Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Pat McFadden and Rupa Huq

Thursday 25th July 2024 Commons Chamber

[Dr Rupa Huq (Ealing Central and Acton) (Lab)]

10. What recent estimate he has made of the cost to the public purse of fraud and error in Government departments and agencies.

[The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Pat McFadden)]

Government estimates of the amount of money lost to fraud and error vary hugely, in truth: the latest estimate has a range of between £40 billion and almost £60 billion, which is a huge range. The public rightly expect us to do all we can to minimise fraud in the use of public funds, which is one reason why my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer has announced the establishment of a covid corruption commissioner, whose job it will be to track down as much as possible of the money lost to fraud during the pandemic. The Cabinet Office will work closely with the Chancellor on this to try to ensure best value for money for the public and, of course, crack down on fraud right across Government Departments and agencies.

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[Pat McFadden]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right: there is potential for greater use of AI in detecting and rooting out fraud. We want the UK to be an excellent place to develop new uses of AI, both in its public sector applications and the development of private business. There is already a single network analytics platform, which is an AI-based detection tool to help public sector organisations detect fraud, but like many AI applications, we are probably only at the beginning of what can be achieved in this area. We should use every technological tool at our disposal to secure best value for money for the taxpayer.

[Dr Huq]

As well as Matt Hancock’s pub landlord scoring a PPE contract despite having zero relevant expertise, non-covid error, fraud and waste cost the public purse £58.5 billion in the year 2020-21 alone. Could my right hon. Friend tell us how those colossal sums of money will be recovered? He mentioned a commissioner; can he also tell us how we will get rid of cronyism and nepotism, so that these things never happen again?

[Pat McFadden]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right to draw attention to the scale of the problem. The truth is that, according to the latest figures, the amount that has been recovered is relatively small compared with the scale of loss. The previous Government’s own former Minister for counter-fraud described the Conservative party’s record as “nothing less than woeful” and riddled with “schoolboy errors”, and the shadow Business Secretary, the hon. Member for Thirsk and Malton (Kevin Hollinrake), described the previous Prime Minister’s handling of this issue as dismissive. We cannot afford to be dismissive: we have a duty to take it seriously and use whatever means we can to bear down on fraud, so that money meant for public services and legitimate recipients of public funds is used for its intended purposes.