Arm’s-Length Bodies (Accountability to Parliament) Bill

Peter Dowd Excerpts

Friday 14th March 2025 Commons Chamber

[Sir Christopher Chope]

Absolutely; that is why, although the term “independent” sounds seductive to people outside, it quite often means a lack of control by elected representatives over the body in question.

I am not going to spend all my time talking about NHS Dorset, but I must offer one other illustration of my concerns. I have a letter here from the chief executive of NHS Dorset, who I think receives a lot more remuneration than even the Prime Minister. I wrote to her in November, and she wrote back at the end of January about an issue relating to dermatology services in Dorset. I wrote back to her saying, “What is being done to address this issue? You haven’t answered that in your letter.” It took until 5 March, with further queries following up on it, for me to receive an answer. The letter cites my question, which I first raised back in November, as:

“Concern over the ‘unacceptably long waiting list for dermatology services. What is being done to address this issue by the Integrated Care Board?’”

The answer given is:

“As part of a Commissioning for Sustainability programme, Dermatology is one of the services that is being focussed on. The aim of the programme is to recover services to the 18-week standard target, whilst maintaining sustainability. As part of this we are currently reviewing how the commissioning and delivery of services can best achieve this.”

That is after more than four months. There is no suggestion of when the review started, when it is likely to end or what will happen. I take that as an example of the Member of Parliament being fobbed off by officialdom for having the temerity to raise an important issue on behalf of his constituents.

I could go on with many other examples from NHS, but I will not do that. Instead, I will see whether, through this debate, I can encourage the Government to go further than just abolishing NHS England. I have had many dealings with the NHS Business Services Authority, another arm’s length body, apparently controlled by the Department of Health and Social Care, but essentially a law unto itself.

I have been in dealings with the NHSBSA on a number of different subjects, but particularly on the subject of the access and treatment of people who suffered vaccine damage and have applied for vaccine damage payments. The NHSBSA is responsible for organising and running that scheme, yet progress in dealing with applications is desperately slow. As at last November, it had more than 17,000 claims relating to covid-19 vaccines, but of those, more than 7,000 were awaiting resolution, and some had been waiting more than 18 months to be resolved.

Once a claim has been rejected, as it often is, the claimant has an opportunity to go for a mandatory reversal application before they can get access to a tribunal. Dissatisfied claimants can go for the mandatory reversal, but the NHSBSA can hold up that process. As at 27 February this year, 1,657 rejected claims had been subject to mandatory reversal. Some 600 of those are outstanding, and 81 have been outstanding for more than a year. That is intolerable, because it can take more than a year for someone to have their claim dismissed. They then get a mandatory reversal and need to go to tribunal. After three years, someone’s right to litigate on this subject is taken away by the limitation period. That is an example of what happens when Departments and arm’s length bodies start taking over and being thoroughly incompetent.

[Peter Dowd (Bootle) (Lab)]

If the hon. Gentleman was so concerned about that, why did he vote for the Health and Social Care Bill, which included the setting up of NHS England, on 13 March 2012?

[Sir Christopher Chope]

I was probably in one of my less rebellious periods at that stage, but the hon. Gentleman is right to chide me, because I think it was a big mistake.

[Peter Dowd]

This is such a fundamental issue for the hon. Member, so why should we pay any attention whatever to what he is saying to us today?

[Sir Christopher Chope]

I am not insisting that anybody should pay attention to what I am saying. All I am putting forward is a proposition that these arm’s length bodies, of which there are far too many, should be brought to account more than they are at the moment.

I have just given an example of the NHS Business Services Authority. Another example is Natural England. One of the means by which arm’s length bodies are meant to be accountable to Parliament is through the publication of annual reports, with accounts. If one looks at the situation with Natural England, it has not produced an annual report and accounts for the year ending 31 March 2024. The last accounts it produced were in December 2023 for the financial year ending 31 March 2023. That is unacceptable. The Government guidance is that these arm’s length bodies should produce their report and accounts within three months of the end of the financial year.

--- Later in debate ---

[Sir Christopher Chope]

The Environment Agency as an arm’s length body is found wanting in many respects, not least that it argues that it has a lack of resource to introduce the necessary prosecutions and enforcement of the regulations that it is meant to be in charge of. Just to illustrate that point—this also relates to Natural England, actually—towards the end of the last Parliament, I arranged with the then Minister at the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs to have a meeting in his office with officials from Natural England and the Environment Agency to discuss the state of the Avon valley: the river, the nitrates and phosphates problems, and the break in the Avon valley footpath, which crosses the River Avon in my constituency but, as a result of neglect, is no longer viable.

The Minister set up the meeting in his Department. The first time I went along to the Department with him, he was sitting there with his private secretary and we were meant to have officials from Natural England and the Environment Agency with us online on Zoom—I do not know whether they were working from home—but nothing happened. At the last minute, there was a message saying that they could not attend. I said to the Minister that he should get heavy with them, because this was intolerable. It was another month or six weeks before we had an in-person meeting with them. I wish that I could say to the hon. Member for Hyndburn (Sarah Smith) that, as a result of all that, the issues have been resolved, but they have not. I have got a meeting with Natural England on site on 1 April in the Avon valley in my constituency.

All is not well with these arm’s length bodies. There are probably different solutions for resolving that, depending on their specific nature.

[Peter Dowd]

The former Paymaster General, the right hon. Member for Salisbury (John Glen), said in guidance that

“ALBs are closely aligned, but distinct from their sponsor departments”

and so on. It continued that ALBs

“are each responsible to Parliament for their use of public funds.”

Is that not contrary to what the hon. Gentleman seems to be telling us? Who is right—him or the former Paymaster General?

[Sir Christopher Chope]

That is the difference between the words and the reality. Strictly speaking—I was coming on to this—they have to produce annual reports and accounts, which go to what are described as their sponsoring Departments. In most cases, the sponsoring Department lays those accounts before the House. With Natural England, for example, we do not know what has been going on since 31 March 2023, so it is accountable, but not in what I would describe as a meaningful sense such that we can ask specific questions.

[Sir Christopher Chope]

My hon. Friend takes me back to the content of my Bill, which seeks to achieve exactly what she requests. Clause 1 states:

“House of Commons approval of relevant documents

(1) Within a period of forty days starting on the day on which a relevant document is laid before the House of Commons by, or on behalf of, a qualifying body, a Minister of the Crown must move a motion that the House of Commons approves the relevant document.”

That means that we, in the House, would be able to decide whether we approved that document.

The Bill goes on to say:

“If the House of Commons does not approve a motion under subsection (1), the relevant document shall stand referred to the Committee of Public Accounts.”

It seems to me that the best body that we have in the House to deal with this sort of situation would be the Public Accounts Committee, so there would be an automatic referral to that Committee if the Members of this House decided that they were dissatisfied with the performance of the relevant arm’s length body.

[Peter Dowd]

Has the hon. Gentleman had any discussions with the Chair of the Public Accounts Committee, the hon. Member for North Cotswolds (Sir Geoffrey Clifton-Brown), to assess how much of the Committee’s time would be taken up with going through the accounts of, potentially, 150 quangos, which would be directly responsible to Parliament?

[Sir Christopher Chope]

Quangos are not directly responsible to Parliament, which is why I have brought forward the Bill.

[Peter Dowd]

rose—

[Sir Christopher Chope]

I am not going to give way any more, but I will just make this comment: the hon. Gentleman seems to be intent on finding a reason for not taking action in this area and to block progress. May I suggest that he pursue an alternative career in the civil service, because that is exactly the sort of role that he would be well suited to?

The Planning and Infrastructure Bill was published this week. It gives extensive and revised powers to Natural England, which has not even produced its annual report for last year. Instead of abolishing Natural England, which might have been the right approach following the Prime Minister’s abolition of NHS England, so that the relevant responsibilities could be taken on by the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs directly, clauses 48 to 78 of the Planning and Infrastructure Bill give Natural England, an unelected, arm’s length body, responsibility for environmental delivery plans, the administration and control of the nature restoration levy, and a whole lot of other responsibilities, which would be better suited to the Government so that there is more direct accountability.

I can see why the Government are frustrated at the delays by Natural England. I have experienced that in my own constituency, where there was a ridiculous attempt by somebody to try to build a new open-air surfing lake. Although the site was only three miles from the coast, they wanted to build that new infrastructure, but Natural England sat on the responsibility of advising on the project and refused to take action. I kept asking the planning inspector what we could do about that, and the answer was nothing. We had to wait until Natural England got round to deciding what it was going to do, if anything, which added months.

There is a development site in the middle of Christchurch, a former police station. As a result of Natural England’s faffing about over phosphates, the cost of developing the site has increased by over £3 million, and there is a significant delay of probably two years or more. The Government need to take these powers back into the Department, rather than, as set out in the Planning and Infrastructure Bill, give even more power to Natural England, which is an unelected and scarcely accountable quango.