Trade Union Bill (Third sitting)

Nusrat Ghani Excerpts

Thursday 15th October 2015 Public Bill Committees

[Ian Mearns]

Q 253 And there is law covering that sort of content anyway, is there not?

Deputy Chief Constable Hall: Yes.

[Nusrat Ghani (Wealden) (Con)]

Q 254 You have both mentioned limited resources. I just want to ask you whether you think it is right that your limited resources are used to get involved in large-scale strikes in the country. Looking at the tube strikes, for example, do you think that it is right that police resources are used to manage the strikes when only a minority of people have asked for them in the first place?

Deputy Chief Constable Hall: As Steve has already said, in policing we have got many priorities at the moment, and industrial disputes, if I am honest, are probably not at the top of the list of what we need to deploy resources against. What I would say is that we have a responsibility to keep the peace and uphold the law, and that can see us deployed into all sorts of different situations. Clearly, industrial dispute is one of those.

If there are industrial disputes where that role is necessary, then I would say that we will continue to need to deploy resources, but it does take resource away from other areas that I am sure all the police and crime commissioners around the country would consider to be our priorities, such as dealing with vulnerable people and reducing crime. This is not a natural area that falls into those priorities, but if we need to deploy resources to keep the peace, of course we will continue to do so.

[Nusrat Ghani]

Q 255 So you are being made to deploy resources from other incidents to manage strike action, when only a minority of people have asked for those strikes?

Deputy Chief Constable Hall: It is inevitably going to do that. When we have a limited and reducing resource base, large-scale deployment of police to industrial disputes is going to pull officers from other duties and responsibilities.

Steve White: The only comment I would make is that a distinction needs to be made between managing an industrial dispute—in terms of who is in charge, informing the police and managing it—and responding to an incident of disorder. We would respond to an incident of disorder whether it is in relation to an industrial dispute or a pub fight. Of course, we have a duty to respond to that, and we need to ensure that we have got the resources in place to do that. As Charlie has already said, the desire would be for these industrial disputes to be self-policing. If they are not, we are going to need resources and we do not have them.

[Nusrat Ghani]

Q 256 So you would have to deploy resources from elsewhere. You mentioned industrial disputes being self-policing, and you also mentioned, Chief Constable, that it would be easier if you were able to identify individuals who might be in charge if you came across a scenario. Wearing an armband would be one easy way to identify people, would it not?

Deputy Chief Constable Hall: Quite possibly.

[Nusrat Ghani]

Q 257 And you do not think that is detrimental to their human rights—having to wear an arm band?

Deputy Chief Constable Hall: I think that is probably for others to decide. I think what I have said is that when we attend being able to find out fairly quickly who is in charge and responsible for that picket is helpful to us. So there are many different ways I think that could be done.

[Nusrat Ghani]

Q 258 It saves money and saves time, does not it?

Deputy Chief Constable Hall: Well, we can quickly get in, negotiate and try to resolve whatever reason we have been called there for.

Steve White: We must not forget the use of good policing skills in this. Most of the time it is not rocket science. You can quickly establish who is in charge, whether they are wearing an arm band or not; but of course this is about the management of it, rather than responding to an incident. I suspect if there is major disorder breaking out you do not necessarily need to go and find who is in charge. You need to deal with the disorder. That is the only comment I would make.

[Nusrat Ghani]

Q 259 You also mentioned that it is very rare to get into a difficult situation. Most of the time these situations are self-policed and well managed; but have you come across scenarios where people wanting to cross the picket line have felt intimidated? Have you had to police that situation at all?

Deputy Chief Constable Hall: I think policing across the country will certainly have come across that. In my experience, and what I have had fed to me, sometimes at the mere presence of a picket line individuals can feel intimidated; but that is not necessarily, given that picket lines have protection within the law, something that the police are going to intervene about. I think there is a whole spectrum of intimidation, and some people who may wish to go into work will simply feel intimidated because of a presence there, and in my view that is not something that policing would then intervene with. We start to intervene where disorder is looking likely, or there are actual criminal offences that we have on the statute book that we need to deal with.

Steve White: Can I just come back on that? In terms of adding balance you can have the perception that a picket line could be threatening, and I am thinking about the footage from large industrial disputes of the past—the miners’ strike, for example. The last picket that I saw was local to me, in the south-west of England. It was in relation to a rail dispute, I think it was. I have to say that the atmosphere on the picket line was one of very light-hearted jolliness—people tooting their horns and shouting and waving, and so on and so forth. I only add that from a question of balance. Clearly we would not be involved in policing that picket line; but of course, as Charlie has said, if things overstep the mark and start to impress on the peace of it, then of course—

[Nusrat Ghani]

Then you have to move resources across.

Steve White: Yes, of course; but there is a balance to be had. As I say, everyone seemed to be enjoying themselves at that picket line.

[The Chair]

When I was practising as a criminal barrister we were not allowed to ask leading questions. There is nothing out of order about leading questions, but our witnesses are so skilled that one probably does not need to lead them, and I sure Mr Doughty, who has the next question, will not.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Chair]

John Howell is champing at the bit, but he is such a gentleman that I know he will want Nusrat Ghani to go first.

[Nusrat Ghani]

Q 307 Thank you, Chair.

Commissioner Dobson, I want to ask about something you mentioned to Mr Cartlidge earlier. Is it correct that in the 2010 dispute the non-striking workers found it difficult to get into the fire station?

Commissioner Dobson: Yes.

[Nusrat Ghani]

Q 308 You also mentioned that fire engines were approached, deterred or attacked when leaving the station.

Commissioner Dobson: Yes.

[Nusrat Ghani]

Q 309 Were any firefighters’ lives at risk at that time, when they were trying to carry out their duty?

Commissioner Dobson: No, I do not think that their lives were at risk. It was the emergency fire crew workers—the contingency force—who were followed and intimidated. I do not think that their lives were put at risk, but they certainly felt intimidated.

[Nusrat Ghani]

Q 310 They could have been hurt though.

Commissioner Dobson: Yes.

[Nusrat Ghani]

Q 311 And the victims of fire—could their lives have been put at risk if fire engines were unable to get out to them in a decent time?

Commissioner Dobson: That is a possibility, yes.

[Nusrat Ghani]

Q 312 So it was dangerous for both the firefighters and the victims of fire who were asking for help.

Commissioner Dobson: Yes, I believe it was.