William Mead: 111 Helpline

Peter Kyle Excerpts

Tuesday 26th January 2016 Commons Chamber

[Mr Hunt]

I thank my hon. Friend for that important intervention. If we are going to deal with the 1,000 tragic sepsis deaths among children every year, it needs a sustained effort from all of us, not just the NHS. I will take away the action of looking at what Public Health England is doing to raise public awareness. The Minister for Public Health, my hon. Friend the Member for Battersea (Jane Ellison), will look at what health visitors can do to boost awareness of sepsis, but in the end we all have a responsibility to understand the symptoms better.

[Peter Kyle (Hove) (Lab)]

Last November, I contacted the Minister because the South East Coast Ambulance and 111 service carried out a trial that failed through poor governance, putting patients at risk. It turned out that the Department for Health heard about this only after Monitor contacted it. Is not his Department becoming reactive and simply not proactive enough to tackle these issues before they end up becoming statements and urgent questions in this House?

Care Homes: England

Peter Kyle Excerpts

Wednesday 13th January 2016 Westminster Hall

[Peter Kyle (Hove) (Lab)]

I beg to move,

That this House has considered care homes in England.

It is an honour to serve under your chairmanship, Mrs Main. It is the second time I have done so; the first was on my first Bill Committee, and this is now my first Westminster Hall debate, so I seem to be following you around the corridors of the House of Commons.

I take pride in the fact that my first Westminster Hall debate is on the care that we as a society provide for older generations. Care homes are an essential part of our social care network, providing support and residential care for more than 400,000 older people. We must reassure older people, families, carers and society at large that we are a country that will continue to offer sustainable, quality, statutorily supported care in what is about to become an extremely difficult funding climate for them.

This is not the first time that I have raised this topic; the Minister will be familiar with the many parliamentary questions I have tabled on the subject. As he is personally dedicated to quality care for older people, I know that he will welcome the opportunity to discuss this matter in more detail than would often be the case for a humble Back Bencher such as me going through the normal channels of parliamentary protocol.

In many ways, it is strange that we need to have this debate at all. With an ageing population and estimates that the number of people aged 85 and over is set to double over the next 30 years, people would think that having a well-funded and secure network of homes to provide care for later in life would be a given. This is the 21st century after all, and we meet in a Parliament of one of the world’s largest economies—an economy that was built through the graft and ingenuity of the wartime generation, our security delivered through their sacrifice.

However, evidence and testimony from care providers points to a sector in a perilous state, primarily for two reasons. First, a significant amount of the funding for older people in residential care who lack independent means comes from local authorities, so the significant cuts in local council funding have led to a 17% reduction in real terms in local authority spending on adult social care for older people since 2009-10.

[Paula Sherriff (Dewsbury) (Lab)]

I recently took part in a conference organised by the GMB trade union along with carers and people who run care homes. Those who run care homes expressed specific concerns about the fact that they were aware of people—and particularly older people—sometimes being kept in hospital when there was no real medical need for them to be. If we compare the costs, it costs a couple of hundred pounds a day for them to be staying in hospital—

--- Later in debate ---

[Peter Kyle]

I am extremely grateful to my hon. Friend for raising an incredibly important point, and I know well from conversations that we have had both in the Chamber and outside it how much she advocates for her constituents who are in care homes. The fact is that the so-called bed-blocking problem is often caused not by a lack of beds, but by a lack of capacity out in communities, for various reasons. One of those involves communities and the care home sector itself. The fact that people are ending up in hospitals is indicative of the much broader problem of caring for people where they need to be cared for most, which is in their homes and communities. My hon. Friend makes that point very well.

The significant cuts to local council funding have led to a 17% reduction in real terms for local authority spending. Industry research cited by ResPublica points to a shortfall between the cost and provision of the average weekly fee paid by local authorities, which worked out as £42 per resident per week in the period between October 2014 to September 2015.

[Anne Marie Morris (Newton Abbot) (Con)]

As the hon. Gentleman may know, I have been a great champion of care homes and the need to meet the challenges over many years. Does he at least, despite being absolutely right to raise these problems, feel some comfort from the 2% precept? I understand that many of the county councils are going to take up that precept, which has been introduced to alleviate some of the challenges that he alludes to.

[Peter Kyle]

I am very grateful for that intervention. I will come to the precept in a moment, when I would welcome further interventions as we talk about the detail of the precept and how it actually, while being welcome on a surface level, will be rolled out in different ways and impact on communities differently. I will keep my eyes open, as the hon. Lady might well want to come back to this when we tackle those issues.

The pressures on care providers will only be exacerbated by the increases in the minimum wage that will come in from this April. However, let me restate my position on the rising minimum wage for the avoidance of any doubt: I believe that those working in the caring professions deserve a pay rise for the fantastic jobs that they do, especially considering that it has sadly become a low-pay sector. I am glad that there is now cross-party consensus on the ambitious rise that is deserved by all those on low pay. However, we must make this work, and it will only work if we are aware of and prepare for what will happen in the areas that this will impact on hardest.

The National Care Association, for example, has estimated that the rise will add at least 5% to payrolls this year and a further 7% year on year by 2020. Without extra resources, local authorities will end up pushing independent, statutorily funded care homes closer to the brink. The excellent ResPublica report from November laid bare the startling and shocking fact that an unfunded living wage could end up with the loss of 37,000 care home places. I know that the Minister and his colleagues will point to two actions that they think will mitigate that, so let me address both of those in turn.

First, there is the social care precept. Introduced in the autumn statement, it gives local authorities the power to raise council tax by an additional 2%, the proceeds of which are ring-fenced for social care. Although all additional funds are welcome, that is a drop in the ocean compared with the additional resources needed. Following the autumn statement, the King’s Fund estimated that the funding gap for social care could be as high as £3.5 billion by the end of this Parliament.

What is more, the precept may well end up generating extra revenue where it is least needed. At present, residential care home funding is split between people who pay for their care themselves and those who have it paid for by their local authority. Self-funders pay 50% more than those funded by councils so, in effect, they subsidise those paid for by the public purse. It is not hard to work out that the homes with a smaller number of self-funders are the ones who are most at risk financially from the cut in funding rates from local authorities. The split varies across the country, but on the estimated figures put together by LaingBuisson in its “Care of Older People UK Market Report”, the number of self-funders in 2014 was only 18% in the north-east, with the majority of other regions hovering around the 40% mark. It is pretty obvious that the power to raise council tax will generate the most revenue in the areas with a higher council tax base, namely the southern regions of England, which—you guessed it—have a higher number of self-funders.

[Anna Turley (Redcar) (Lab/Co-op)]

Does my hon. Friend share my opinion that council tax can be a regressive tax, and that for areas such as mine, which have levels of deprivation and are already hit by a tax that is not particularly fair, this precept is not a progressive tax? Those areas that have already been hit hardest by cuts in local government funding will be hit yet again by this tax.

[Peter Kyle]

I am very grateful to my hon. Friend for making that point. In representing Redcar, she knows better than anyone that people in residential care homes that are heavily reliant on statutory funding will be hit the most because of the cuts that are going into local authorities, and they will be hit again by the precept, which, because of the process that I have just outlined, will be front-loading resources into the areas that need it least. Her area of the country will have people who are more dependent on statutory funding for care home places. The 2% is based on a lower percentage of people paying council tax in the first place and will have to cover more people. That is why the precept is not fair and will not get to the people who need it most.

[Anne Marie Morris]

The hon. Gentleman is being incredibly generous with his time. He raised a point about inequality. Does he agree that we should be asking the Care Quality Commission to look at how much funding is being supplied in each county to each home? At the moment, it seems that it is a bit of a lottery, for all sorts of reasons, which may or may not be part of his argument. At the very least, we should agree the standard of care and it should be equal across the country.

[Peter Kyle]

I will always be generous with my time for the hon. Lady because, early in this debate, we have found common ground. Later in my speech, I will call for assessment of exactly those areas. We need to understand how the funding changes and the new mechanisms are impacting on the ground and geographically across the country. We must make sure that any revenues generated, particularly in these times of restraint, are going to the parts of the country that need it most. My hon. Friend the Member for Redcar (Anna Turley) made the point well from the Opposition Benches. In this case, the support promised by the Government will simply not end up where it is needed most.

Secondly, on the better care fund, Ministers have belatedly recognised some of the flaws in simply relying on a precept to generate the extra funds needed for social care. There is simply not enough revenue being generated in poorer areas. The Government have said they will take that into account and use a formula for allocating extra funds for these areas taken from the better care fund. That was announced less than a month ago and we wait to see exactly how the details will operate in practice. There are murky areas and a lot of detail is coming. We must make sure we know exactly how this will impact providers in the front line.

Care England, a leading representative body for the independent care services, has already voiced its concern. It doubts whether the funding will get to the care homes that need it most. It is more likely that it will be used on other unfunded projects across the social care budget. It is worth remembering that the initial funding for the better care fund was not new money; it was funding to assist health services which was re-allocated to local authorities. I want to give the Minister the opportunity today to confirm whether the £1.5 billion is new money, or is again taken from existing health service budgets.

Local authorities will not see any of this money, whether new or recycled, until 2017-18 and even then it will be only £105 million. It could be too little, too late to prevent parts of our care home sector catering for the most vulnerable people in our society collapsing or withdrawing from the market and focusing on self-funding residents. Initial better care fund plans have been signed off by local authorities and NHS England. It would be great if an evaluation was conducted into how the funding to date has helped to support residential care homes, if at all.

I think the Minister can now see that there is cross-party support for this kind of independent evaluation into how funding mechanisms are impacting on front-line care provision. It could act as a best practice guide for authorities going forward, even when the extra resources the Government referred to become available. Will the Minister commit to this evaluation covering the impact of funding on the sector? Both Government and Opposition Members would find that helpful.

The majority of media coverage of the sector has been about the state of big providers, such as Four Seasons Health Care and HC-One, and speculation about their future viability. It is important to realise that the 10 largest providers account for about only 25% of the market, the rest being much smaller, independent providers. In my constituency there is a small family home, Wilbury rest home. Last year I sat down with the owner, Graham Dean, shortly after the Chancellor’s announcement on the living wage. Graham is the second generation of his family to run the home and, remarkably, he was born in it. Listening to him and other local independent care home managers talking with kindness, compassion and outright professionalism about the people they care for day in and day out has left a deep impression on me. They provide the kind of loving, caring environment that every human being deserves into their old age.

There are countless homes like that dotted around the country, but they are being pushed to the limit. Indeed, a survey from the National Care Association shows that almost a quarter of providers could exit the market altogether. That would be a tragedy for residents and society, and a crisis for the Government.

Another issue that is putting pressure on the sector is the national shortage of nurses, which has resulted in the increased use of agency nurses. In some cases that costs double the amount for permanent staff. To the Government’s credit, they have recognised that there is an issue and have been working with the care sector and with the Government’s skills body to develop a new training scheme to create a career ladder into caring professions. Sadly, that project was axed last December, just weeks before it was due to be launched. I understand from written answers that I have received that that was not a decision taken by the Department of Health. As a member of the Select Committee on Business, Innovation and Skills, I am happy to take up this cause with the relevant Ministers in that Department if the Minister feels that would be helpful. I would like to aid his work and I hope that his officials have already been doing much work behind the scenes to fight for its reinstatement.

As I move to my closing remarks, I would appreciate some reassurance from the Minister that the Government have a plan—dare I say it, a plan B—that is ready to be implemented should the worst-case scenario predicted by ResPublica and other respected think-tanks in the health sector come to pass. Do the Government have in place a robust contingency plan should the statutorily funded care home sector collapse, resulting in the nightmare scenario of 37,000 older people becoming homeless?

When Southern Cross Healthcare went bust in 2011, there were just enough resources from other providers in the sector to take over. Due to the current state of the industry, no private provider has the capacity to respond to a shortfall of 37,000 beds.

[Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP)]

I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on securing this debate. He is outlining the scenario that might lie ahead if the Government do not increase their intervention. Does he agree that, for the first time in history, the UK is reaching a stage where, in addition to senior citizens being dependent on care they receive in care homes, some of their sons and daughters are of such an age that they, too, are senior citizens, so the level of dependence is even greater?

[Peter Kyle]

I am extremely grateful for that intervention. I had not considered that and I will take it on board. I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for pointing it out and putting it on the record.

It may not be a Southern Cross that fails first. In fact, it is most likely to be the smaller, independent providers in areas that are most dependent on local authority placements. Can the Minister reassure us that his Department and local government have the capacity to respond to any piecemeal closures that are likely to occur?

[The Minister for Community and Social Care (Alistair Burt)]

indicated assent.

[Peter Kyle]

The Minister is nodding and I look forward to testing the argument in his statement.

Everyone here wants to ensure dignity for all later in life. That can be assured only if there is a properly resourced residential care sector with stability and financial security. I look forward to hearing the Minister’s response and receiving reassurances that all Members, of whatever party, want to hear, and I look forward to being able to work with him and care home providers in the months and years ahead to ensure that that type of residential care sector becomes a reality.

Mrs Anne Main (in the Chair): I shall call the Scottish National party’s Front-Bench spokesman at 3.30 and then the Opposition Front-Bench spokesman and the Minister. Quite a few hon. Members want to catch my eye and if they divvy up the time between them that will be helpful.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Minister for Community and Social Care (Alistair Burt)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mrs Main. I congratulate the hon. Member for Hove (Peter Kyle) on securing the debate and thank him for introducing it courteously and knowledgeably. He is a valuable addition to the House, as indeed are a number of the new Members who have spoken. This is another example of a debate where the House’s knowledge and passion is conveyed in an entirely reasonable but challenging manner. I do not think this is the only debate we will have on this subject, so we will return to a number of issues.

I thank colleagues for their contributions. My hon. Friend the Member for Bexhill and Battle (Huw Merriman) spoke about the quality care provided in our care homes, and it is important not to lose sight of that. The right hon. Member for Enfield North (Joan Ryan) spoke about costs—we will come back to that—and workforce issues. The hon. Member for Rochdale (Simon Danczuk) spoke about the need to ensure that local authorities in poorer areas are covered, and I will speak about that. The hon. Member for York Central (Rachael Maskell) spoke about choices, and I will come back to her on that in a moment.

The hon. Member for Redcar (Anna Turley) spoke knowledgeably about workforce issues. The hon. Member for North Ayrshire and Arran (Patricia Gibson)—we wish her mother-in-law well in the home where she is situated—gave more examples of what is happening in Scotland. I am always keen to see whether we can find anything that can be extrapolated from what is done up there. The hon. Member for Worsley and Eccles South (Barbara Keeley) spoke with her usual eloquence and from her strong background in the subject. Again, we will be covering a number of these issues over quite some time, and it cannot be completed today. I thank colleagues from all parties who made interventions.

I will not be able to respond to every point in 10 minutes. I will talk about quality and care issues, the spending issue and contingency—what to do if there is a problem. I think those are the three biggest things. That does not mean that I am uninterested in integration and winter pressures, which we believe we are working through and tackling. I will not talk much about the workforce, but I entirely agree that we should value the workforce at all levels and provide a decent career path. I agree entirely with the view that everyone has to be valued in a way that has not really been the case in social care up to now.

There are a number of other issues that I will just not be able to touch on. If there were specific questions directed at me and I do not cover them, I will go through them and write to the appropriate Member.

In general, we all start from a common position on the importance of this issue and the context in which it is set: an ageing population; people living longer with multiple long-term conditions; and many of our care workers working with dedication, both in homes small and large and in domiciliary care. I praise Chris Ryan of Bedford, who does much the same job as the gentleman the hon. Member for Hove mentioned in looking after a smaller home. It is a family business with a great sense of care and compassion, and I see those things in many homes.

May I start with a few words about quality? I am conscious of time, and I will try to keep my remarks on the three main issues that I want to cover quite short. In a way, we cannot win with the inspection regime. If inspection is done thoroughly and reveals things that need to be changed and improved, I can be lambasted for things that are inadequate. On the other hand, if we do not have a regime that turns up the things that need to be changed, then we are missing things.

The tougher inspection regime and the work that the Care Quality Commission is doing are good for us all. The bulk of homes—60% of the homes inspected, and a third of all homes have been inspected—have been rated “good” or “outstanding”. The CQC started with some local knowledge and wanted to go to the most difficult homes first. When it goes back to them it sees improvement, because the job of inspecting is not just about closing people down; it is also about seeing what improvement needs to be made.

In many cases, care is not about resource per se. I will never stand here as Minister and say that money and resource do not matter, but I will always say that making sure there is good-quality care is about many other things as well. There is tremendous variability of provision. There are people who handle the same resource in very different ways, and some are poorer at it than others. Quality of management, quality of leadership and in particular the use of registered managers in homes are all important issues, and there is much that can be learned through the inspection regime.

It is important for us to set out the five key questions, so that we remember what the regime is intended do. These questions are asked of each service that is inspected: is it safe, is it caring, is it effective, is it responsive, and is it well led? All inspections deliver a rating for the answers to each of those five key questions, on a scale that ranges from “inadequate” to “requires improvement” to “good” and “outstanding”. It is right that we do that, and I am not afraid of the answers that have been produced.

However, I want to go slightly beyond that process. I am never content to rest on what the inspection regime is bringing forward; I listen to other voices as well. Although I do not respond to all the tweets I receive, I read them all, and I am in contact with some of those who represent families and with those who have uncovered things and who do not feel that the inspection regime is doing its job. I say to them that we can do more, and I am listening carefully. I want to use the experiences of those who have been through poor circumstances to see whether we can make any changes that will make such circumstances less likely. There will never be nil bad circumstances, although there should be, but we must do all we can, and I am listening carefully to some less heard voices to try to ensure that that is the case.

I will speak about spending, which I know is at the heart of this debate, before I cover contingency. The hon. Member for York Central spoke about choices. I will not labour this point, but it needs to be said, because it is at the heart of all we do—yes, there are choices to be made. In a different context, I hear much talk about “mandate” from Opposition Members. The Government also have a mandate, and it is a difficult one. It is to try to ensure that our spending on public services matches the needs of the population and also looks after the future, ensuring that we are not running a continuous debt and running into more debt. It is a difficult choice, and we put it to the people and they gave their answer. We are working with that mandate.

The hon. Lady also said that how a society treats its old people is a measure of the quality of that society. That is quite true, as it is of our treatment of our children, those with mental health issues and our prisoners. It is also true of how we treat the future and what we leave for the future. That is why this Government, like every previous Government who have had to make difficult choices, including Labour Governments, have never been able to spend as much money as some would have wished. That is at the heart of this debate as well. We will do what we can with what we have got, and I will explain how we will do it, but that is the difficult choice that we have to make, and the hon. Lady does not have to do so yet. All I will say is that I will explain what we are trying to do in making that choice.

[Peter Kyle]

I am grateful to the Minister for giving way, and for letting us know that he reads all the tweets he receives, because that has opened up another avenue for communicating with him; he may well regret that, even by the end of today.

Part of the Minister’s mandate is to reduce spending—we understand that—and part of his mandate is to spend money better, which is an issue that has come up time and time again in this debate. There was cross-party support for an independent evaluation of the better care fund and how it applies to the care home industry. May I specifically ask him whether he will support the call for that evaluation, which came from Government Members as well as from Labour Members?

[Alistair Burt]

We are constantly evaluating the better care fund. We work on it with local authorities on a regular basis, and with the Association of Directors of Adult Social Services, so it is constantly being evaluated. I do not know whether something else would add to that process.

--- Later in debate ---

[Alistair Burt]

I will give two responses to that and talk about the equalisation of funding. First, we are working closely with local authorities and with ADASS. I do not pretend in any way that the situation will not be tough for the next couple of years; it will be. However, we believe the resource is there. Secondly, the social care precept will come in this year, and that money will be made available more quickly. It will be difficult and it will be tight, but a lot of changes are being made and a lot of work is being done to ensure that services are more efficient. Those things are going on all the time.

I want to address the problem that was raised about the precept and explain how it will be used to ensure that local authorities do not miss out. The Department for Communities and Local Government published for consultation a provisional local government finance settlement in December. Recognising that local authorities have varying capacity to raise council tax, it is proposed that the additional funding for the better care fund that will be available from 2017 should be allocated using a methodology that provides greater funding to authorities that benefit less than others from additional council tax flexibility for social care. That will include consideration of the main resources available to local authorities, including council tax and business rates.

[Peter Kyle]

Will the Minister give way?

[Alistair Burt]

No, if the hon. Gentleman will forgive me; I have 90 seconds left.

That is how there will be some degree of equalisation, to respond to the point made by the hon. Member for Rochdale. More money is being spent, and there is an equalisation process.

I will speak about contingency plans briefly. Local authorities now have a responsibility, through the Care Act 2014, to monitor the care providers in their area for any early warning of difficulties. In total, 44 care providers are included. Local councils are also under a duty to provide contingency plans for what would happen if there was a failure of provision, and 95% of local authority areas are currently covered by such contingency plans. Of course, I am looking for answers from the other 5% to ensure that coverage is there. If there is a failure of provision, local authorities have a responsibility to step in, and we are addressing the situation to ensure that contingency provision is in place.

We believe that we have put in money that will assist the system and provide the care that is needed. With local authorities, we are constantly looking at what can be done to make things more efficient. We want to ensure that money is spent properly. That is why the social care precept is there; it can only be spent on social care. I have mentioned the position of councils that might be in particular difficulties over that issue, and over time, we will see whether that provision is sufficient. The Government and I will keep this issue under constant review, and we will talk about it again—

Motion lapsed (Standing Order No. 10(6)).

Student Nursing (Finance)

Peter Kyle Excerpts

Monday 14th December 2015 Commons Chamber

[Ben Gummer]

I will turn to mature students, but I hope the hon. Gentleman will concede my central point. The significant majority of students going into nursing are doing so at an undergraduate point at 18 or 19 years of age. For that cohort across the rest of the higher education sector, we have seen the most spectacular expansion in opportunity than at any time since higher education was opened up more broadly to people after the second world war. That is something that Members on both sides of the House should celebrate. I know that those on the sensible wing of the Labour party also embrace the reforms and see why they were a good thing.

I disagree with many in the Opposition, but to be direct with the hon. Gentleman, I want to bring those advantages to student nursing. I want to expand the number of places available to people from all backgrounds to give them the opportunity to enter nursing, and I want to secure the advantages that come from bringing people from non-traditional and disadvantaged backgrounds into nursing, in the same way as we achieved in the rest of the higher education sector. I believe passionately in that. Even if the NHS and the students themselves—the 37,000 who applied but did not get a place last year—did not require this change, I would still be making it, because it is the right thing to do for those who otherwise would not have an opportunity. Under the new student financing arrangements, they will have that opportunity.

[Peter Kyle (Hove) (Lab)]

I wish to press the Minister on my hon. Friend’s point about mature students. In higher education, the number of mature students attending has now fallen by half. This is directly related to the current funding regime. The social mobility commissioner has cited education as the key vehicle by which mature people can achieve social mobility. How will the Minister prevent the number of mature nursing students falling as it has done in higher education?

[Ben Gummer]

I will turn to that point with pleasure, if the hon. Gentleman will give me a few minutes, because I have several things to say about mature students. I accept that this area of the proposals requires close attention, which is why I want to ensure that they are as robust as possible and that the consultation, to which the hon. Member for Ilford North referred, is as good as possible.

I want to answer the questions from the hon. Member for Ilford North about the consultation. We will consult on the full gamut of the reforms, but we will not consult on the principle, because that has been decided, as was outlined by my right hon. Friend the Chancellor. It is unfair to say he sneaked it out, given that it was made evident in his speech and was reacted to by the Opposition, as I know because I heard them. As for the timetable, the consultation will begin in January. We have not determined precisely when it will conclude, but it will be a full consultation. In significant part, it will look at how to ensure that mature students are supported, and I can confirm one element of it: we will allow mature students to apply for a second loan. Of course, that will account for only a small number of the cohort, but we will look at the impact of the changes on mature students, because they make up about a third of the cohort going into nursing.

--- Later in debate ---

[Ben Gummer]

The hon. Lady speaks with authority from her own personal experience—I have noticed that recently she has spoken her mind without holding back. We are in detailed discussions with the Nursing and Midwifery Council about precisely how the apprenticeship route will work. The council is the independent regulator and has to certify that the qualification matches the existing degree/university route. The qualification has to have complete equality of both esteem and rigour. Of course we envisage the apprentices earning a salary. We envisage opening the route to existing healthcare assistants to give them the opportunity to progress to a nursing grade while continuing at a similar salary point as an apprentice. However, because the hon. Lady’s question about maternity care pertains to student nurses rather than apprentices, I will ensure that I write to her in detail.

The hon. Lady clearly sees why this is an idea with strength, so I hope that in asking her question she realises that there will be two routes into nursing: the university route and the apprenticeship route. I think this is potentially one of the most exciting innovations in the workforce of the NHS for several decades, because it opens up nursing to a whole range of existing workers who have not had an opportunity before, and provides a wholly different route into nursing, but with the same rigour and robustness that the existing university degree route provides.

[Peter Kyle]

rose—

[Ben Gummer]

I shall give way once more, but I do not want to detain the House much longer.

[Peter Kyle]

I thank the Minister for giving way a second time. It is clear that he really cares about getting mature students into these nursing training programmes. If the numbers fall as we go forward, will he come back to us and report on it, and will he pause any further reforms until that decline is halted?

[Ben Gummer]

I expect to be held account for this significant reform right the way through the changes that are envisaged. I hope to be able to return to provide good news about progress, as has happened in other student areas. That is why we want to be very deliberative about the way in which we form this consultation, because it is important to get it right.

I have taken note of the careful questioning of the hon. Member for Ilford North, who clearly understands the full gamut of the issues that need to be addressed in this consultation. Let me answer some of the questions he raised, and I shall write to him about any that I do not answer.

The hon. Gentleman asked about the funding of clinical placements. We have already started discussions with Universities UK about that, and it will form part of the wider consultations. The Barnett consequentials will be a matter for Her Majesty’s Treasury, as is the case for everything else connected to Barnett consequentials. I know that BIS officials are discussing the issue in the normal way.

The hon. Gentleman asked about research into financial hardship, and I know that that will form part of the consultation. The Government will be open to any further research beyond the economic impact assessment.

I was asked whether I would be happy to meet students. Of course I would. I have already met Unison and the Royal College of Nursing to discuss the changes I wish to make. I should not pretend to answer for them, but I have had productive discussions with both, especially about the apprenticeship route. I know that we will disagree with both Unison and the RCN about bursaries, but I think there is an understanding, particularly on the part of Unison, of how we are trying to open up different routes to nursing for different parts of the workforce. If we get it right, the apprenticeship model will be a strong one.

The hon. Member for Ashton-under-Lyne (Angela Rayner) made an important point in her intervention about agency nurses, so let me answer that as I am passing. As I alluded to earlier, part of the reason we are looking at that issue is to ensure that we provide a more sustainable workforce throughput, so that we do not need to rely on agencies and bank staff for the peaks in NHS demand. That is why we need to do something about numbers, and I hope that, as a result of the Chancellor’s announcement, we will increase the number by 10,000 over the course of this Parliament—a very significant increase in the establishment of student nurses. In fact, it will be the largest increase in student nurses under any Government since 1948.

I hope I have answered the majority of the questions put by the hon. Member for Ilford North—

Southern Health NHS Foundation Trust

Peter Kyle Excerpts

Thursday 10th December 2015 Commons Chamber

[Mr Hunt]

I believe it does cover the mental health services for adults, but I will check and write to my hon. Friend. When the CQC does its inspections, it is important for it to inspect individual elements of what a trust does, and it gives different ratings to different parts. We need to recognise that even within one trust it is possible to have big variations in the quality of care. As I say, I will look further into this and write to my hon. Friend.

[Peter Kyle (Hove) (Lab)]

The Secretary of State rightly mentions the fact that the culture needs to change so that people can be more uninhibited about talking about the problems they face within trusts and hospitals. May I remind him that the culture is set from the top? I therefore invite him to come to the Dispatch Box again and inform the families and the House when Ministers first knew that there were problems in this trust.

[Mr Hunt]

I think this is now the third time I have said it, but the answer is that Connor Sparrowhawk’s tragic death happened in July 2013. Sara Ryan then campaigned bravely. As always on these occasions, it started with a local process where concerns were raised with the trust. The matter was escalated to NHS England in early 2014 when David Nicholson, the chief executive, and Jane Cummings, the chief nurse, got involved. Ministers were kept informed throughout, and that was the point at which Mazars—[Interruption.] I have just said that Ministers were kept informed of what NHS England was doing throughout, but that was the point at which the report by Mazars was commissioned. It is a very thorough report, and we will see it when it is published before Christmas.