Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Patricia Gibson and Kelly Tolhurst

Monday 24th October 2022 Commons Chamber

[Kelly Tolhurst]

I can confirm that the SEND and AP Green Paper—the SEND review—was not and is not an opportunity for us to reduce the support that children with special educational needs require in this country. As I have already outlined, we have increased our high-needs funding by 13% to £9.1 billion, and we have also designed a package to support the delivery of any of our reforms. That is a £70 million programme that will test and refine measures in order to ensure that children get the support and education they need, and that parents feel that they have a choice in the matter and are well supported.

[Patricia Gibson (North Ayrshire and Arran) (SNP)]

T1. If he will make a statement on his departmental responsibilities.

Consumer Rights Act 2015 and Consumer Ombudsman Scheme

Debate between Patricia Gibson and Kelly Tolhurst

Tuesday 11th February 2020 Westminster Hall

[Kelly Tolhurst]

I thank the hon. Lady for her intervention and note her particular interest in the area as chair of the all-party parliamentary group. As I will come on to say, we are committed to making the process easier for consumers to get redress. I hope that the response to the Green Paper, and the Command Paper that we expect to publish later in the spring, will give her some confidence in that area.

ADR is not mandatory for the furniture and home furnishings sector, where the furniture ombudsman provides dispute resolution services. The furniture ombudsman is a highly regarded service, but it can only offer its services when businesses join the scheme. I understand that in the case highlighted by the hon. Member for Linlithgow and East Falkirk, the furniture retailer in question had not joined the furniture ombudsman. That is why it was unable to help his constituent, Ms Johnston, leaving the courts as her only route to redress at the cost of much distress to her.

[Patricia Gibson]

The Minister has conceded that the problem is that not all ombudsmen are equal, so what we need to do is level up. She will be aware of calls to refer the entire ombudsman landscape to the Law Commission to sort it out. How does she respond to that?

[Kelly Tolhurst]

As I have suggested, much work has gone on since the Green Paper was launched. We have looked at these things, and our intention is to publish a Command Paper in the spring. In my role as Minister, I have been particularly focused on addressing consumer detriment wherever it exists and ensuring that consumers can get redress.

A key question that Government asked in the consumer Green Paper was whether there should be an automatic right for consumers to access ADR. In some sectors where participation is not mandatory, the volume and value of disputes have been high, but business take-up has been low. The Government are particularly keen to see a higher rate of business participation in sectors where there are significant levels of consumer complaints. Since the consumer Green Paper was published, my officials have been working closely with consumers, businesses and dispute resolution groups to develop practical and pragmatic solutions to increase the use of ADR.

I have taken a close interest in the work of the all-party parliamentary group on consumer protection and its helpful reports on ombudsmen, which looked at the effectiveness of ombudsmen from the consumer perspective. Those reports have provided valuable insights and proposals that have helped to inform our work.

My Department has announced its intention to publish a Command Paper in the spring of this year. In that Command Paper, we will bring forward a package of reform to make it easier and quicker for consumers to use ADR services. It will also cover ways in which we can strengthen our public enforcement system to tackle consumer rip-offs.

In the context of this debate, Members may be interested to know that the Government will carry out a five-year post-implementation review of the Consumer Rights Act 2015 later this year. The Act introduced some important new rights, such as rights to protect consumers buying digital content, including music and online games. The review will consider, among other things, whether the legislation has met its objectives.

When competitive markets are working well, consumers should be able to resolve most problems for themselves. Companies should be incentivised by a desire to win and maintain custom and promote their reputation. An important part of that is ensuring that consumers are satisfied and that disputes are resolved appropriately. I believe that alternative dispute resolution plays a significant role in supporting consumers to resolve complaints against traders. It is worth reflecting that more than 2.5 million disputes have been resolved through ADR in the past six years. BEIS research has found that 80% of consumers who used ADR thought that their problem would not have been resolved without it.

I recognise that the system is not working as well as it might. I assure Members that I am committed to making the system more effective, with better access. Through the forthcoming consumer and competition Command Paper, we will be closely examining the areas of the dispute resolution landscape that are not working for consumers and laying out our proposals for reform. Respondents will be able to comment on them and present evidence regarding the effectiveness of consumer redress mechanisms, including the role of ombudsmen and alternative dispute resolution provision, before the Government take any final decisions on the scope and nature of reform.

Again, I offer my sincere thanks to the hon. Member for Linlithgow and East Falkirk for securing this debate and highlighting the case of his constituent. I am sure it will resonate with many who are watching this debate. We know how stressful it can be for our constituents throughout the United Kingdom to try to get simple redress. I thank Members for taking part, and I look forward to updating them in the spring when we launch the paper.

Question put and agreed to.

Electrical Products: Online Sales

Debate between Patricia Gibson and Kelly Tolhurst

Tuesday 9th July 2019 Westminster Hall

[Kelly Tolhurst]

When we are talking about such a wide brief as consumer product safety, there will always be pressures on budgets, but the OPSS is working with local trading standards, with scientific, technical support. It is providing support, through training, to trading standards, to enable local authorities to carry out the job that they have been tasked with doing.

The hon. Member for Swansea East asked a direct question about Whirlpool and the published list of recalled models, and I want to address that straight off. If products on the recall list are being sold on online platforms, that is absolutely wrong, and I will instruct our officials to ensure that those online platforms are made aware of those products, and that the products are withdrawn, as I have outlined. The hon. Lady will appreciate, because she knows this area very well, that this is ongoing work. Market surveillance—the identification of illegal and unsafe products—is not a job done today or tomorrow, with one list. Market surveillance is ongoing, and is how we continue to protect consumers. It is right that our policy and research evolves. This is work that we do independently as a Government to ensure that consumer safety is always our top focus.

[Patricia Gibson]

The Minister has talked about fines and punishments for people selling illegal or unsafe products online. Does the product safety and standards unit monitor particular sites, or does it wait for the public to make representations about them? I am interested to know how the sites operate and how they are monitored. Where does the intelligence about illegal or unsafe products come from?

[Kelly Tolhurst]

As part of the OPSS’s ongoing work, it has developed a database through which information is shared with online platforms when we are alerted to problems and particular safety concerns. That list is changing every day or every week, as new illegal products are registered. It is an ongoing piece of work, and part of what we are doing weekly to combat people who act illegally by putting illegal products on the market, and also to ensure that unsafe products that are being marketed are removed from sale. I have already outlined that this is a big challenge; it is something that the OPSS is very mindful of. That is why it is included in the first part of the workstream about understanding the extent to which such products are sold and how that can be moved forward.

A further strand of this work relates to online sales in second-hand electrical goods. OPSS is gathering evidence on the extent of the second-hand electrical goods market across the UK, so that it can provide advice to sellers on their responsibility when selling second-hand goods online.

Consumer Protection

Debate between Patricia Gibson and Kelly Tolhurst

Tuesday 11th June 2019 Commons Chamber

[Kelly Tolhurst]

The Government took a great step when they formed the OPSS in January 2018. The OPSS was given additional funding of £12 million a year to build national capacity for product safety. The expertise—the scientific-based research— that it will be able to undertake will aid and assist local trading standards in carrying out their own functions. This is very much a working-together situation. We have committed £190,000 to behavioural insights to date and invested £498,000 on social science research. Over the next three years, £4 million will be spent on upgrading the scientific facilities in Teddington, and £750,000 of support has been provided in 2018-19 for testing and training trading standards, and there is another £500,000 funding for trading standards to carry out product safety testing, and that will increase next year. We have also trained more than 250 trading standards authorities, which included training 800 people. Such training enables local trading standards to have free access to the technical British standards, which really equips them and supports them in identifying compliance issues.

Let me move on now to the issues raised by the hon. Member for North Ayrshire and Arran (Patricia Gibson). She was very concerned about funding, and as I have tried to outline, the OPSS will take a strategic role in supporting local trading standards. The statutory instrument ensures that we have a clear enforcement strategy, which gives the OPSS and the Secretary of State the powers that they need.

[Patricia Gibson]

Forgive me if the Minister has said this already and I have missed it, but given that the powers of the OPSS are to be strengthened, will there be an increase in personnel to support trading standards, and will the OPSS itself receive additional money—apart from the £12 million that it received when it was set up?

[Kelly Tolhurst]

The OPSS is ready. It is taking on not extra work, but an extra power, which it is quite ready to take on. I have already outlined what it has done in the case of Whirlpool.

I understand the concerns of the hon. Member for Washington and Sunderland West (Mrs Hodgson), and she is a great campaigner in this area. She will know that work is ongoing with regard to secondary ticketing. That matter is not related to this SI, but I am more than happy to speak with her directly outside the Chamber to give her some more assurances if that is what she wants.

I almost forgot the contribution of my hon. Friend the Member for Worthing West (Sir Peter Bottomley). I am grateful to him for raising those issues. We are looking at strengthening consumer protection, full stop. Perhaps we could meet. I have not spoken to him about this issue, but I am more than happy to meet him, so that we can investigate the matter further with the OPSS if necessary.

Without this order, we will not be maximising the potential of the new regulator. The British public would ultimately have less protection from unsafe and non-compliant products. Law-abiding businesses would have less protection in maintaining and growing their businesses and the UK economy, and that is not what this Government want. We are committed to making the UK product safety systems the best in the world, and ensuring that our regulators have the right tools to protect our people is a further step to achieving that goal Therefore, I commend this statutory instrument to the House.

Question put and agreed to.

Post Office Network

Debate between Patricia Gibson and Kelly Tolhurst

Thursday 25th April 2019 Westminster Hall

[Kelly Tolhurst]

If the hon. Gentleman would allow me the courtesy of getting to the content of my speech, that would be really useful. I am still at the start. We made a commitment in our 2017 manifesto and are committed to safeguarding the network. The Post Office is publicly owned and it is a commercial business operating in competitive markets. The Government set the strategic direction for the Post Office to maintain a national network, accessible to all, and to do so in a more sustainable way for the taxpayer. We allow the company the commercial freedom to deliver that strategy as an independent business.

I must point out some of the language and words used in the debate, such as “managed decline” and “undermining the network”, and the idea that it is ideological of the Tories to run down post office branches. As the Minister responsible for post offices, I find that incorrect and inaccurate. I do not regard Government investment of £2 billion over eight years as a so-called managed decline or undermining of the network, and I do not regard the establishment of 450 new locations since 2017 as managed decline or an undermining of the network. As hon. Members have outlined, at the end of March there were 11,547 branches. That number is as stable as it has been in many decades, so I refute those claims.

[Patricia Gibson]

I hear the Minister’s objection to the term managed decline, and that is fine. We are allowed to disagree with each other in this Chamber; we have that privilege. However, there is no plan in place in the—I think not unlikely—event that WHSmith completely collapses. It has declined over 14 years. Would she care to take that up?

[Kelly Tolhurst]

I thank the hon. Lady for her comment, but I highlight that WHSmith has been successfully running post office franchises since 2006. We are now in 2019, and the reality is that, in any franchising service and any business, work is always going on behind the scenes in regard to the management of the network. There is a massive network of 11,500 outlets throughout the country. As the Minister responsible, I will, quite rightly, challenge the Post Office on any issues I am told about. I am committed to maintaining that network.

I have highlighted that so early in my speech because ever since I have had this role I have been clear at the Dispatch Box and in any debate that I will talk to any MP about issues they have in their constituency about post office branches. I will also talk to anyone about the Post Office and take those issues forward to challenge it. I will also defend the Post Office when required.

--- Later in debate ---

[Kelly Tolhurst]

I am always happy to look at the details and where we can improve services if that is possible. I must point out that the post office network is long established and well loved. We love the people who work in our post office network: the sub-postmasters and the workers—[Interruption.] Hon. Members might heckle, but we do. The Government definitely do, and rightly so.

I have outlined this afternoon my personal commitment to the post office network, as we did in our manifesto, to see where we can improve it and where we can all work together to secure the future sustainability of a strong network throughout the country. There are challenges ahead, just as there are within retail. They are not insurmountable, but the challenge for us is to work with all of our stakeholders to tackle those and secure the network for the future.

The facts clearly show that the Post Office has made substantial progress over the past decade. The inhibiting cultural legacy of being a lesser partner to Royal Mail, with high public sector costs, has almost disappeared. As a business, Post Office Ltd is increasingly profitable and takes action to consolidate and defend its position in the market. Between 2010 and 2018, we backed the Post Office with nearly £2 billion to maintain and invest in a national network that had 11,547 post offices at the end of March. That extensive network gives the Post Office a unique reach among service providers. The Post Office currently meets and exceeds all the Government’s accessibility targets at a national level.

[Patricia Gibson]

I appreciate the amount of investment that the Minister is talking about; it is clearly a lot of money, although people might want a debate about whether it is enough. In spite of that investment, does the Minister understand the concerns raised today? In Scotland 22% of the entire post office network has closed over the past 15 years. Surely she, like me, laments that figure because of the scale of loss it represents.

[Kelly Tolhurst]

The hon. Lady is right to raise those concerns. She is also right that we are concerned about any particular closures that may happen, as is Post Office Ltd. That is why Post Office Ltd works hard—it always works hard—where there are unforeseen closures to make sure that those branches reopen. Since I have been in post there have been a number of examples where I and local MPs have worked with the post office network and local communities to make sure that new facilities are opened.

Where there have been closures, I would always encourage people to raise them with Ministers and to work with Post Office Ltd to make sure that we can sustain the network. The hon. Lady is right to have concerns, but she is wrong to say that the intention is not to renew those branches and not make sure that the network is stable in Scotland. There is a commitment and a desire to achieve that.

Government investment has also enabled the modernisation of over 7,500 branches, added more than 200,000 opening hours per week and established the Post Office as the largest network trading on Sundays. In terms of services provided, the Post Office’s agreement with the high street banks enables personal and business banking in all branches, ensuring that every community has appropriate access to cash and supporting consumers, businesses and local economies in the face of bank branch closures, particularly in rural and urban deprived areas. I encourage the House to look closely and objectively at these facts; they show unequivocally that the network is at its most stable and is much more sustainable today than in 2010.

We are not complacent. Post Office Ltd has to keep exploring new business opportunities to ensure a thriving national network for the benefit of communities, businesses and postmasters up and down the country. One of the most important and visible aspects of the Post Office strategy is its franchising programme. I accept that some communities have a strong emotional attachment to Crown post offices and naturally there will be concerns when proposals come forward to franchise their local branches, but our high streets are facing unprecedented challenges and the Post Office is not immune to them. Just like any other high street business, it needs to respond to these pressures and adapt to changing customer needs.

Franchising has reduced the taxpayer funding that the Post Office requires from Government, while maintaining—and, in some instances, improving—customer service levels. In fact, the report by Citizens Advice in 2017 indicated that franchised branches are performing in line with or better than traditional branches. I reassure hon. Members that, as part of its ongoing monitoring role, Citizens Advice will continue to track the impact of post office changes on consumers and on customer satisfaction in respect of post offices. Citizens Advice also has a formal advisory role in reviewing changes to Crown post offices across Great Britain that are relocated and franchised.

Serving rural communities is at the very heart of the Post Office’s social purpose. There are over 6,100 post offices in rural areas and virtually everyone living in such areas is within 3 miles of one of those branches. Last year, a study by Citizens Advice found that seven out of 10 rural consumers buy essential items at post offices and almost 3 million rural shoppers—that is, 31% of rural residents—visit a post office on a weekly basis, compared to 21% of people living in urban areas. The importance of post offices to rural areas is illustrated by the fact that almost half have community status. They are the last shops in the village, as hon. Members have outlined. Rural post office branches, whether main, local or traditional, can offer the same products and services as urban ones of the same category.

The Post Office recognises the unique challenge of running a community branch and supports those postmasters differently from those in the rest of the network. They receive fixed remuneration, as well as variable remuneration, to reflect their special situation. In addition, the Post Office delivered almost £10 million of investment via the Community Fund between 2014 and 2018. That enabled community branches to invest in their associated retail business. The Post Office has now launched a smaller community branch development scheme that will benefit an anticipated 700 branches. Let me be clear: this Government and the Post Office will continue to support rural post offices.

Some hon. Members raised concerns about the rates of remuneration paid to postmasters, especially for banking services; I, too, have been and continue to be concerned about that issue. While the contractual relationship between Post Office Ltd and postmasters is an operational responsibility for the company, I care deeply about the issue and I am determined to make sure that running a post office remains an attractive business proposition.

We offer post offices several ways of doing that, including the development of services for the future. My challenge to people thinking of taking on a franchise or a post office is to make sure that they deliver the services demanded by consumers and therefore enable post offices to continue to be relevant in today’s market, given the way consumers use services now compared to the past.

I have committed to meeting interested parties, including the Post Office Ltd and the National Federation of SubPostmasters, more regularly so we can ensure that particular issues, case studies and direct concerns are discussed and challenged on a more frequent basis, and we can all work together. Everybody in this room and all our stakeholders want to see the Post Office thrive and develop in the future. Some Members may regard me as having a different ideological view: there may be different ways of getting there, but the outcomes should remain the same.

Exiting the European Union (Consumer Protection)

Debate between Patricia Gibson and Kelly Tolhurst

Tuesday 2nd April 2019 Commons Chamber

[Kelly Tolhurst]

I thank my hon. Friend for highlighting that particular point. I have made it clear that we need to get into a situation whereby we can enter into close co-operation on consumer enforcement. What happens on geo-blocking will depend on whether we leave the European Union with a deal, but we are here today to talk about a no-deal SI.

The hon. Member for Inverness, Nairn, Badenoch and Strathspey (Drew Hendry) has disappointed me by saying that he will not support the SI this afternoon. As I have outlined today, the very act of leaving the European Union without a deal would make the EU regulation redundant. It would be perverse for us to keep a regulation that would put UK traders at a disadvantage compared with EU traders.

[Patricia Gibson (North Ayrshire and Arran) (SNP)]

The Minister is talking about not disadvantaging UK consumers, which is a very laudable aim; that is what we all want. Does that mean that she will align with the European Union when it brings in a standard minimum expiration period of five years for gift cards?

[Kelly Tolhurst]

I remind the hon. Lady that we are already going above and beyond what the European Union is doing on many consumer protection matters. The UK is working on further protections. We will always be mindful of what is coming from the European Union, and we will always be minded to go further. I will ensure that UK consumers are protected as far as possible, and I will be looking into strengthening many measures in the near future.

[Patricia Gibson]

The Minister is being very generous with her time. Can I take from what she has just said that she is indeed going to bring in a five-year statutory expiration time for all gift cards? I have been urging her to do so and I have not quite had a yes. Has she given me a yes today?

[Kelly Tolhurst]

The hon. Lady will know that we are discussing an SI related to geo-blocking, not gift cards, but I am happy to talk to her about gift cards and to make her aware when we decide to move forward with any changes or improvements in that area. I assure her that I am absolutely committed to protecting consumers in this country, and this Government will be working hard to ensure that we do that whether or not we get a deal.

This statutory instrument simply recognises the practical effect of a no-deal exit from the EU, and it is important for ensuring that UK traders are not unfairly subjected to any rules. I am therefore disappointed with the hon. Member for Inverness, Nairn, Badenoch and Strathspey for saying that he will not support the draft regulations this afternoon. Failure to revoke the geo-blocking regulation would not preserve UK customers’ consumer rights, which would effectively be lost if the UK leaves the EU without a deal. The only effect of non-revocation would be to continue to impose obligations on UK traders while providing no benefits to UK customers. I therefore commend the draft regulations to the House.

Question put.

The House proceeded to a Division.

Draft Consumer Protection (Enforcement) (Amendment etc.) (EU Exit) Regulations 2018

Debate between Patricia Gibson and Kelly Tolhurst

Wednesday 23rd January 2019 General Committees

[Kelly Tolhurst]

I thank the hon. Lady for her contribution. As a responsible Government, we continue to prepare proportionately for all scenarios, including the scenario that we leave the EU without a deal. That is what this statutory instrument ensures: it revokes provision in the CPC regulation and the injunctions directive that will not be reciprocated by the EU in a no-deal situation.

I recognise the hon. Lady’s concern about the particular issue that she has raised. It is not in the scope of these regulations, but, as she knows, I am more than happy to communicate with her outside this statutory instrument Committee. Importantly, the instrument ensures that, after EU exit, UK enforcers retain powers to continue protecting UK consumers in the case of infringement of UK consumer law. That includes EU-derived consumer law.

[Patricia Gibson]

What does the Minister think will be the effect on the UK’s influence in European markets, for example? After Brexit, does she think that the UK’s influence on consumer protection will increase or decrease?

[Kelly Tolhurst]

The statutory instrument before us talks about UK enforcement, and that, through our UK enforcement agencies, which are already registered under EU law, will be retained under UK law. As always, this Government and our enforcement agencies are committed to the protection of consumers in this country and will do whatever they can, in the event of no deal, to ensure that the relationships with our European neighbours will be maintained as far as possible, but obviously a lot of that will rest with the EU and how it wants to deal with us after EU exit.

Fireworks: Public Sales

Debate between Patricia Gibson and Kelly Tolhurst

Monday 26th November 2018 Westminster Hall

[Kelly Tolhurst]

Perhaps I misunderstood, but that is what I heard from this end. My suggestion is that the police do take such matters seriously, in any constituency. Regarding any criminal activity that is identified as serious, the police absolutely attend.

[Patricia Gibson]

If I heard the Minister correctly, she suggested—if she did not say—that the work of the Office for Product Safety and Standards is ongoing. I think that is what she said—what I understood. If the office is not yet in a position to tell us how it will proceed on fireworks, with all the concerns around them, do we have a timeframe for when it might bring forward its own conclusions or proposals about how we move forward?

[Kelly Tolhurst]

I will move on to that reference later in my speech, and to how potentially I, as the Minister responsible, and in line with the Office for Product Safety and Standards, would like to take the matter forward. If the hon. Lady would bear with me, that would be great.

The hon. Member for Glasgow Central suggested that it was not possible to seize fireworks in some cases. I would like to reassure her that fireworks can be seized under the Consumer Protection Act 1987 and the Explosives Act 1875. Just to give her an example, Greater Manchester seized 50 kg of bangers last year and 36 kg of category 4 fireworks, and Worcestershire seized fireworks from two different premises.

--- Later in debate ---

[Kelly Tolhurst]

I thank my hon. Friend for his suggestion. I know that local forces work well with local authorities and other agencies on how best to implement regulation, control local problems and carry out enforcement. My hon. Friend makes a very good point and it is something we would have to discuss with those agencies and the local authorities involved.

During the debate in January, the then Minister agreed to meet with hon. Members who had an interest in the matter and discuss their concerns. As I said in response to a Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy question last week, I am open to hearing more and to receiving information and evidence on firework safety issues. This debate has certainly provided much information for further consideration.

[Patricia Gibson]

The Minister is being extremely generous with her time. I just want to ask her the question that I think everyone in this room wants to ask, and probably every member of the public who has an interest in the issue. Is she minded to have a consultation? I hear what she says about what has been going on, but is she minded to proceed down the path of a consultation on the sale of fireworks? I think that is what a lot of people want to know.

[Kelly Tolhurst]

I hope to have a meeting, which I think may also have been offered by my predecessor, with hon. Members who are interested. That will be an opportunity for them to discuss this issue with me, because what has come out today is that there is no consensus. There are different elements, and a number of issues and different opinions have been discussed. That is absolutely fine—that is what a debate is about—but it is not something that we could run with. As the Minister responsible, I would like to come up with a suggested way forward, looking at things in a more organised way. That is why I suggest a face-to-face meeting with hon. Members to discuss their concerns and suggest how we might take this matter forward.

Following the January debate, officials were tasked with reviewing the guidance. In order to ensure that all views are taken into account, I have asked those officials to connect constructively with key stakeholders during the next steps, addressing any awareness or information gaps. The creation of the Office for Product Safety and Standards has given us the opportunity to make the best use of scientific evidence, incident data, risk and intelligence in our decision making. As a result, we are now in a much better position to ensure we have the right evidence-based approach to firework safety, and to commission new evidence where necessary. That will ensure we have a thorough understanding of the issues with the safe sale and use of fireworks.

I will respond to a couple of questions. The hon. Members for Sheffield, Brightside and Hillsborough (Gill Furniss) and for North Ayrshire and Arran (Patricia Gibson) have asked about the consultation on fireworks, and I will happily meet Members to discuss a way forward. As I have already outlined, the Office for Product Safety and Standards is gathering data and looking at ways in which we can acquire the thorough evidence that we will need to back up anything we introduce. As for enforcement, I am personally committed to making sure that we enforce the law in this country, as the hon. Member for Sheffield, Brightside and Hillsborough knows and as I highlighted last week.

We are also committed to consumer protection. I made my interest in that area expressly clear in two different debates last week, as well as my interest in the data and the work that we are doing. The Office for Product Safety and Standards and the Department are using data scientifically to make better decisions on consumer protection and safety.