Contaminated Blood and Blood Products

Debate between Peter Bottomley and Diana Johnson

Thursday 24th November 2016 Commons Chamber

[Diana Johnson]

I will try to be brief. I thank, and am grateful to, hon. Members from across the Chamber for their excellent contributions. I spoke for quite a long time at the beginning, but I missed out some very important points, including the fact that the new scheme will be in place only until the end of the spending review in 2021, and that is of concern to many people. I was also remiss not to welcome my hon. Friend the Member for Washington and Sunderland West (Mrs Hodgson) to her new role. She is a good friend and this is the first time that I have been in a debate with her as the shadow Minister for public health.

I know that the issue under discussion is not part of the Minister’s policy area, but I was pleased that she offered some reassurance on particular areas, including that any budget underspend by the trusts and charities in the new scheme will stay in the Department of Health budget and not go to the Treasury. I hope that it will be used to help beneficiaries. Her comments about death certificates were also welcome.

I am still very worried, however, about the tendering process that the Government seem to be set on pursuing to decide the scheme’s new administrator. It would be absolutely wrong if the they chose a private sector provider to do that.

I welcome the stage 1 hepatitis C payments.

[Sir Peter Bottomley]

Does the hon. Lady agree that, whoever administers the scheme, if there are anomalies or cases that come outside the rules, they should be free to tell the Government that they should change them?

Women in the Church of England

Debate between Peter Bottomley and Diana Johnson

Tuesday 28th February 2012 Westminster Hall

[Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab)]

I am delighted to speak under your chairmanship, Mr Chope. First, I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Washington and Sunderland West (Mrs Hodgson) on securing the debate in the first instance. It is an important and timely debate and has attracted a lot of interest. My hon. Friend sends her apologies for being unable to attend, but as someone who has been asking questions of the representative of the Church Commissioners on the Floor of the House of Commons on the issue of women bishops for some time, I am very pleased to be deputising for her today, with Mr Speaker’s permission.

I pay tribute again to the women and men who have been fighting for justice and equality in the Church of England for many years: first with the movement for the ordination of women, and now with the organisation called WATCH—Women and the Church. In particular, I have had a number of dealings with Sally Barnes, who is very involved in WATCH. It is a great pity that we are still having battles in the Church of England about equality in 2012. Many people might be quite shocked to realise that the established Church of this country has been allowed to opt out of equality legislation. It has been able to opt out of its duties under the Sex Discrimination Act 1975 and under the Equality Act 2010. I believe that if we have an established Church of England, that Church should have regard to and follow the laws of the land as well.

It is good that we are having this debate close to international women’s day on 8 March and at a time when we are looking back to the suffragette campaign, which was reaching its peak 100 years ago. The campaign for women bishops follows the campaign for women priests, which reached a successful conclusion in 1992. I have been reflecting on that, because before the legislation was passed, I was involved in the campaign. I was a student and very involved in my chaplaincy. I remember that one morning my dad, who did not share my politics, rang me in a rather irate state. He had opened his morning copy of The Daily Telegraph to find a big picture of the scene outside Church House as the then Archbishop of Canterbury, Robert Runcie, was going into Synod. A group of women was standing there with placards saying “How long?” and “We’re waiting,” and my dad realised that one of them was me. He was quite taken aback that his daughter was in the Telegraph to start with—I did not share its politics; but he then got the picture from the Telegraph and I have it framed in my office as a reminder of one of the things with which I am very proud to have been associated.

The legislation in relation to women priests went through in November 1992, but it specifically said that women could not become bishops. The reform of 1992 has been a huge success. There are now 3,000 women priests. The talents and abilities of both women and men are now being recognised and utilised by the Church. There are four female deans of cathedrals and many others in senior roles. Despite many predictions to the contrary, that has not led to the collapse of the established Church or to any other existential disaster befalling mankind—or even womankind.

The same would be true, I believe, of moving forward to having women bishops. Women priests have entered the mainstream culture of our country, far beyond just spawning “The Vicar of Dibley”. Like many great progressive reforms, it has put new wine into old bottles. I want to celebrate and build on that success. We know that being a bishop is a very difficult job to undertake and the Church needs to choose bishops with a wide range of gifts, skills and experience. It is inconceivable that those gifts and skills and that experience will be found just in the male sex. The Church could benefit greatly from having the opportunity to select from both men and women. That is right and fair.

The argument, the theological debate, about women bishops is as it was for women priests. It concerns the interpretation of women’s role in the great Christian teachings. Those against equality believe that God created the man to lead and that the woman was there to be his helper. Some hold that Eve was created from Adam’s rib. They believe that women should not be in a leadership role over men. Therefore women are somehow seen as secondary to men. Those in favour of women bishops more commonly draw inspiration from the arguments that both men and women were created equal in God’s image.

When I was looking at the arguments, I found a familiar theme about the God-given role of certain individuals or groups. I read carefully the debates on the abolition of the slave trade and I shall explain why. William Wilberforce fought very hard in the House of Commons to champion that cause. The discussion at that time was about how a Christian could defend slavery. There is symmetry with the idea that there are preordained roles that people have to play. It is striking when we look back and then look at the issues of equality and justice that the Church of England should be at the forefront of championing today.

The role of women in the history of Christianity, from the time of Jesus, has often been painted out of the picture, just as happened with black people and the tremendous role that they have played in our history. However, if we look at the Bible, we know that Jesus treated women fairly. He spoke to them as equals, and of course it is always recognised that Mary Magdalene was the first witness to the resurrection. In the early Christian Church, until about 400 AD, female priests and congregation leaders were very common.

Those who draw on the literal interpretation of the Bible apply it word for word to the modern world. That can be dangerous, but they also do it based on a selective interpretation of the text—one that I think is based on worldly interests and prejudice. Whatever happens in the politics and obscure committees of the Church of England, the real world and the United Kingdom have changed enormously, especially during the past century. The real world looks like leaving the Church of England behind. Women are now far more educated, are more likely to have a job outside the home, can vote equally with men and are no longer the property of their fathers and passed to their husbands on marrying.

There is much further to go on equality issues. There is a need for more women in Parliament—as I am sure all hon. Members recognise—in our local authorities, at the Bar and in the boardroom. However, women have broken through as leaders in society. We are no longer there just to make the tea. In 1979, we had the first woman Prime Minister; and Margaret Thatcher duly proved that a woman could do the job of leader in society as badly as any man.

We are looking at a process of change. God was said to have created the earth in seven days. It is taking a great deal longer for the tortuous internal machinery of the Church of England to introduce the simple reform for women bishops. The draft Bishops and Priests (Consecration and Ordination of Women) Measure is currently in its final legislative stages. It was considered at the February General Synod after recent consultation among the 44 dioceses saw 42 come out in favour of women bishops. Only two—London and Chichester—narrowly voted against. Thirty-three voted explicitly against any provisions for those who did not accept women bishops. Nine voted for some provisions.

I want to concentrate on the Manchester motion, as it has become known. Synod debated the motion, which asked the House of Bishops to use its powers to amend the Measure by incorporating co-ordinate jurisdiction—there are a variety of interpretations as to how that would work in practice—in clause 2 and removing the words “by way of delegation”. That was the substance of the Archbishops’ proposed amendment of July 2010, which Synod rejected by a small margin in one house, but this time, after a thorough debate, all three houses of the Synod clearly voted not to ask the bishops to take such a course.

In an earlier debate on the results of the diocesan Synod voting, however, the Archbishop of Canterbury intervened to ask Synod to allow the bishops one last look at the Measure. It was unclear whether he meant he wanted Synod to support the Manchester motion, and members interpreted his words in both directions. Essentially, however, he has paved the way for the bishops to amend the Measure slightly.

Almost all members of Synod, including both archbishops, are convinced that the Measure must be passed in July for the sake of the credibility of the Church of England. An unknown factor is whether there is a sufficient majority in the House of Laity, and in the light of that the Archbishop of Canterbury is keen to see whether there is a way through that will enable more laity to support the Measure, while not alienating those on the pro-women bishop side, who already find the Measure a huge compromise.

A known factor, however, is that if the bishops amend the Measure, shifting it towards the views of opponents, all the indications are that it will lose support in the House of Clergy and will not gain a sufficient majority there in July. It would also be somewhat peculiar if the House of Bishops used its powers to change a draft Measure about its own reform in the face of the overwhelming support given to that Measure by the wider Church membership through diocesan Synod voting.

As I said, the draft Measure goes to the House of Bishops in May, and it can amend the reforms as it sees fit. If it does, that would be unacceptable to WATCH and most senior women, because it would change the episcopacy in ways that would undermine the Church’s integrity and mission, as well as limiting female bishops’ ministry too far.

When I looked at this issue, I was struck by the fact that women have actively engaged with the bishops in the discussions that have been held so far. In June 2008, senior lay and clergywomen attended a meeting of the College of Bishops to discuss proposals for women bishops. Since then, no women have been part of the discussions in the House of Bishops. It is inconceivable to anyone engaged in equality and diversity work in other contexts that the Church would make the decision about consecrating women as bishops without seriously engaging during this last phase with those who will be most directly affected by that decision.

That is where we are at the moment. If the changes the bishops make to the Measure are small, it will come back to General Synod in July for final approval, which will involve further debate and voting. If the changes are major—I have explained how the Measure could be changed in a major way—the whole process will go backwards, with another consultation among the dioceses and more debates and voting.

If we get to the stage of final approval, it will require a two-thirds majority in each house—the House of Bishops, the House of Clergy and the House of Laity. That sounds a bit like Labour’s electoral college for electing leaders, which is complicated and rather challenging, with the constituency Labour parties, unions and MPs all having to have their say. The process around the Measure certainly seems to be more about worldly politics than about the great doctrinal principles that opponents of modernisation argue over.

If the two-thirds majority is achieved, and the interests of the minority who can scupper it are overcome, that is still not the end of the process. The Measure then goes before the Ecclesiastical Committee of Parliament, which can refer it to both Houses of Parliament for a vote. In that respect, the Second Church Estates Commissioner, the hon. Member for Banbury (Tony Baldry), who will be responsible for taking the proposals through the House of Commons, was quoted in July 2010 as saying,

“be under no illusion about one thing. A difficult task could well become impossible if I had to steer through the House of Commons any measure which left a scintilla of a suggestion that woman bishops were in some way to be second class bishops.”

That is a helpful quote.

We now know that only a tiny minority of parishes oppose women bishops. Under the current legislation, only 3% have asked to be looked after by provincial episcopal visitors, commonly known as “flying bishops”, which is quite a challenging idea. The idea of someone swooping in to provide whatever people need sounds like the Church of England’s version of “The Sweeney”—the attitude to women that underlies that certainly belongs more to the world of “Life on Mars” than to 2012.

People who know change is coming are now looking at any way of delaying it. They are looking at whether there can be more restrictions and at possible ways of avoiding change. Obviously, some members of the Church of England—some priests—have accepted the Pope’s invitation to join the Roman Catholic Church.

However, more than enough has been done to cater for those who have rather challenging attitudes, shall we say, to the world we live in and to the commitment the Church of England and Christianity have always shown, and should always show, to equality, justice and fairness. That group perhaps sees the Church as a monument, rather than as the movement it really should be. To bend any further to the opponents of progress would mean stopping change. Indeed, they would like to reverse the progress that has been made so far.

There is an idea that we are moving far too fast. There are those who claim to support the cause of women bishops, but who believe that we should not proceed too far or too fast. With them, the decision always has to be taken in the future, and decisive moves forward always seem to be a few years ahead.

[Sir Peter Bottomley (Worthing West) (Con)]

As the campaign started in 1909, and we are now in 2012, does the hon. Lady think that even opponents of the change would think that 103 years was going too fast?

[Diana Johnson]

The hon. Gentleman makes a good point. St Augustine established the Church in England in 597 AD—1,415 years ago. Discussions about women’s ordination have been going on since the Church of England’s Lambeth conference in 1920. The issue of women bishops was first raised in the Church Assembly in 1966. There is, therefore, quite a background to the issue, and no one could say we are rushing into making this change. It has been formally debated in Synod since 2000, so the accusation that we are moving too far and too fast on gender equality really does not hold water.

The Church of England is a broad Church, and we want it to go forward as a broad Church. I certainly want it to be relevant to the society we live in. I want it to promote faith, decency and good work in the wider community. It is obviously important to respect its past, but we should not live in the past; we should look to how the Church can develop and serve the needs of the community now. We need to serve the people of today and tomorrow, but we are perhaps being held back a little by some of yesterday’s people. A broad Church should not be held back by narrow interests, and there is now broad support for the Measure to go through all its stages.

I hope we will see the first woman bishop very soon. I will certainly persist in putting my questions to the Second Church Estates Commissioner, the hon. Member for Banbury, to ensure that progress continues to be made. I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for the work he does; he is a real champion of equality and fairness in the Church.