Savings Accounts and Health in Pregnancy Grant Bill

Paul Goggins Excerpts

Monday 22nd November 2010 Commons Chamber

[John Hemming]

I cannot confirm precisely what is being done in the care system. I am not a Minister; I have never been in a ministerial car and I have no interest in putting my derrière inside one. I happen to be a Back-Bench Member of my party who is very supportive of the Government’s strategy of being cost-effective and of using public funds in the most effective way, particularly to look after the most vulnerable members of society. The simple point, on which I shall end if there are no more interventions, is that it is insane to spend £7 million to give people £2 million.

[Paul Goggins (Wythenshawe and Sale East) (Lab)]

Let me begin by complimenting my right hon. Friend the Member for Delyn (Mr Hanson) and, indeed, all my hon. Friends for their sterling work on the Bill and exposing clearly its impact on looked-after children and children from all backgrounds. My right hon. Friend said that he wanted to be helpful and conciliatory. I have worked with him for many years and I thought he was very helpful and conciliatory this afternoon. I want to adopt the same approach regarding amendments 51 and 52, which stand in my name. They would place a duty on the Chancellor to report, by the end of 2011, on two things: the impact of clause 1 on looked-after children, and the take-up rate of tax-free savings accounts for looked-after children. Admittedly, this is in its early stages because we do not have the details on the child ISA that have been promised.

Whatever divisions there are in the House, we should always try to reach consensus on our obligations and duties in relation to looked-after children. We should not be divided on that and should constantly seek answers that we can all agree on and that clearly show we are prepared to meet our obligations. Whatever other motives might be attributed to the Minister in bringing the Bill to the House, I do not believe that he came here intending to cause children in care any harm. I believe that the impact the Bill will have on looked-after children is a genuinely unintended consequence. Equally, however, if it is enacted without steps having been taken to ensure that looked-after children are not disadvantaged by its measures, the Government—indeed, all of us—will have failed to meet our obligations.

The Minister has said on several occasions that he wants the new junior, or child, ISA to be the replacement for the child trust fund, which might have merit—I shall not discuss this in too much detail. That policy might well make sense for the child who has a parent who can afford to set up and contribute to an ISA, but for the child who does not have a parent or who does not have a parent who is in a position to invest on his or her behalf, it is meaningless. It is therefore essential to establish in the Bill the principle that the Government should open and make suitable contributions to a child ISA when a child is in care for a reasonable length of time. For me, that is a fundamental principle. I will be listening carefully to the Minister’s response, because its nature and content will be important when I decide whether to press the amendment to a Division.

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[Cathy Jamieson]

Does my right hon. Friend agree that that would also give young people themselves the opportunity to understand the value of saving and perhaps make some contributions themselves, which hitherto they may have been unable to do?

[Paul Goggins]

My hon. Friend makes an important point. If a looked-after child aged 16 or 17, perhaps studying and working part time, was in a position to make a modest contribution to their own fund, that would be a good thing. Looked-after children have to be more resilient than any other people in our society, so it would be good for them to learn about the importance of managing money and planning ahead through the medium of that child ISA or a savings account to which they and others may contribute. That could make them even more resilient, and looking back to the time when I worked with such young people, the opportunity to sit down with them and work out their money management would have been a great way to do it. I think that that suggestion has great merit, and if the young person could also contribute, that would be a very good thing too.

My proposal would require the Government to open accounts for about 20,000 looked-after children each year. With additional top-ups of £100 for those who remain in care for a year or more, as I have described, we are talking about a total annual sum of some £6.6 million. We can argue about whether child trust funds are a sensible way to spend half a billion pounds, and the Government have taken a view that is different from that taken by my right hon. Friend the Member for Delyn and those of us on the Labour Benches, but I put it to the House that a scheme that would deliver a savings account for every looked-after child in the UK who had been in care for more than three months, at a cost of less than £7 million, would be a good way to spend public money. The young person would get the money when they were 18. It could be an important part of care planning, as I said in response to my hon. Friend the Member for Kilmarnock and Loudoun, and would promote resilience. It would send a clear and strong message to the young people concerned that we owe them an obligation and are prepared to support them in a practical way.

I hope that the Minister will provide a positive response not only to the precise content of my amendments, but to the proposal in general and the need to do something, either here or in another place, that will put in the Bill something tangible for looked-after children. What I propose is modest, but it could make a real difference. If the Minister is prepared to act and make that clear, that would be good news for looked-after children. It would demonstrate that, whatever differences there are in this place over the Bill, when it comes to looked-after children we are prepared to sink those differences and do something together.

[Paul Maynard (Blackpool North and Cleveleys) (Con)]

I am grateful for the opportunity to pass comment on the Opposition’s continued attempts to retain child trust funds. I am struck, in particular, by the nature of their opposition: rather than concentrating on the effectiveness or otherwise of child trust funds as savings vehicles, they appear to have reduced their argument to one about generic usefulness. There seems to be a growing objection to abolishing child trust funds, because somehow the Opposition have inadequate confidence in the junior ISAs or child ISAs that are due to replace them. That is particularly concerning.

I remind those Members who sat on the Public Bill Committee with me, and inform those who did not, of a quote from the director general of the Building Societies Association, Mr Adrian Coles, who said:

“let us not pretend that we need to rely on the Government or the public sector to do all of this. The 49 building societies and other mutuals offer about 100 children’s savings accounts in the free market, which have been pretty successful over the years”.––[Official Report, Savings Accounts and Health in Pregnancy Grant Bill Public Bill Committee, 2 November 2010; c. 26, Q67.]

I know that in Committee concerns were expressed that the customers who take out ISAs might be the more affluent or the more elderly. It was made clear at the time that 12 million people on incomes under £20,000 have ISAs, and that 40% of them are under the age of 44, compared with just 20% who are over the age of 64, so any concerns that younger families are not sharing in ISAs are unfounded.

I was particularly concerned when I heard continued doubts about the ability of families on lower incomes to cope with the financial complexity of an ISA. We need to trust people. A great deal of work is going into financial education—an increasing amount. It is a trend initiated by the previous Government, and I congratulate them on that. We are building on it, so we can have confidence in ISAs as a potential future savings vehicle.

Another reason for opposing the abolition of the child trust fund was the impact that that could have on the needs of families with disabled children. I was shocked by one of the statements by the shadow Minister, the right hon. Member for Delyn (Mr Hanson), when he said that

“the proposal for providing 8,000 week-long respite breaks each year for disabled children in England . . . trivialises the nature of the child trust fund”.––[Official Report, Savings Accounts and Health in Pregnancy Grant Public Bill Committee, 9 November 2010; c. 228.]

I found that a disquieting comment. I do not regard respite breaks for children as trivial in any way, shape or form.

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[Mr Hoban]

Indeed, the tax models for ISAs and pensions are different. With an ISA, the income and gains are tax-exempt, which is one of their incentives.

I believe that child trust fund eligibility should end for children born from January 2011, as the Bill provides, and not from any other date. I continue to believe that ending eligibility is the right thing to do. I know that some find that disappointing, but in the middle of the exceptional fiscal challenge that we are facing, it simply does not make sense to continue to spend half a billion pounds a year on giving people money that is locked up until the age of 18. There are more urgent priorities, and the child trust fund is a luxury that we cannot afford.

I wish now to refer to the amendments tabled by the right hon. Member for Wythenshawe and Sale East and the wider points raised in his new clause and amendment that were not selected. I understand his point about looked-after children, who are among the most disadvantaged young people in our society and face a number of particular challenges that mean they need additional support. As he said, we met last week to discuss the matter, and he outlined to me the proposal that he has referred to today. As I said then, I have a lot of sympathy with what he is trying to achieve, and I want to consider the matter more closely. Indeed, I have already written to the Under-Secretary of State for Education, my hon. Friend the Member for East Worthing and Shoreham (Tim Loughton), to ask his views on the proposal. We will have to consider it carefully, but as I have said a number of times during debates on the Bill, we have limited resources at the moment and there is currently no unallocated funding in the Department for Education budget that could be used for the suggested payments. We would also have to be sure that they were the best use of our resources and gave us the best possible value for money.

As I have said, there is also the question of whether locking up money for up to 18 years provides better value than spending it to support people now, and we need to ensure that we focus resources on our priorities. We will also have to consider what the proposal would leave children with. As the right hon. Member for Wythenshawe and Sale East explained, the provision would not be triggered until a child had been in care for at least 13 weeks, to avoid junior ISA accounts being opened for children who were in care for only a week or so. We know that, thankfully, most children are not in care for long periods. Of the children who left care in 2009-10, about 37% were in care for less than six months. I will therefore wish to consider how many children would receive accounts containing just the £250 Government payment that he suggests, and whether those accounts would necessarily provide good value.

However, as I have said, I am more than happy to continue to consider the proposal with my hon. Friend at the Department for Education, and I certainly commit to maintaining contact with the right hon. Member for Wythenshawe and Sale East. I reassure him that if we do want to move forward with his proposal or something similar, the Bill will not be the right vehicle for doing so. It may be possible to legislate on the matter alongside the provisions on junior ISAs, or even to introduce them without legislation. Not including them in the Bill does not close down our options.

I understood the right hon. Gentleman’s points on amendments 51 and 52, which were selected, but there are practical reasons not to accept them. First, as I have said, we are still looking closely at our options, and that may end up making the reports called for in those amendments unnecessary. Secondly, if we wanted such reports to be produced, requiring their completion by the end of 2011 would be too early. By then, child trust funds would only just have stopped being opened, as the last vouchers are not expected to expire until well into 2012, and junior ISAs would have been in place for only a few months.

Thirdly, I suggest that even if we did want to carry out the reports that the right hon. Gentleman suggests, we could do so without having them specified in the Bill. In fact, leaving them out of the Bill would provide us with more flexibility on both content and timing.

[Paul Goggins]

I am very grateful to the Minister for clearly giving very serious consideration to the points that I put to him at our meeting last week. He has clearly weighed them up carefully. I am grateful that he has already written to his colleague in the Department for Education.

The Minister will understand my slight concern that, notwithstanding the fact that he is going to consider my proposals seriously, the Bill will now go to the other place and—in fairly short order, he hopes—become an Act. With the Government’s majority, I am sure that will happen. I do not want the focus on the important issues that we have discussed to be lost, so will he make a commitment that as far as possible, they will be addressed as the Bill is considered in the other place?

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[Mr Hanson]

I am grateful to the Minister for his response to the debate. It is self-evident that I am disappointed with the fact that he wishes to continue to seek the abolition of the child trust fund. I did not expect him to accept amendments 1 and 4, both of which gave him an opportunity to stick to his manifesto commitments and save some remnant of the child trust fund.

I have some concerns about the Minister’s responses. I hope to encourage my noble Friends to return to the matter raised in amendment 17, because it is about ensuring that we do not have a hiatus between the abolition of the child trust fund and the establishment of the new child ISA. It simply gives the Minister an opportunity to reflect on the fact that he can delay the abolition for what may be only six or seven months to ensure that he does not have to backdate the child ISA and confuse parents. He can put a product in place and ensure that we know about it by the time of the abolition. I suspect that there will be further debates on the matter in another place, and I hope that amendments will be tabled there to support the aims behind amendment 17.

On the amendments tabled by my right hon. Friend the Member for Wythenshawe and Sale East (Paul Goggins), I am grateful that the Minister is continuing to discuss what we should do about looked-after children, who are a vulnerable group of individuals. I wish to ensure that he—[Interruption.] I hope that the Minister will listen to this point. He has just said to the House that he is in discussion with his colleagues in the Department for Education about how we deal with looked-after children. I am pleased about that, but I remind him that the current child trust fund is a UK-wide facility funded by the Treasury, which applies in the constituencies of my hon. Friends in Scotland and Northern Ireland as well as in mine in north Wales. If he just brings forward an England-only solution with the Department for Education, that will not satisfy my hon. Friends. I hope that he will reflect on the fact that the current child trust fund is a UK-wide provision for looked-after children. My right hon. Friend is trying to ensure that that is what it remains at a relatively low cost to looked-after children and the state. I do not expect my right hon. Friend to press his amendments, but I do expect the Minister, in the context of the discussions that we will have in another place, to look at a UK-wide solution, not a solution that simply involves him having discussions about England with his hon. Friend in the Department for Education.

[Paul Goggins]

In addition to the points made by the Minister, my right hon. Friend has raised a very serious issue. Any replacement provision for looked-after children would have to be UK-wide to be fair, so his point is clear. I share his thinking on whether I should press amendments 51 and 52 to a vote. When somebody with whom one has a disagreement reaches across and begins to come halfway, one probably does not poke them in the eye just at that moment. I am not tempted to press amendments 51 and 52 to a vote, but my right hon. Friend knows me well enough to know that, the Minister having made the commitment, I will be closely on his tail every inch of the way to make sure that he delivers something for looked-after children right across the United Kingdom.

Savings Accounts and Health in Pregnancy Grant Bill

Paul Goggins Excerpts

Tuesday 26th October 2010 Commons Chamber

[Mr Hoban]

The Labour party is clearly looking for more substance for its economic plan, and perhaps the hon. Lady’s idea of tackling the winter fuel payment is something that the shadow Chancellor will embrace. I look forward to hearing whether those on the Opposition Front Bench will decide to adopt her idea or dissociate themselves from it.

[Paul Goggins (Wythenshawe and Sale East) (Lab)]

The Minister is turning to support for the most disadvantaged. If there is one area that should unite all parts of this House, it is the welfare of looked-after children, most of whom arrive in care with nothing and leave care with nothing. If there is any group that needs to build up an asset base, it is children in care, yet the Minister is taking away at a stroke the possibility of building up an asset base by getting rid of the child trust fund. How can he, as a Minister, possibly justify his Government’s claim that they are protecting the most vulnerable, when he is robbing children in care?

[Mr Hoban]

I am turning to child trust funds, and I take on board the right hon. Gentleman’s point. As one of the consequences of our decision to scrap the child trust fund, we are using some of the money that we have saved to provide respite care for disabled children. We have thought carefully about the issues, and, frankly, the decisions are not easy to take. Our decision to scrap the child trust fund is important. It will enable us to deliver the pupil premium and the £2.5 billion package, which was recently announced, to support children from disadvantaged backgrounds. The right hon. Gentleman should look at the issue in the round rather than cherry-picking particular policy areas.

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[Paul Goggins]

Will the Minister give way?

[Mr Hoban]

I am sorry, but I need to make progress.

We are prioritising fairness and social mobility, providing sustained routes out of poverty for the poorest. While encouraging some of the poorest to build up savings can be seen as meeting those goals, in the tight fiscal position that we have inherited, it is better to invest more in education and health, which will have a greater immediate impact than building up assets.

[Mr Hoban]

The hon. Lady should have taken the opportunity to ask her colleagues that when they introduced tuition fees and the child trust fund in the previous Parliament. The situation is not new, and I am sure that she has discussed the matter with her colleagues.

[Paul Goggins]

rose—

[Mr Hoban]

As we tackle the deficit, one of our priorities is to transform the prospects of the poorest children.

[Paul Goggins]

Will the Minister give way?

[Mr Hoban]

I will not. The Opposition spokesman, the right hon. Member for Delyn (Mr Hanson), wants to speak in the debate and needs to be free from this place at 6.30 pm, so I will continue my speech.

[Paul Goggins]

rose—

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)]

Order. Mr Goggins, you are going to have to sit down. The Minister is not giving way. I know that you are trying to catch his attention, but you cannot stand up for five minutes waving your hands. You have got to get used to being back on the Back Benches.

[Mr Hoban]

I was not sure whether he was waving or drowning, Mr Deputy Speaker.

As we tackle the deficit, one of our priorities is to transform the prospects of the poorest children, who need it the most, through the schools pupil premium which will be worth £2.5 billion by—

[Paul Goggins]

On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. Is it in order for the Minister consistently to refuse to take an intervention from someone who has already pursued a specific issue and wishes, in the light of something that the Minister has said since, to take up that issue with him in a constructive manner?

[Mr Deputy Speaker]

That is not a point of order. I understand your frustration but the Minister, in fairness, has been generous to many colleagues. Unfortunately, you have been very unlucky in not catching his eye, but I am sure that, if he were generous, he just might spot you standing once more.

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[Mr Hanson]

One of the great benefits of the child trust fund was that it encouraged people on lower incomes to save, it gave a kick-start to their savings accounts and it helped them to get into the habit of saving. The change that the Minister has made will mean that those people who can save will save, and those who are not used to saving, do not have the resources to save or are not part of that savings culture, will not save. That will impact, in due course, on the inequalities of people in their 18th year.

[Paul Goggins]

rose—

[Mr Hanson]

Before I give way to my right hon. Friend, let me say that one of the most disgraceful things will be the fact that the Government are taking child trust fund contributions from children who have no parents, who are in care, who need the support of the state to reach their 18th birthday—who will need that kick-start in due course. I am sure that is the point that my right hon. Friend was going to make.

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[Paul Goggins]

I am very grateful indeed to my right hon. Friend for giving way. [Hon. Members: “Hear, hear.”] He has been very generous, as was the Minister until, for some unknown reason, he declined to take interventions towards the end of his speech. My right hon. Friend may remember that in an intervention I raised the issue of looked-after children. After that, the Minister announced, although he did not go into too much detail, the new tax-free savings account for children. Does my right hon. Friend think it would help if we knew how looked-after children might be able to benefit from the new scheme that the Minister just announced?

[Mr Hanson]

Perhaps the Minister can tell us that in his winding-up speech, because clearly, looked-after children, children in care, would have had a contribution to the child trust fund, which would have helped them, on leaving care at the age of 18, to start a life without parental support. That is an important contribution that this Government have taken away from looked-after children.

[Paul Goggins]

To be constructive: there may be opportunities for local authorities, for charitable trusts, for other people in the community, to contribute to funds set up in the name and for the benefit of looked-after children. Will they be able to benefit from this new tax-free savings account? I do not know, because the Minister would not take my intervention and answer the question.

[Mr Hanson]

I hope I can assure my right hon. Friend that as we have eight sittings in Committee, I will table amendments on some of those issues. Indeed, I can even offer him a chance to serve, should he so wish, on the Public Bill Committee in due course.