Kashmir

Paul Uppal Excerpts

Thursday 11th September 2014 Westminster Hall

[Paul Uppal (Wolverhampton South West) (Con)]

As always, it is a pleasure to serve under your stewardship, Mr Hollobone. I do not always take my allotted time in debates because I tend to find I make quite pertinent points. I am a football fan and, as anyone who has watched Barcelona play will know, it is not always about how much possession a team has but what they do with it, so I will try to make some specific points.

One could almost predict what individual Members are going to say. It is easy for the debate to be divided into contributions that take a pro-Pakistani position and those that take a pro-Indian position. I have not prepared any notes for my speech, as I thought I would come along and actually listen to the various contributions. We have heard, particularly from the hon. Member for Brent North (Barry Gardiner), about the contributions that we can make as constituency MPs. My method is always to follow Churchill whenever I want to contribute on such things:

“First—country, second—constituency, third—party.”

I just want to add my personal perspective.

We sit here 13 years on from 9/11. The timing is interesting from the perspective of today’s debate. Many countries look to the British Chamber and the British Parliament because we still have prestige among many of our fellow citizens throughout the world. As people in India and Pakistan look to us, we cannot help but be struck by the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Wycombe (Steve Baker) on the perspective of history. Yes, Britain made many great contributions to India, but no one who comes from the subcontinent, or who has a heritage similar to mine, can help but be struck by the fact that in the last few days and weeks before partition there was an element of cut and run. To this day, people are still picking up the pieces.

I have a personal example from my maternal village during the time of partition. I have previously referred to this story in the House. The village was predominantly Sikh, and next door to my great-grandfather’s house was a Muslim household. As the night progressed, a huge mob massed outside my great-grandfather’s house. The mob was determined to burn the Muslim part of the village down. Some people were primarily driven by ideas of retribution and by the pain suffered by other families and friends. My great-grandfather stood alone and said, “If anybody touches this house, they are attacking my own family.” I first visited India in 1981, and when I went there I met the remnants of that family, who are still there to this day. They hugged and kissed me, and I had absolutely no idea why they had such a fondness for me. In subsequent years, I realised that that spirit of good will runs throughout the entire Indian subcontinent.

I cannot help but be struck by the irony that most of the contributors to this debate, although not all of them, have been white, middle-aged men talking about what we should be doing in such conflicts. That does not stick in the craw of many people watching this debate, but they will be acutely aware of the history and the heritage. I say this respectfully to the hon. Member for Bradford East (Mr Ward): in his opening comments he said that he was not being patronising or condescending. I always remember that, when I was growing up, people would say to me, “Paul, I don’t mean to be racist, but” and proceed with a racist sentiment. Or they would follow, “I don’t mean to be rude, but” with a rude statement. I am not saying that is the hon. Gentleman’s intention, but I am asking for comprehension and understanding of how it is perceived by a wider audience.

We have had comments on the Scottish referendum. On the verge of a momentous election that everybody is aware of, we are talking here about the fact that people in Kashmir generally mistrust politicians. We have that here as well. Some of those people may seek to vote UKIP; some north of the border may seek to vote SNP. Whatever it is, there is a general anti-politics move sweeping across the world.

It is important we put these things in context. Anyone who has been fortunate enough to visit Kashmir will know that it is a beautiful country. It is striking and wonderful in its geography and in its people. In my travels through India and in the middle east, when I spoke to people they all mentioned the same thing, whatever their background. They want to live in an environment that is conducive to raising a family securely and to having financial security and independence, and where they can reach their full potential. Those are natural human desires that will be shared by people on either side of the political border and of any geographical border. I am mindful that we, as British parliamentarians, keep that point at the forefront of our minds.

I am not here as an apologist for India or to put just the Indian side. Indeed, my family hail from Punjab, which has seen its fair share of suffering on this issue. We should be mindful, in any contribution we make, of the basic fact I alluded to earlier: we have some historical imperial baggage on this. I referred to the historical fact that we are here on the 13th anniversary of 9/11. When we make our contributions from a western perspective, we can often be in error. In fact, in the backlash that followed 9/11 two of the people killed by American citizens aggrieved by what had happened were Sikhs; they had beards and turbans, and the people who killed them had no idea. We should have more faith in the ability of people on the Indian subcontinent to build those bridges. From everything I have seen when I have met people on the Indian subcontinent, I know that their faith and compassion towards one another is huge. Yes, it is not a state of nirvana; yes, it is not perfect. However, I believe that everybody involved in this dispute has the capability to build those bridges and build a positive future.

One of my grandfather’s favourite sayings about politicians is, “When you meet them, they are incredibly smart people. The problem with smart people is they tend to think everyone else is incredibly stupid.” We should not fall into that mistake.

--- Later in debate ---

[Gregory Barker (Bexhill and Battle) (Con)]

I shall be relatively brief, not least because so much of what I wanted to say in this debate has already been expressed far more eloquently than I could hope to do. I am also chided by my hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton South West (Paul Uppal), as I am a white, middle-aged male—

[Paul Uppal]

I would not say middle-aged.

[Gregory Barker]

I would not say middle-aged either, but I get the gist.

Over many years in the House I have had the great pleasure of listening to a number of speeches by the hon. Member for Brent North (Barry Gardiner), and I must say that the one he gave today was the best I have ever heard from him, not least because he quoted so approvingly a great Tory philosopher and statesman. If he wants to improve the tone of his speeches in the Chamber more generally, perhaps he should quote approvingly great historical Tory figures at greater length in future.

I understand the emotions that this debate has given rise to. Everyone present agrees that, wherever in the world and by whomever they are committed, human rights abuses will never be condoned by anyone in the House. We all want Kashmir to live in peace and prosperity.

However, there is a difference between us. There are those who are much more concerned that the British legacy in India means that we should tread much more carefully in seeking to express views on, let alone intervene in, the internal politics of that great democracy, and there are those who seem to presume that we have some enduring legacy that gives us the right to interfere. British insertion into what I see as an explicitly domestic issue for India and Pakistan is deeply unhelpful. We should be mindful not to insert ourselves. With the greatest respect to my hon. Friend the Member for Burton (Andrew Griffiths), as much as I see no role for the United Kingdom, I see no role for the United States either.

Unlike many other people who have spoken in a very informed way this afternoon, I am not an expert on Jammu and Kashmir—I have visited India many times, but never that region. However, in my time in the Government, I was privileged to get to know a tremendous politician who is a former Chief Minister of Jammu and Kashmir, my former opposite number in the Indian Government under the previous Administration, Mr Farooq Abdullah. It is just wrong to pretend that people from Jammu and Kashmir are not playing a vibrant role in the life of the world’s biggest and greatest democracy.

I know that others have mentioned it already, but we must remind ourselves that the recently concluded Indian elections were the largest exercise in democracy in the history of the world: 550 million free Indians, including 7 million from Jammu and Kashmir, voted in peaceful elections and witnessed the orderly transition of power to a new Government with a new vision. We should not cease to celebrate that. As we look around at a globe with so many troubles and so much strife, we must ensure that we praise and single out a triumph of humanity such as democracy in India. Elections for the legislative assembly of the state of Jammu and Kashmir had a turnout of more than 61% in 2008, which is significantly higher than in presidential elections in the United States. I expect that the turnout will be very substantial in the elections later this year.

It is worth reminding ourselves that the place we are discussing is not England. It is a beautiful part of the world, but it is very different. India’s land border with Pakistan in that state is 1,200 km long. Jihadi elements and terrorists are infiltrating into India from Pakistan as part of a terror campaign. The border is porous and must be protected. Soldiers are there not simply to intimidate but to protect the integrity of not only Jammu and Kashmir but the whole Indian nation, which has been subject to vile terrorist attacks, just like we have in the west and in the UK. Obviously, on 9/11 we remember in particular the attacks on the United States. It is important that wherever democracies stand up against terrorism around the world, we stand shoulder to shoulder with them.

I do not want to labour my points any further. Although I understand that Members wish to speak up in defence of their constituents and articulate their concerns, particularly those of constituents who are of Kashmiri origin, we must nevertheless look forward, not back. We must be mindful of India in the 21st century, rather than look back to a role that we may have played in the 20th century. We in Westminster should concern ourselves with forging a new relationship that looks firmly to the future, not with the internal affairs of that great democracy.