Mr Philip Hollobone (in the Chair)]

I will now call the Front-Bench spokesmen. If the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs can conclude his remarks at 4.27 pm, that will give Mr David Ward three minutes to wind up the debate.