(1 year, 12 months ago)
Westminster HallWestminster Hall is an alternative Chamber for MPs to hold debates, named after the adjoining Westminster Hall.
Each debate is chaired by an MP from the Panel of Chairs, rather than the Speaker or Deputy Speaker. A Government Minister will give the final speech, and no votes may be called on the debate topic.
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As is the convention for the 30-minute debate, there will not be an opportunity for the Member in charge to wind up.
I beg to move,
That this House has considered Government policy on a further independence referendum for Scotland.
Today is St Andrew’s day, and on this national day there is a particular significance and imperative. Last week, the UK Supreme Court told the Scottish Government that they could not exercise their democratic mandate to hold an independence referendum. But there was something else in that judgment—something that simply cannot be tolerated. There was the suggestion that, somehow, Scotland as a nation does not possess a right to self-determination. In suggesting that, the London Supreme Court overturned what has been the accepted legal, historic and political position that the UK is a voluntary Union.
Scotland’s separate constitutional tradition is perhaps best summed up in the view expressed by Lord Cooper, in the case of MacCormick v. Lord Advocate,
“The principle of the unlimited sovereignty of Parliament is a distinctively English principle, which has no counterpart in Scottish constitutional law.”
The Supreme Court seems to have repudiated that. Last week’s judgment rendered the UK a state of glaring contradiction. There are contradictions in our shared history, and contradictions of equality, politics, and representation.
The UK enthusiastically claims it seeks to preserve democracy the world over, yet moves to block Scotland at each and every turn. Can the Minister imagine the circumstances where, having entered the common market and ratified every subsequent treaty—leading to the European Union—the EU Parliament moved to block his party’s Brexit vote, or set a limit on when and if such a vote could be heard? The notion is, of course, ludicrous, because democracy is not a single event but an evolving and continuous process. That is how civilised people behave, and how freedom of thought and expression are peacefully demonstrated. Those are the foundations of inalienable human rights.
I will consider the contradictions, concluding with a commentary of the Supreme Court’s judgment. We are often told in this place that Scotland must be proud of our shared history as part of the most successful political union ever. I will test that narrative and ask the Minister to consider our shared history through a Scottish prism.
Before the Union, the English Alien Act 1705 threatened economic sanctions if Scotland did not settle the royal succession, or negotiate for a political union. The treaty was met with vociferous opposition both inside and outside Scotland’s parliamentary chamber but, given threats and enticements, a majority of Scottish parliamentarians were persuaded. The people were never consulted.
It so often goes that this is all ancient history and irrelevant to a modern Scotland in a respectful union of equals. Last week’s judgment challenged that previously understood narrative. What of that modern Scotland? In my lifetime, the political complexion of Westminster rule has rarely reflected the polity of Scotland. We have endured repeated Tory Governments that Scotland did not vote for, or Labour Administrations that took us into illegal wars that we wanted no part of.
Socioeconomic policies have destroyed our communities, exploited our resources and worked against the utility of the people of Scotland, contrary to the Articles of Union. The pursuit of such social and economic policies has driven a stake through the heart of once proud communities. As noted in the pleadings of the hon. and learned Member for Edinburgh South West (Joanna Cherry), in her prorogation case to the UK Supreme Court, the 1707 parliamentary Union between England and Scotland may have created a new state but it did not create one nation.
Scotland was an independent nation for millennia before its coerced incorporation. It remains a distinct and internationally recognised people and country. No clearer is that evidenced than by the much earlier and continuing Union of the Crowns, where our shared monarch does not accede to a single throne of Britain, but takes the separate crowns of the realms of Scotland and England.
As a member of the EU, the UK possessed and exercised a veto, yet claimed its sovereignty was impeded by membership. Scotland has no such mechanism in this place, and is always subject to the wiles of the policy of its larger neighbour, exemplified by Brexit. How does that constitute access to meaningful political process, as claimed by the UK Supreme Court judgment?
In signing the Atlantic charter of 1941, wartime Prime Minister and hero of the Conservative party, Winston Churchill, brought into being the principle of self-determination of peoples, as now set out in the United Nations charter, in article 1(2), article 73 and article 76. Margaret Thatcher in her memoirs said of Scotland:
“As a nation, they have an undoubted right to national self-determination.”
John Major, when Prime Minister, said of Scotland:
“No nation could be held irrevocably in a Union against its will.”
On a point of order, Mr Bone. It is a shame that the Minister did not allow me to intervene. However, he makes assertions that are simply not possible. He is asking me in some way to manage the Scottish Government, or indeed to divorce myself from the reality experienced by my constituents, who voted for me to secure Scotland’s independence.
I thank the hon. Gentleman for that point of order. It was clearly not a point of order, but his remarks are on the record.
I think our constituents would rather that this place, the Government and the Scottish Government concentrated all their attention and resources on the issues that matter to Scots and people across the United Kingdom.
Let me respond to the issues that the hon. Gentleman raised. It is clear to this United Kingdom Government and people in Scotland that now is not the time to talk about another referendum. This Government have noted, and respect, the unanimous ruling of the United Kingdom Supreme Court. Its unanimous view on the substantive matter supports the United Kingdom Government’s long-standing position that a referendum is not within the powers of the Scottish Parliament. It is clear that Scotland has a strong and thriving democracy, but the power to have a referendum rests with this place. To suggest that Scotland does not have a thriving and strong democracy, and to suggest that only those who support leaving the UK support democracy, is an insult to the majority of Scots who wish to remain part of the United Kingdom. The nationalists’ rhetoric is irresponsible. The notion is absurd—so absurd that, in recent days, we have heard the absolute nonsense of some nationalists bemoaning the death of democracy in one breath and boasting of election victories with the next. I should be clear that the hon. Gentleman was not guilty of that, for perhaps obvious reasons.
The Scottish Parliament is able to legislate in every area in which the Scotland Acts 1998, 2012 and 2016 give it the power to do so. That makes it one of the most powerful devolved Parliaments in the world. People want the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish Government to focus on the issues that matter to them, not on constitutional division. We should not forget that the people of Scotland voted decisively to remain part of the UK in 2014. The hon. Member made much of the people of Scotland’s need for self-determination; the vote in 2014 was the ultimate act of self-determination. The Scots voted in record numbers to remain part of the United Kingdom.
On the hon. Member’s questions about the path to a referendum and whether the Union is based on consent, in 2014 both the UK and Scottish Governments agreed that it was right for the people to have their say in an independence referendum. If there is ever a referendum again, then it has to be based on consent and consensus across both Governments and all parts of civic Scotland.
I will spend a little time pointing out some of the benefits of the Union, which the hon. Member failed to mention at all.
The Minister does not have to give way, but he might be under the impression that we have to keep this debate to half an hour. We have some extra time because the previous debate finished early, if that helps the hon. Member and the Minister.
I am grateful for that clarity, Mr Bone. I am keen to make the strong and positive case for Scotland remaining part of the United Kingdom. We have heard much nonsense from nationalist Members in this debate, and I want to make the record slightly more accurate.
There has also been the record £1.5 billion city and growth deals programme, which invests in Scotland’s infrastructure and future. Another example would be the collaboration of local councils, which are delivering real devolution by levelling up communities and bringing local projects to life. Another divisive referendum is the wrong—
We have another point of order, which I am sure will be in order this time.
The question that is being considered is the position on a further independence referendum for Scotland, not the Government’s alleged beneficence towards Scotland. That is not the matter under consideration. I would respectfully ask that the Minister restricts his comments to the subject of the debate.
Thank you very much for that intervention, but I am afraid that is my job. If the Minister is wandering off, I will bring him to order. He is wandering, but not quite off the pitch yet.
Thank you, Mr Bone. Another divisive referendum is the wrong priority, at the worst possible time, and would be a complete distraction from the very real challenges that people across our country face.
I am listening to the Minister expound the great virtues. Can he explain to me why, when Scotland is energy-rich, more than half of our people are going to be fuel-poor this winter, and many will be in extreme fuel poverty?
Order. I am just considering what the hon. Member said, and am remembering what the hon. Member for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath said. I am not quite sure what that point has got to do with the referendum. I will leave it up to the Minister.
(5 years, 1 month ago)
Commons ChamberI thank the hon. Gentleman for his intervention. To put it on the record, in its first response, the Department of Justice admitted that it did not routinely record information in relation to the exercise of the discretionary power to provide continued support. As he said, that is completely unsatisfactory. Sadly, the report also says that the Department of Justice is not proposing any policy changes or consultations in relation to the provision under section 18(9). That is a great pity, because we need to understand how discretionary support works and whether there could be a plan to extend it under the statute to provide more comprehensive support to benefit the wellbeing of victims of human trafficking.
I further commend Northern Ireland’s legislation as the only legislation in the United Kingdom with substantial provisions to tackle the demand for sexual exploitation—an international treaty obligation—and to provide support for those who want to exit prostitution. Although many women in prostitution are not trafficked, we know from the NRM data that the majority of female victims are trafficked into sexual exploitation. Rachel Moran, a survivor of prostitution, commented that
“prostitution is the context in which sex trafficking takes place”.
A report produced by the Conservative Party Human Rights Commission, which I have the privilege of chairing, highlights the need to reduce the demand for prostitution by creating a new criminal offence of paying for sexual services in England and Wales; not supplying them, but paying for them. Since the Human Trafficking and Exploitation (Criminal Justice and Support for Victims) Act (Northern Ireland) 2015, France, the Republic of Ireland and Israel have introduced similar legislation. Our country will be behind the curve if we do not address this. I commend the commission’s report to the Minister; perhaps we can discuss that as well if he is kind enough to agree to a meeting.
Those who have been abused through sexual exploitation must not be treated as criminals. Instead, those who exploit and coerce others must be penalised. In countries such as Sweden and Norway, which have legislated to tackle the demand for paid sex, fewer men report having paid for sex following the introduction of those laws. According to a report published by Queen’s University Belfast a couple of weeks ago, relating to the 2015 Act, 11.6% of people asked said either that they had stopped purchasing sex or that the law was likely to make them stop completely, while 27.1 % said that they would purchase sex less frequently.
My hon. Friend is making a powerful point about prostitution, but in respect of victims of sexual exploitation, there is a danger. If prostitution is driven underground, it is much more difficult to recognise and release the victims of human trafficking. There is a balance to be struck.
I hear what my hon. Friend says, but all the evidence that I have seen from countries where paying for sex has been criminalised shows a reduction in that form of abuse. In other words, laws such as the one in Northern Ireland are having positive effects.
As we heard earlier, only yesterday the Police Service of Northern Ireland announced the arrest—through the use of the 2015 Act—of a 57-year-old man in the Belfast area on suspicion of human trafficking for the purpose of sexual exploitation, controlling prostitution, brothel keeping and money laundering. The PSNI also announced the arrest of five men on suspicion of paying for sexual services. The officer in charge made a powerful statement, and I hope that the House will bear with me if I put it on record; I am approaching the end of my speech. The officer said:
“Whilst the sale of sex in itself is not a crime in Northern Ireland, it is a criminal offence to purchase sex. I want to make it very clear—if you are paying for sexual services, you are committing a crime. Do you really want to be getting a knock on the door from police, perhaps having to explain to family and friends why you have been arrested? I want to encourage anyone who purchases sex to think of the consequences. Furthermore, you cannot be sure that the person providing the services has not been forced to or trafficked to make a profit for the person controlling them.”
The importance of the way in which prostitution ties in with trafficking is currently being reviewed by a piece of work following up the independent review of the Modern Slavery Act. Prostitution is also the subject of a new inquiry by the Women and Equalities Committee. I believe that we should follow Northern Ireland’s progressive steps and create the offence of paying for sex and consequently make England and Wales a less attractive destination for traffickers.
In acknowledging the very significant accomplishment that is the 2015 Act, I cannot but note that it provides a fantastic example of how we have all benefited from a functioning Northern Ireland Assembly. Most of the Act was supported by all the parties, and, crucially, the Democratic Unionist party and Sinn Féin supported all of it. I very much hope that Stormont can be up and running again very soon, so that we can benefit from its legislative prowess in this and other areas.
It is a great pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Belfast South (Emma Little Pengelly), who made the very good point about the 45 days and the national referral mechanism. When we debated and introduced the proposal in the Modern Slavery Act 2015, I remember 90 days being thought to be appropriate. We were reassured, however, that people would be looked after irrespective of the 45 days, if necessary. We do not have enough information to make that judgment in relation to Northern Ireland. I do not want to say that the Government are not doing that; I would just like more information.
The United Kingdom leads the way on fighting human trafficking. It is a great credit to the previous Government that they passed the Modern Slavery Act and that they listened to Members on both sides of the House. A little while ago, when I was chairman of the all-party parliamentary group on human trafficking and modern slavery, the hon. Member for Upper Bann (David Simpson) invited me to Northern Ireland. I had travelled all over the United Kingdom and I saw in the voluntary and charitable sector in Northern Ireland an effort that exceeded what was happening in the rest of the UK. It is to their great credit that those voluntary organisations help victims of human trafficking in Northern Ireland. I also had the pleasure of meeting the Justice Minister at the time, and I was absolutely convinced that there was a determination in Northern Ireland to do their best to stamp out the evil of human trafficking.
The phrase “The evil of human trafficking,” does not really grasp what really happens. We are dealing with violent, evil, criminal gangs. It is no surprise to hear today that loyalist and other evil gangs that have operated in Northern Ireland on sectarian lines are the sorts of gangs that would get involved in human trafficking. They are just despicable.
I will give one example of what happened in Northern Ireland some time ago. A restaurant in Belfast was importing young girls into Northern Ireland. They were told when they came in that they would be working in the restaurant, but that is not what they did. They were taken to a terraced house in Belfast where the locks on the bedroom doors were on the outside, not the inside, to lock the girls in. These girls were then used for prostitution, but let us be honest: it was not prostitution; it was repeated rape. I still cannot really get across the evil of it. Imagine if you were a young girl, brought up perhaps with a strong religious background in Hungary, who had come to this country thinking you had got a job, but you finished up being raped and raped and raped.
To the great credit of the Police Service of Northern Ireland, it broke that gang up. Police forces across the United Kingdom have a very good record of doing that, but we have to look after the victims who are rescued. I have to say that in the case of adults, we do that very well. The approach taken in England and Wales—with the Salvation Army, the distribution of money from the Ministry of Justice, and voluntary organisations—is exactly the right way to look after adults. I am sure that adult victims in Northern Ireland are also very well looked after. I am not at all concerned that victims of human trafficking are sometimes regarded as criminals and sent home; I just do not believe that happens. We look after victims properly.
What I worry about are the child victims of human trafficking. For a 20-year-old girl who comes over expecting to work in a restaurant and who finds herself repeatedly raped, it is appalling, but let us imagine being a 15-year-old girl in those circumstances—it is even worse. They are rescued and the police service does its job but, as a child victim of human trafficking, they should not be looked after in the same way as an adult victim. The Minister said in one line, “and there are similar arrangements for child victims.” No, there are not. They are totally different arrangements. We have to get a grip so that we do not look after child victims in the same way as we look after adult victims.
As the hon. Member for Belfast South said, the data is not there. The problem is that so many children who have been trafficked find themselves re-trafficked because we do not give them the same protection that we give adults. We have an excellent Minister—I am pleased he is in the Northern Ireland Office and not the Brexit Department, because we do not agree on the Brexit issue—and I want to know about the pathway. This touches on what all Members have said: once a person has been recognised as a victim, it is no good just looking after them for 45 or 90 days and patting them on their head. That does not happen, of course, but the children disappear into a system that is not the same as the system for adults. They are re-trafficked but, of course, we do not have the data.
When a victim of human trafficking is rescued, I want to know where they are and what has happened to them after a year. If we cannot prove they are still safe, we can bet our bottom dollar that they have been re-trafficked. It is not a difficult thing to do, and thankfully there are not that many victims, but it is no good looking after victims only at the beginning; we have to look after them continuously so they are not re-trafficked.
In a future report to this House, would it not be good if we could know what has happened a year later to every victim of human trafficking in Northern Ireland? If they are all safe and well, we will know our system is working; but if they are not, we can take action to sort it out.
(11 years, 10 months ago)
Commons ChamberFirst, I am sure that the whole House will join me in welcoming the hon. Gentleman back to his place. Although we do not always agree with all his points and arguments, we are absolutely delighted with his contribution. We are glad to see him in good health and wish him all the best.
Should Scotland vote to become independent in the referendum—I do not believe that it will—the use of sterling would be a matter for negotiation. The reason for the Bank of England’s credibility as the lender of last resort at present is that we have a single, central fiscal authority and the UK taxpayer stands behind it. To complicate that would require negotiation with the rest of the UK, which would have to consider its interests. We cannot have a one-sided wish list; we have to recognise that there will be negotiation.
Is not the hon. Member for Dundee East (Stewart Hosie) and, in fact, the Secretary of State wrong on this? If there were an independent Scotland, I assume that it would want, mistakenly, to apply to join the European Union, so would it not then be required to accept the euro?
There are many ways in the which the SNP and the hon. Member for Dundee East are completely wrong—I agree with the hon. Member for Wellingborough (Mr Bone) on that. He makes an important point that, amid all the SNP’s turmoil over its position on Europe, it has never set out how it would negotiate the opt-out from the critical central requirement to join the euro.
(12 years, 2 months ago)
Commons ChamberIn the first instance, the 2010 regulations provide a route for individuals who believe they have been blacklisted. As I said in my previous answer, the evidence sessions being held by the Scottish Affairs Committee are a good way of reviewing how those regulations and other laws are working in that regard. We will take its report very seriously.
9. What recent estimate he has made of public expenditure per head of population in Scotland.
Since this question was last asked in February, no new official figures have been published. The most recent estimate of the level of public expenditure in Scotland, published in October 2011, shows that the level of public expenditure in Scotland was £10,165 per head for the year 2010-11.
The last time my hon. Friend raised this point, it followed a discussion with Mrs Bone and other members of the family. I appreciate that she is otherwise distracted getting herself ready for this weekend’s charity run, for which the whole House will wish her all the best. I regret that when she focuses back on politics, the answer she will hear is very little different from the one I gave a few months ago, namely that our priority is to sort out the public finances and the mess we inherited from the Labour party. We are focused on that relentlessly, and any future review must wait until it is completed.
(12 years, 5 months ago)
Commons ChamberIt obviously took a long time to think of that one. I have set out the achievements of the Government on the NHS. Even the King’s Fund, in its latest report, which has sometimes been quoted by the Opposition, says:
“There is no evidence of a…decline in service quality or performance”.
It also says:
“infection rates have not noticeably deteriorated—remaining relatively stable in…most measures…or, in the case of MRSA and C difficile, reducing.”
These are important achievements in the health service, and they are a contrast with the Opposition health spokesman saying in June 2010:
“It is irresponsible to increase NHS spending in real terms”.
They are also a contrast with the number of managers doubling under the Labour party; a contrast with Labour’s last year in power, when the number of NHS managers rose six times as fast as the number of nurses: and a huge contrast with the situation in Wales, where Labour is cutting NHS spending.
Given the appalling behaviour of Liberal Democrat Cabinet Members in not supporting the Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport, would my preferred Deputy Prime Minister arrange a divorce from the yellow peril so that we can govern with Conservative policies as a minority Government?
(12 years, 9 months ago)
Commons Chamber6. What recent estimate he has made of the level of public expenditure per person in Scotland.
The most recent estimate of the level of public expenditure in Scotland, published in October 2011, shows that the level of public expenditure in Scotland was £10,165 per head for 2010-11.
I have met a number of Members of Parliament for whom BAE is in their constituencies—including the right hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull West and Hessle (Alan Johnson),who came to see me with my right hon. Friend the Member for Haltemprice and Howden (Mr Davis). I have had many MPs coming to see me. This Government are absolutely committed to helping with Eurofighter and Typhoon in every way we can. That is why I have undertaken trips right across the middle east. Let me say that when I do, I often get criticised by Labour MPs for taking BAE or Rolls-Royce on the aeroplane. I think it is right to fly the flag for great British businesses, and I will continue to do so.
Q9. Last week at the breakfast table, Mrs Bone was saying how she knew the Prime Minister wanted to deport the terrorist Abu Qatada straight away and put the national interest first—[Interruption.]
(13 years ago)
Commons ChamberI do not think we should take any lessons on rigged referendums from the hon. Gentleman’s party, which is determined not to have a straightforward question on Scottish independence—the whole reason it exists—but to bring in other issues as well. Let us get a straightforward question now and end the damaging uncertainty.
3. What steps he is taking to reduce administrative costs in his Department.
Scotland Office Ministers are determined that the Office contribute to the Government’s task of reducing the budget deficit. I and my officials are bearing down hard on administrative costs through a range of efficiency measures, including using framework contracts negotiated by other Government bodies, sharing resources with the other territorial offices and making more efficient use of leasehold property.
The Prime Minister wants to see smaller and more effective government. Only last year, the Secretary of State for Scotland called for the abolition of the Scotland Office. Would the very capable Minister not be making a career enhancing move if he suggested now from the Dispatch Box that we should abolish the Scotland Office, the Wales Office and the Northern Ireland Office and replace them with an office for the Union?
Absolutely not. At this time, when the United Kingdom faces its greatest ever danger from separatists, the Scotland Office is a bulwark against independence.
(13 years, 8 months ago)
Commons ChamberI will certainly agree to do that. It is important that we try to increase the amount of organs available for donation. In the last Parliament, there was a debate about whether we should move formally to an opt-out system, and there are difficulties with that, but there is a huge gap between where we are now and a formal opt-out system, in encouraging patients and talking to them about what can be done. I am sure that we can make steps forward, and my right hon. Friend the Health Secretary will do that.
Q8. Mr Speaker, 373,000 Daily Express readers want it, 80% of Conservative Members support it, the Deputy Prime Minister would love it, and my wife demands it. The British people, Conservative supporters, the leader of the Liberal party and especially Mrs Bone cannot all be wrong. Prime Minister: may we have a referendum on whether the United Kingdom should remain in the European Union?
I wish that my wife were as easy to please. I was worried about where that question was going.
I am afraid that I must disappoint my hon. Friend and Mrs Bone. I think that we are better off inside the EU but making changes to it, in the way that we are setting out.