Interest Rate Swap Derivatives

Pat McFadden Excerpts

Thursday 24th October 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mr Pat McFadden (Wolverhampton South East) (Lab)]

I pay tribute to the hon. Member for Aberconwy (Guto Bebb) and all the supporters of this debate on raising an important issue. I also pay tribute to my Treasury Committee colleague, the hon. Member for Wyre Forest (Mark Garnier) for his detailed explanation of a complex aspect of this subject that probably not everyone understands.

This is the latest in a series of issues that has corroded, damaged and sometimes destroyed trust between banks and their customers following the payment protection insurance scandal. We should pause and consider a couple of features of the PPI scandal. It was characterised, first, by a refusal to admit that there was a problem; secondly, by a refusal to take responsibility for that problem; and finally, by a huge bill for the banks because it had taken too long to face up to those things. I wonder whether any of those lessons have really been learned given the way that this issue is being dealt with.

Like the hon. Member for Wyre Forest, I spent much of the past year serving on the Parliamentary Commission on Banking Standards chaired by the hon. Member for Chichester (Mr Tyrie), where we looked into the standards and culture of the banks more widely. We found a sales culture, backed by the bonus systems, going right down to branch level. The banks pushed products like this, often allied with a product that the customer wanted, namely a loan, yet sometimes the customer was not even aware that a product was being sold to them or, if they were, whether it was a voluntary agreement or something they had to accept as a condition of the loan.

[Stephen Lloyd (Eastbourne) (LD)]

The right hon. Gentleman has hit on something really important, which is that the banks’ whole modus operandi was to sell products that individuals wanted and slip in the interest rate swaps underneath. I am glad that he has reminded us of that. Does he agree that it is important for these businesses to know that it has been agreed on the Floor of the House, and it is recorded in Hansard, that they will be offered compensation that aims to put them back in the position in which they would have been if there had not been a mis-sale, plus interest rates of about 8% a year?

[Mr McFadden]

I do agree, but there is also the question of who gets that redress and who does not.

Underneath this sales culture, we found that instead of a culture of a duty of care to the customer there was—characterised by the combining of products, often a simple product with a complex one—a culture of “buyer beware” that put the responsibility for fully understanding and being aware of all this in the customer’s lap, with, in many cases, the bank showing a lack of responsibility.

[Mr Straw]

I entirely endorse what my right hon. Friend has said. Does he accept that what made the banks’ behaviour even less acceptable is that such was the complexity of the swap products that often—and to my certain knowledge in a case that I have dealt with—the person providing the loan from the bank had no proper understanding of how the hedge product was going to work?

[Mr McFadden]

That is a really important point. Having heard the speech by the hon. Member for Wyre Forest, I wonder how many of the people selling these products would have been in a position to explain the consequences to their customers. I think we know the answer.

Products were being sold, allied to another product, that may or may not have been suitable for the person buying them. The customer may or may not have fully understood what they were buying, but they were left fully with the consequences of having bought it, to the extent that we had the situations highlighted in this debate whereby the banks pursued customers to such a degree that they were put out of business. We should recognise that hedging is not always wrong, and trying to insure against risks is not always wrong, but a degree of understanding is important. People have to understand what they are buying and the product has to be suitable for them. When the lifetime of the hedging product is completely different from that of the loan, there is a serious problem about that product’s suitability.

This issue provides a really important test of the standards and culture in the banks after everything that has happened. They have to show whether they have learned the lessons of previous mis-selling scandals or whether there has been a repeat of the pattern of behaviour that we saw before in which there was first a refusal to face up to responsibility. That was followed by increasing anger among the customer base and the destruction of trust, followed by a redress scheme that might have ended up being more expensive than the one that might have been put in place earlier.

This is also a test of the FCA. We are in the early stages of a new regulatory system, as the FCA has been in existence for only about six months. The system of redress that it has proposed is an important test of whether it is going to be able to do its job in restoring trust between banks and consumers in the face of sometimes increasingly complex financial products;

[Mr Heath]

The right hon. Gentleman is absolutely right to say that restoring trust between customers and banks is a crucial element. Businesses must not only get redress for what they have lost but be put back into the position that they would have been in and that includes the relationship with the bank, credit lines, and everything else that makes small businesses work.

[Mr McFadden]

The hon. Gentleman makes a good point. Culturally, we should be trying to get to a situation in which the banks have a duty of care to their customers instead of marketing and developing products that are driven by a sales and bonus culture that, in effect, says “Buyer beware” and puts all the onus on to the customer.

The proposed system of redress is based heavily on the sophistication test. That leaves a lot to be desired, because unless it is very carefully designed it cannot take account of the wide variety of types of business. Size and sophistication are not the same thing. It cannot take account of the wide variety of circumstances in which these products were sold or the wide variety of difficulties that businesses find themselves in.

Previous mis-selling scandals have been characterised by years of unnecessary delay that have caused incredible grief to those subject to them. If there is one further lesson that should be learned about interest rate swaps, it is that this process should not drag on for years. We need a system of redress that learns the lessons of the past and is implemented as quickly as possible.

--- Later in debate ---

[Nia Griffith (Llanelli) (Lab)]

Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, for allowing me the opportunity to speak in this very important debate. I congratulate the hon. Member for Aberconwy (Guto Bebb) on the work he has done over the years and on bringing the matter to the House’s attention through this debate.

This issue affected successful businesses that were trying to expand and help create more jobs in the local economy. Some of the businesses that have visited me were successful and had excellent plans for expansion. The really sad thing is that during their negotiations to change or expand their loans, it was often the case, as my hon. Friend the Member for Alyn and Deeside (Mark Tami) has said, that they were told right at the very last minute that, unless they accepted this clause, the whole thing would be shelved and they would lose all the transactions and work they were about to undertake. That was significant for them, because it meant having to say yes or no to a very important loan.

I think that such businesses are intrinsically fearful of going to the banks, which is a real problem. The terms and conditions for small businesses have changed so much over the past few years that they are fearful that, if they explain their difficulties to a bank, they will suddenly be told that their terms and conditions for a loan will be changed again. That is a real disincentive. The key thing to remember is that these are people who genuinely are trying to do the right thing, but who are fearful—perhaps ashamed—because they did not know exactly what was going on in the first place, even though, as my right hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton South East (Mr McFadden) has said, the people who sold them the scheme were incentivised to do so in an underhand way. Often they would not make it at all clear to the businesses exactly what they were entering into. We need to redouble our efforts and look in particular at why there are so many delays, because every delay means businesses raking up yet more debt.

[Mr McFadden]

On the sales culture, what does my hon. Friend have to say about the evidence that the Parliamentary Commission on Banking Standards received from the trade unions representing bank staff that said that, sometimes, if branch staff did not meet their sales targets, they would be taken aside, given special management and pressurised to sell more products over the next month or two in order to meet the targets on which their bonuses were based?

[Nia Griffith]

My right hon. Friend makes a valid point. I have met people who were put in that situation and who ended up leaving the bank because they found it so difficult and uncomfortable working in that sort of culture. That does not help small businesses, which want a decent banking system from which they can get decent advice and the loans they need.

The worry is that the Financial Conduct Authority and the banks are not doing things as speedily as they might and that there will be a distinct delay. We are all aware that the agreement was that an independent reviewer would look at each case and that that process would be overseen by the FSA. My hon. Friends the Members for Nottingham East (Chris Leslie) and for Chesterfield (Toby Perkins) wrote to the Chancellor over a year ago outlining what we wanted to happen. When the Financial Secretary sums up, will he tell us what progress has been made?

We want a clear message that there will be no adverse effect for people if they tell their bank that they think they may have been victims of this particular mis-selling. We also want a moratorium on the foreclosure of affected businesses by their banks. People are really worried that, if they start looking at the issue in detail and open the box, they might be forced to reschedule their loans in an unmanageable way and that they eventually might be foreclosed on by their banks. The Chancellor and the Business Secretary need to send a much stronger message to the FCA about how we want the banks to work.

As many Members have said, we want the quickest resolution possible, but time limits also need to be looked at. The problem is that businesses that signed up to these agreements back in 2006 and 2007 are now reaching the six-year limit, and they will find themselves in considerable difficulties if they do not get redress through the scheme and end up going to court. We need to look at the way in which complaints are handled and the time limit that is being allowed. Perhaps there could be movement on that issue.

In summary, this issue needs urgent attention. We need a much speedier resolution and people need to be treated properly and courteously by their banks. They should not have to be fearful of loans being rescheduled or of being thrown out of the frying pan into the fire, which is their real worry. Speed is of the essence, because these businesses provide jobs in our communities and if they go under, it could mean not one lost job, but many job losses. I urge the Financial Secretary to say what more the Government can do to put pressure on the FCA and the banks to ensure a speedy resolution.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Sajid Javid)]

First, let me take this opportunity to welcome you to your new Chair, Madam Deputy Speaker. It is a great pleasure to see you in your place. I also welcome the hon. Member for Birmingham, Ladywood (Shabana Mahmood) to her new role and wish her luck with it.

I start by thanking all the hon. Members who secured this debate and by congratulating everyone on presenting their case well. Special thanks must go to my hon. Friend the Member for Aberconwy (Guto Bebb) for the time, energy and passion that he has put into this issue and for the leadership he has shown. We can see from this debate that this issue is very serious; 17 of my hon. Friends and four other hon. Members have spoken today. I am sure that everyone in this Chamber, like all those others watching in the Public Gallery, at home and elsewhere, including the hundreds watching in the Central Methodist hall from the many businesses that have been affected, is keen to see a quick conclusion to the FCA review and to see that those businesses that were mis-sold financial products are compensated accordingly.

When I was growing up, my father ran a small family business in Bristol, so I was made aware from a young age about the importance of cash flow and the dangers of unexpected costs. As such, I sympathise wholeheartedly with the small businesses that have been affected by this mis-selling scandal and have put such energy into lobbying on this issue. This Government have made it clear from the beginning that the mis-selling of financial products is totally unacceptable. We take extremely seriously the abuse that has taken place, and we are determined that any wrongs that have been inflicted on businesses should be righted.

I share the disappointment of fellow hon. Members about the progress made under the FCA review to date. I stood up in a Westminster Hall debate about four and a half months ago to discuss this very issue, and the fact that the FCA has not made any significant progress since that debate is, frankly, not good enough. As we have heard today, the FCA said in January this year that the full review process would begin, but it has since confirmed that the full process did not start until May this year. That delay has been disappointing, and the FCA should have been much clearer about exactly when this full review actually started. However, the review is now up and running, with the large majority of cases being looked at. I understand from the FCA that it believes that about 85% of cases are now under review, but hon. Members are absolutely right to say that it is time for the banks and the FCA to do more to speed up the process and get redress out the door. As such, the Government will continue to push the banks and the FCA to complete the process as quickly as possible. As the motion says, the redress scheme’s progress has been too slow. That is costly and has caused further undue distress to the businesses involved. The FCA and banks need to get on with the job.

[Mr McFadden]

Before the Minister leaves the issue of the FCA, will he say what he thinks of the FCA’s reply to some businesses in distress—that it will not consider individual cases?