Commercial Rent (Coronavirus) Bill (First sitting)

Paul Scully Excerpts

Committee stage
Tuesday 7th December 2021 Public Bill Committees

[Seema Malhotra]

Q Mr Curran, do you have any additional comments to make on those areas, and do you feel confident that the scheme as outlined will work in practice?

Dominic Curran: The British Retail Consortium, in the call for evidence that the Government published last spring, did call for a scheme that extended the moratorium to a future date and ringfenced the protection of the arrears that arose during the process, and it called for a process of compulsory arbitration. At least at headline level and in terms of the core principles of the Bill, this is what we have called for and what our members want. We do welcome it.

We have a slight concern about the definition of a business tenancy. The Bill appears to suggest that it is only a tenancy that is not contracted out of the Landlord and Tenant Act 1954. We have been assured by officials in separate meetings that that is not the intention of the Bill and that actually the Bill covers any tenancy that would be within the scope of the 1954 Act, whether it is contracted out or not, which does give us some comfort. That might be an area you would want to clarify in the course of scrutiny of the Bill.

Engagement with officials and Ministers has been fantastic, actually, throughout the pandemic and through the drafting of the Bill. We have a similar concern to UK Hospitality about the approach that will be taken on viability. Some of the definitions that the Government have said they do not want to enshrine in legislation—which is, I suppose, understandable—will be left to guidance for arbitrators. More than ever, the devil will be in the detail on that. We would want to see what that guidance is as soon as possible to give as much clarity as possible to businesses that might be thinking about using this route.

We would want to make sure that that guidance also directed arbitrators to take as broad a concept of viability and affordability as possible, so that there is enough understanding of a business’s circumstances that they could build in an allowance for the uncertainty of future cash flow and turnover, not least because there will be tax rises coming from April onwards when this process will effectively kick in—both higher businesses rates liabilities for many businesses and further tax increases on Business Network International contributions. We would want to see as much certainty in advance as possible and as much understanding of the need for businesses to have a buffer to enable them to trade while all these adverse headwinds are hitting them. We certainly share some of the concerns of UK Hospitality. I think the approach taken on fees is exactly right, as Kate outlined. While there may be a nominal, reasonable amount to enter the arbitration process, we would want the process to be as straightforward as possible, particularly for smaller businesses, which will not have access to in-house or agency consultants to support them through the process, so that it really is open to all and seen as fair and equitable.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (Paul Scully)]

Q Can you give us an idea from the retail perspective of how significant the problem of rent arrears still is?

Dominic Curran: I think it is less of a problem than it is for UK Hospitality. That is not to say that it is not a problem, but I think retail rent collection levels are higher than hospitality, as you would expect, given that the retail sector includes businesses that were allowed to open throughout the pandemic, particularly grocery and pharmacy businesses, so turnover has probably been higher proportionately in retail than it has been for hospitality.

I think it affects a smaller proportion of our sector in terms of the quantum of rent arrears, but it is still significant. It is estimated that there are still several billions of outstanding rent arrears in the retail sector during the pandemic period that the Bill covers, as far as we know. Some of that surveying does not take account of agreements that will have been reached off the books, as it were, or outside the formal rent collection dates, so it is an uncertain figure. When we have spoken to members, and this is an informed guesstimate rather than a thorough survey, it feels like we are at about 80% to 90% of rent having been collected and deals having been done, so it is a very small proportion of the outstanding rent liabilities that is left to be resolved. With each extension of the moratorium every three months, as we have seen over the past year and a half, and particularly with the announcement of this Bill and the process that it proposes, we have seen that percentage chipped away. Ever more landlords and tenants are reaching agreements. While it is a significant problem, it is probably less of a problem than it is for UK Hospitality, but it is still really important that even if businesses do not take advantage of the arbitration process, that process is there—if for no other reason than to help chivvy both landlords and tenants into making new arrangements.

[Paul Scully]

Q The code of practice will remain an important part of the solution. How has it helped over the past few months

Dominic Curran: In all honesty, members report that the code of practice did not aid them particularly. Its voluntary nature was the real sticking point. It was not necessarily the content, which was developed in very deep and meaningful consultation with us, UK Hospitality and other interested parties, but it was the fact that it was voluntary that was the sticking point. Because it was good practice, those who were going to use that approach did so anyway, almost regardless of the code’s existence, and those who were not going to use the approach did not feel like the code applied to them, because there were no sanctions on the requirement to negotiate in line with it.

What has helped—in so far as people are aware of it—is the suggestion, and Kate alluded to it, that if you do not negotiate in line with the principles of the previous code and the revised code, there may be some penalty in terms of costs being awarded against you in any subsequent arbitration process. That may help focus minds somewhat.

[Paul Scully]

Q Do you think signifying that we are legislating has helped move things on significantly? Have people priced this in to their discussions now?

Dominic Curran: I would not be able to say significantly, but certainly anecdotally speaking to members, yes, it has helped.

Kate Nicholls: I agree with what Dominic said. The code of practice content was really helpful, and it gave a steer towards negotiations and how you should negotiate in good faith. A mandatory backstop and a legislative backstop are absent. It was limited in its impact in bringing recalcitrant players to the table. When Ministers announced that they were intending to legislate, a third of our businesses still had no negotiations and a large amount of outstanding debt, with no agreement as to how that was to be treated. That has dropped from a third to 20% and it keeps getting chipped away every time we move further forward in the legislative process.

The introduction of the legislative backstop is really important. The code of practice principles will be important to guide discussions for those businesses that fall outside the legislative solution, because obviously there will be parts of the business that will not be covered by the arbitration process. It is about giving the legislative backstop and the clearer direction towards sharing the pain, coming to a negotiated solution and being able to support what would otherwise be viable businesses.

The ministerial forewords in the legislation and the call for evidence are immeasurably helpful in giving a clear direction that landlords should do whatever they can to support businesses that would otherwise be viable. That was the piece that was missing from the code of practice that gives a clearer steer of the intent of the legislation.

[Paul Scully]

Fantastic. Thank you very much.

[Ruth Cadbury (Brentford and Isleworth) (Lab)]

Q We have had evidence of concerns about the arbitration scheme—for example, whether there should be a single approved arbitration body and about the difference compared with other arbitration schemes in how the agreement is reached as to which arbitrator should be used. There is a concern that they should be legally qualified rather than just businesspeople, because of the nature of complex arbitration processes. There is also a question about confidentiality, which is the norm in such processes but is not specified in the Bill. Mr Curran, do you have any comments on those issues?

Dominic Curran: On the arbitrators who will be used, the Bill says, if I remember it correctly, that the Secretary of State will nominate or choose which arbitrating bodies will be eligible to provide arbitrators to the process, so it remains a bit of an open question. All I would say—having spoken to officials, this point is well understood and well heard—is that given the nature of the discussions that inevitably will be had during the arbitration process, we would prefer to see arbitrators who have a strong accountancy background, perhaps more so, or at least as much as, those who have a property conflict resolution background.

The nature of the process is to look at tenants’ accounts and to make sure that their income, liabilities and forecasts for turnover are such that they can pay a relevant and viable proportion of their rent arrears. So rather than it being a dispute over the interpretation of a lease or the duties of a tenant or a landlord, it should really be about understanding the finances of that business and enabling it to pay a proportion of rent between 0% and 100%, while being able to continue to trade viably at the same time. We certainly want to see the accountancy profession well represented in that.

Whether any other trade bodies, beyond those that represent accountants, are given the right to carry out the process by the Secretary of State remains to be seen. If you wanted to get the confidence of businesses that are tenants, however, you would want to make sure that you had accountants rather than property dispute arbitrators fulfilling the duty.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Chair]

We have a sound issue, Ms Leech. Hold on one second.

Melanie Leech: Can you hear me now? I will abandon the headphones. Apologies. Our view is that for the larger, more complex relationships, this scheme should not be the way forward. They should be taken as they would have been before the pandemic. Outside the confines of the ringfencing of this scheme, that will be through the courts. These are, ultimately, legal relationships, and the courts are there to resolve legal disputes. I think the scheme can work well for smaller businesses and less complex relationships, but for those larger, more complex relationships, redress should be through the courts, as it always was and will be again outside the confines of the scheme.

[Paul Scully]

Q I have a similar question to that I asked the last panel. From what you were saying, I think you agree that the legislation will be able to bring certainty to landlords. I know it is not a comfortable position to be in, with intervention in, effectively, a private contract, but it will give you some degree of certainty in the sense that you are pricing it into your thinking moving forward.

Melanie Leech: I think what is really important, not only for the individual property owners in the sector but for the market, the health of the sector and the future—I go back to that £1.2 billion GVA that we create every year—is that certainty that you, the Government, understand the importance of contracts as part of what makes UK real estate an attractive investment proposition for pension funds, saving funds and those institutional long-term investors. When we talk about property owners, that is largely who we are talking about. We are talking about our money as individuals, our pensions and savings. In order to protect them appropriately in these circumstances and to secure the future—particularly thinking about the levelling-up agenda, for example, and the investment that will be needed across the country—it was really important that, as part of this announcement, the Government made clear that, if tenants can afford to pay their rent, they should pay their rent in full, and that this scheme is designed to support and facilitate agreement being reached between tenants that are vulnerable and need support and property owners that can afford to give that support. That builds on what has already happened in the market, where millions of pounds of support has already been provided to the most vulnerable tenants. That underlying principle protects the sanctity of the contract for the long term and protects UK real estate as an investment proposition, which we badly need in this country, while also allowing the outstanding cases in which agreement has not been reached to have some kind of resolution.

[Paul Scully]

Thank you. Astrid, same question to you.

Astrid Cruickshank: I have to say that I think it is quite unfortunate that we need this system at all. I try to speak to all my tenants. I have four who just point-blank refuse to engage. I knew a finance director prior to covid who was always happy to take my call, so it was somewhat disappointing to find, when trying to speak to them to try to agree a way forward, that they just will not engage. I have to say that I have been able to unlock mine now, so unless there are further lockdowns—fingers crossed—I will not need to avail myself of this. I have stuck with the consultation process because I think it is important that there is a voice from a small landlord. People tend to assume all landlords are enormous, and I wanted to make the point that that is not the case.

[Paul Scully]

That point is very well made as well. Thank you.

[Mark Eastwood (Dewsbury) (Con)]

Q I have a question for Melanie. Some landlords have argued that a binding arbitration system would favour the tenant over the landlord. What is the view of the BPF on that?

Melanie Leech: I hope that a binding arbitration scheme will be a neutral process that allows both sides’ views to be heard and a resolution to be reached between those two positions. As I said in response to the Minister, the principles should be that someone who can pay their rent should pay it, but if they can demonstrate that they need support, because they cannot afford to pay their rent, that case should be heard, and a landlord who is able offer support should give it. I think those principles, if they remain in place and underpin the scheme, should lead to a fair outcome.

The other thing we have concerns about—although I think the process is designed to avoid this—is that it is not a case of both parties starting in an equal position. We start from the position that there is a contract that says that the tenant should pay rent, and the tenant is seeking support to set aside that contractual obligation. The evidence base is primarily driven by the tenant’s position; I have heard concerns that if a landlord wants to go into the arbitration process, they need evidence from the tenant to underpin their position, and, if the tenant does not provide that evidence, the landlord is at a disadvantage in the process.

The process is designed to deal with that by allowing them to initiate the process from a starting position that says the tenant should pay in full. If the tenant gives evidence to demonstrate why they need a concession, the landlord can consider that and put in a revised proposal before getting to arbitration. As long as that is in place, the landlord need not be disadvantaged by not having the information up front. It is important to recognise that the burden of proof for both viability and affordability is primarily on the tenant; it is only at the stage at which the tenant’s case is made, as it were, that the question of whether the landlord can afford to give a concession comes into play, at which time they also need to provide evidence. I think that the Government understand that, and that it is built into the process. That is one of the things that property owners will be nervous about.

--- Later in debate ---

[Peter Dowd]

Q Would you welcome further, more detailed discussions with the Department on these matters? It is important that we try to get this right, because we do not want to create more problems down the line. I think we have been here before in relation to those people who are regulated—whether that be social workers, doctors or nurses—so it is important that we get that right. Would you welcome more significant or more substantive discussions with the Department about how this should pan out?

Lewis Johnston: I would welcome more detail on exactly what the approval criteria would be and what the role of the approved suppliers under the scheme would be. There has been a good degree of engagement from the Department so far, but what the criteria would be has not yet been published. However, I know that they are coming shortly. That will be the crucial point in terms of assessing what the role of these appointing arbitration bodies would be.

[Paul Scully]

Q In the last sitting, Melanie Leech expressed concern about having a system like this set up for small landlord and tenant issues, compared with some of the bigger and more complex ones. How do you think arbitration services could cater for both sides?

Lewis Johnston: I understand the intention is that it would be the simpler, perhaps smaller party cases going through to the scheme, and I think that is correct. Given that the emphasis is on simplicity, accessibility and managing the costs, any scheme that had to accommodate the intricate, large-scale cases would encounter some problems in terms of balancing the two. Again, I point to precedents with things like the business arbitration scheme. It is difficult at this point to assess exactly what the appropriate fee level would be, because you would have to properly assess exactly how much work will be involved in each case—obviously not until they had come through—but I think that in the simpler cases that could be set at a level that was affordable. As some of Melanie’s members had made clear, it needed to be at quite a modest level for it to be accessible to them.

In terms of how the arbitration bodies would manage a variation in the complexity of cases, even it was perhaps the smaller, more simpler end of the spectrum, there will still be variation. We would maintain—this would apply to other bodies as well—lists and databases of arbitrators who would be suitable. Based on the nature of the case that came through, there would be a shortlist drawn up based on who had the requisite skill sets to handle that case. The pool that we would draw from should be broad enough to be able to cater to different types of cases and different sectors and so on.

[Sara Britcliffe]

Q In the simple case that you talked about, from your perspective what is the likely cost of that, including the legal fees of the tenants and landlords?

Lewis Johnston: I would not want to commit to exactly what it would involve until we got to that stage, but I refer again to the precedent set by our own business arbitration service, which is designed to produce an award within 90 days. It is meant to be documents only, and that is £1,250 plus VAT per party. If it was a very straightforward case—if it was documents only and it followed the same processes—I imagine it could be in the same ballpark in terms of fee level. The best thing would be to have real clarity around what the fees were and how they apply to each case, and for there to be perhaps an assumption against having a hearing, and, if there was a hearing to be requested, very clear guidance on what fee that would entail. Perhaps for a half-day hearing, a certain level. For the business arbitration scheme, there is an option for that. It is £500 for a half-day hearing. Again, the assumption is that the cost could be fixed at those initial costs per party, and that a hearing would not be necessary. It would be documents only.