Business of the House

Debate between Norman Lamb and John Bercow

Thursday 24th October 2019 Commons Chamber

[Mr Speaker]

If everyone asks a single-sentence question, most colleagues will get in. If they don’t, they won’t.

[Norman Lamb (North Norfolk) (LD)]

Will the Home Secretary make a statement on immigration policy, specifically in relation to scientists, and particularly the case of Furaha Asani, a young academic who came to this country with a full scholarship to do a PhD on infection and immunity and who has since done cardio- vascular research at Leicester University? She is now being told that she will be deported to the Democratic Republic of the Congo, where she has never even visited, let alone lived. This is surely scandalous, outrageous and inhumane, and is the last thing we should do if we are to invite and encourage scientists to this country.

Net Zero Emissions Target

Debate between Norman Lamb and John Bercow

Wednesday 12th June 2019 Commons Chamber

[Mr Speaker]

Well! There is an embarrassment of riches. The right hon. Member for Kingston and Surbiton (Sir Edward Davey) is of course a former Secretary of State, and he is a Kingston knight, but just today, I am going to call before him a Norfolk knight, Sir Norman Lamb.

[Norman Lamb (North Norfolk) (LD)]

Thank you very much indeed, Mr Speaker. I warmly welcome this statement. It is a significant milestone, but does the Secretary of State agree that we now need to significantly increase the sense of urgency, particularly in decarbonising the heating of buildings and transport? We have no incentive at all to increase energy efficiency in the heating of homes other than for the most vulnerable households; we are still waiting for the consultation on building regulations to deliver zero carbon; and the plug-in grant for vehicles has been cut. This surely is not good enough, and we need to increase that sense of urgency.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Norman Lamb and John Bercow

Tuesday 15th January 2019 Commons Chamber

[Mr Speaker]

Order. We are running late, but I do not think Health questions would be complete without the right hon. Member for North Norfolk (Norman Lamb).

[Norman Lamb (North Norfolk) (LD)]

20. What assessment he has made of the effect of changes to local authority public health budgets in 2019-20 on his Department’s ability to achieve its “Prevention is better than cure” vision.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Norman Lamb and John Bercow

Tuesday 13th November 2018 Commons Chamber

[Mr Speaker]

Order. I was awaiting advice on an important matter, so it was advantageous to have a slightly protracted exchange, but that should not be taken as a precedent for future sessions. Other Members who are standing have already asked a question, but the right hon. Member for North Norfolk (Norman Lamb) has not, so we will have one more question.

[Norman Lamb (North Norfolk) (LD)]

Thank you, Mr Speaker. Does the Secretary of State recognise that it is intolerable that employment and support allowance claimants at the Norwich tribunal are waiting 40 weeks—nine months—for their appeal hearing, and that personal independence payment claimants are waiting six months, particularly when 71% of those appeals are successful? What is he doing to change that?

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Norman Lamb and John Bercow

Tuesday 4th July 2017 Commons Chamber

[Norman Lamb (North Norfolk) (LD)]

rose—

[Mr Speaker]

The right hon. Member for North Norfolk (Norman Lamb) is not exactly standing; he is more perched like a panther about to pounce.

[Norman Lamb]

Thank you for the encouragement, Mr Speaker.

I have been alerted to an online posting yesterday on the social network Nextdoor by the father of a teenager who suffered awful trauma witnessing the horror at Grenfell Tower. He was after therapy for his daughter. Clearly there is an absolute need to ensure that everyone who may be in need knows how to get such therapy. What are the Government doing to ensure that everyone does know? Also, what are they doing to ensure that there is sufficient funding locally so that mental health services can provide for what will clearly be ongoing needs?

Personal Independence Payment: Regulations

Debate between Norman Lamb and John Bercow

Wednesday 29th March 2017 Commons Chamber

[Norman Lamb]

On a point of order, Mr Speaker. You rightly ensured that the Minister had enough time to answer questions, but none of what she is saying is about the key issue in the regulations.

[Mr Speaker]

The right hon. Gentleman must seek to intervene if he can and pursue other mechanisms if he cannot.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Norman Lamb and John Bercow

Tuesday 22nd March 2016 Commons Chamber

[Norman Lamb (North Norfolk) (LD)]

I was delighted that Paul Farmer’s taskforce report endorsed the plan first proposed by the Secretary of State and myself in 2014 to have comprehensive maximum waiting times in mental health by 2020 so that people with mental ill health have exactly the same right to treatment on time as others. I was delighted that the Government endorsed the whole plan, but dismayed that Simon Stevens then confirmed that there was no money to implement it. How will the Minister ensure that the comprehensive waiting time standards are implemented by 2020?

[Mr Speaker]

If anything, questions are getting longer, not shorter. I say with great courtesy to the right hon. Gentleman, whom I hold in the highest esteem and whose track record is greatly respected across the House, that his question was far too long.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Norman Lamb and John Bercow

Wednesday 4th November 2015 Commons Chamber

[Norman Lamb (North Norfolk) (LD)]

I thank the Prime Minister for his welcome—[Interruption.]

[Mr Speaker]

Order. I want to hear this question.

[Norman Lamb]

I thank the Prime Minister for welcoming the campaign launched this week whereby 200 leaders from across society will join the right hon. Member for Sutton Coldfield (Mr Mitchell), Alastair Campbell and me in calling for equality for those who suffer from mental ill health. The truth is that those who suffer from mental ill health do not have the same right to access treatment as others enjoy in our NHS. The moral and economic case for ending this historical injustice is overwhelming. Will the Prime Minister do what it takes to ensure that this spending review delivers the extra investment in mental health needed to deliver genuine equality?

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Norman Lamb and John Bercow

Tuesday 13th October 2015 Commons Chamber

[Mr Speaker]

Never mind. These things can always be recycled on subsequent occasions. I have been there and I have done it, and the hon. Lady should fear not.

[Norman Lamb (North Norfolk) (LD)]

The Minister referred to the additional money for eating disorders in the autumn statement last year, the purpose of which was to introduce a maximum waiting times standard from next April. We all know that early intervention is critical. It is a condition that kills too many people. Will he confirm that he remains committed to introducing a maximum waiting times standard for eating disorders from next April?

Child and Adolescent Mental Health Services

Debate between Norman Lamb and John Bercow

Tuesday 3rd March 2015 Commons Chamber

[Norman Lamb]

I am very happy to look at Coventry if the hon. Gentleman wants to send me a note about that.

I make the case that there needs to be more investment in mental health, and my party has argued for £500 million of additional investment a year in mental health in the next Parliament. Investing £54 million for the children and young people’s IAPT—improving access to psychological therapies—programme has started to transform existing services, and it now covers 68% of the nought to 19-year-old population, which exceeds the original target of 60% by 2015. NHS England continues to plan for nationwide roll-out, as set out in the mandate, which should be achieved by 2018.

As part of the autumn statement, the Deputy Prime Minister and I announced £150 million of investment over the next five years to deal with eating disorders. This will help to ensure that any young person can get the help they need, no matter where they live, and will allow the development of waiting time standards for eating disorders from 2016. This is a condition that can kill, so it is so important that we get early access. We have invested £3 million in MindEd, a digital resource to help people who work with young people and children. It is an online platform designed to give them the help that they need in the work that they do.

The prevalence survey is being undertaken—we have secured the money for it—and we plan for it to be ready by 2017. The aim is for it to cover children and young people from two years to 19 years, which is a wider range than in the original survey. That should be widely welcomed.

As for the taskforce, although there has been much progress, the Government have been open about the scale of the challenge and acknowledged that there is still much to do. As the Committee is aware, I set up the taskforce last summer. It is chaired jointly by the Department and NHS England and brings together a whole load of experts from outside Whitehall and listens to the voice of young people as well. This is a massive opportunity fundamentally to modernise the way children and young people’s health services operate, embracing the role of the voluntary sector and the potential for online support for youngsters, and sorting out this ridiculous, fragmented commissioning. The problem has been there for a long time, but things need to be made much simpler, so that we can have coherent services that are easily understandable for children and their families. If we can grasp this opportunity, we can make a massive difference for young people.

Let me say a word about crisis care. In a way, this is the area where the gap between physical and mental health is greatest. The Torbay case that my hon. Friend the Member for Totnes mentioned was a shock to the system, although we have already seen considerable reductions in the number of young people going into police stations. We are on course to see a reduction of about 30% this year, but it needs to be much greater than that. In my view, we need to legislate to end the practice completely. It is surely completely unacceptable that young people under the age of 18 end up in police cells rather than in a hospital. That practice simply has to come to an end.

I applaud everyone who has participated in this debate on a really important subject. I think we have an opportunity massively to improve things.

[Mr Speaker]

We thank the Minister, whose sense of timing is almost immaculate. I know that he intended that this debate should finish at seven o’clock, which it has done.

Question deferred (Standing Order No. 54).

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Norman Lamb and John Bercow

Tuesday 24th February 2015 Commons Chamber

[Mary Macleod (Brentford and Isleworth) (Con)]

16. What his priorities are for improving mental health care.

[Mr Speaker]

Minister Lamb.

[The Minister of State, Department of Health (Norman Lamb)]

Mr Speaker, you sounded a note of tedium in calling my name again.

[Mr Speaker]

I feel no sense of tedium but almost a state of ecstasy upon calling the right hon. Gentleman. If I gave any other impression, I most heartily apologise to him. I hope that he is now assured of his status in the affections of the Chair, if, possibly, also of the House? There might have to be a Division on that proposition. I do not know.

[Norman Lamb]

I am so grateful to be reassured, Mr Speaker.

Mental health is a priority for this Government. We have legislated for parity of esteem between mental and physical health, invested £400 million in talking therapies, significantly reduced the numbers of people who are placed in police cells during mental health crises and are introducing the first waiting times standards for mental health services from April this year.

Child and Adolescent Mental Health Services

Debate between Norman Lamb and John Bercow

Monday 2nd February 2015 Commons Chamber

[Glenda Jackson (Hampstead and Kilburn) (Lab)]

The Minister seems to be arguing that the solution to the problem is further evidence. For all the years that I have been in this House—almost 23 now—the issue of underfunding for mental health has been constant. The underfunding of services for children and adults who are suffering from mental health problems is an issue I raised in this House less than six weeks ago. It is unacceptable to claim that if there had been more information, measures would have been put in place to prevent children being sent hundreds of miles from their homes or being placed in adult wards. The Minister’s contribution has clarified the total lack of co-ordinated services for these young people. What kind of care would be afforded to someone in their home when, as in my constituency, their home may well be bed and breakfast, a hostel or some form of temporary accommodation? This is an urgent question; it requires urgent action. [Interruption.]

[Mr Speaker]

Somebody said that was very wrong. It was a Shakespearian performance. In fact, somebody once said to me, “That person could have been on the stage”!

[Norman Lamb]

I am delighted that the hon. Lady made the point not made by her Front-Bench spokesperson, which is that this is a long-standing problem. The disadvantage suffered by mental health has been there for a long time. Indeed, it was exacerbated, if I may say so, by the fact that access and waiting time standards were introduced for physical health, but the previous Government left out mental health. If that happens, it dictates where the money goes. That, combined with a funding system that sucks money into acute hospitals but which in mental health relies on a block contract, means that mental health always loses out. It is this Government who are determined to change that to ensure that mental health is finally treated equally.

National Health Service

Debate between Norman Lamb and John Bercow

Wednesday 21st January 2015 Commons Chamber

[Norman Lamb]

That is absolute rubbish. Indeed, one of the right hon. Gentleman’s predecessors, the right hon. Member for Hull West and somewhere—

[Mr Speaker]

The right hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull West and Hessle, rather than “somewhere”.

[Norman Lamb]

I apologise, Mr Speaker. The right hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull West and Hessle (Alan Johnson) spoke very candidly about the role of the private sector under the previous Labour Government, which the shadow Secretary of State constantly seeks to deny.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Norman Lamb and John Bercow

Tuesday 13th January 2015 Commons Chamber

[Mr Speaker]

The hon. Gentleman’s question is quite a long way from the statutory guidance, but it can be given a brief reply.

[Norman Lamb]

I have to say that I was not aware of the information provided by the hon. Gentleman. I should be happy for him to send me more information, but I make the general point that it is always important for us to base our decisions and expenditure on evidence.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Norman Lamb and John Bercow

Monday 12th May 2014 Commons Chamber

[The Minister of State, Department of Health (Norman Lamb)]

I beg to move,

That this House does not insist on its amendment 11 and agrees with Lords amendments 11B and 11C in lieu.

[Mr Speaker]

With this it will be convenient to consider the following:

Lords amendment 32A to Commons amendment 32, and consequential Lords amendments 32C and 32D.

Commons amendment 40, Government motion not to insist, Lords amendment 40B in lieu, amendments (a) and (b) thereto, Lords amendment 40C in lieu, amendment (c) thereto and Lords amendments 40D and 40E in lieu.

Commons amendment 42, Government motion not to insist and Lords amendments 42B and 42C in lieu.

Commons amendment 46, Government motion not to insist and Lords amendments 46B to 46E in lieu.

[Norman Lamb]

I would like to start by placing on the record my sincere thanks to all right hon. and hon. Members for a real spirit of collaboration that has existed throughout the Bill’s consideration and for the constructive criticism that has characterised both our formal and informal discussions leading up to this moment. Many of the suggestions have been taken up, and I believe we now have a better Bill as a result. This scrutiny has influenced not only the Government’s amendments, but the surrounding policy, and our proposals for forthcoming secondary legislation and guidance. Indeed, the approach we have taken so far of working collaboratively with those in the sector will continue throughout the consideration of the secondary legislation and guidance.

Hon. Members may recall that some weeks ago on Report I undertook to consider further the matter of the application of the Human Rights Act to social care. Government amendments 11B and 11C represent the fulfilment of that promise. They respond to the excellent report by the Joint Committee on Human Rights, and follow discussions that Earl Howe, the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State with responsibility for quality, and I have had with a number of Members of the House of Lords and with my right hon. Friend the Member for Sutton and Cheam (Paul Burstow). I am grateful to the Joint Committee and to those parliamentarians with whom we have had such constructive discussions.

As has been said in this House and in the Lords throughout the passage of the Bill, this Government need to send out a strong message to the sector not to allow abuse, neglect or harm. Our priority must be preventing harm, abuse and neglect from happening in the first place. We very much believe that there are already, as a result of the steps this Government have taken, strong deterrents to abuse and neglect, and many of the Care Quality Commission’s fundamental standards will include human rights dimensions. The standards will apply to all registered providers of health and social care, and failure to comply with these standards which relate to harm could be a criminal offence. We are, however, aware of the strength of feeling on this matter, which is why Earl Howe offered a Government amendment in the Lords.

The amendment does not extend the scope of the Human Rights Act into the purely private sphere, where there is no state involvement, which clause 48, removed in the Public Bill Committee, did. It would, though, make it explicit that care providers who are regulated by the Care Quality Commission in England, or by equivalent bodies in the rest of the United Kingdom, when providing care and support arranged or funded in whole or in part by local authorities, are exercising a public function for the purposes of the Human Rights Act. In welcoming the amendment, Lords Members agreed that it meets the objectives of the Joint Committee on Human Rights. The amendment has also been welcomed by the Equality and Human Rights Commission. The amendment makes it clear that providers of publicly arranged or funded care and support—both residential and non-residential—provided on behalf of a local authority to an individual are bound by the Human Rights Act.

As hon. Members may recall, I was unable to accept the JCHR amendment, in the way it was drafted, for technical reasons. The Human Rights Act is an entrenched enactment, which the devolved legislatures cannot modify, but its application should be the same across the UK. The Government’s amendment therefore applies the legislative clarification to Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland. It is important to bear in mind that the scope of application of the Human Rights Act matters to lots of other people beyond the care sector. The Government believe it is not appropriate to pick and choose which people or bodies are expressly made subject to the Human Rights Act; it should always be based on clear principles. That is why I want to make it clear that this amendment would not set a precedent for any future occasions where there are perceived to be gaps in the coverage of the Human Rights Act. The House of Lords warmly welcomed this amendment, and I hope that this House will do the same.

Care Homes

Debate between Norman Lamb and John Bercow

Thursday 1st May 2014 Commons Chamber

[Norman Lamb]

The hon. Gentleman makes a fair point. The difference in the providers that pay people properly is clear. Incidentally, domiciliary care is another area where there are concerns. My right hon. Friend the Member for Sutton and Cheam (Paul Burstow) visited Wiltshire recently, which has moved away from the old style of paying people a pittance and now gives care workers a salary. When that happens, the whole culture starts to change completely.

We must ensure that there is compliance with the minimum wage, as well as advocating wages that are better than the minimum. Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs has done a lot of work in the sector to address the abuse of the minimum wage regulations, which is far too widespread. It is completely intolerable for any care provider not to meet its statutory obligations. As the shadow Minister said, we have to ensure that when they commission care, councils cannot be complicit in an arrangement that they know will end up with people not receiving proper pay.

[Mr Speaker]

Nobody could accuse the fastidious Minister of excluding from the answers any consideration that he thinks might in any way be material. If he can combine that with reasonable economy, the House will be even more grateful to him than it is.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Norman Lamb and John Bercow

Tuesday 14th January 2014 Commons Chamber

[Norman Lamb]

I think that social isolation, if we are honest about it, has got worse over quite a long period, particularly as extended families have been dispersed far and wide. The answer has to be for the whole of society and must involve statutory services working together with the voluntary sector. In Cornwall, one of the pioneers in integrated care, there is a fantastic collaboration between the voluntary sector and the statutory sector to ensure that they directly address the problems with loneliness.

[Mr Speaker]

Last but not least and I hope with exemplary brevity, I call Tessa Munt.

Care Bill [Lords]

Debate between Norman Lamb and John Bercow

Monday 16th December 2013 Commons Chamber

[Barbara Keeley]

I thank the Minister for eventually giving way. I am surprised and disappointed that he is repeating the same type of inaccurate information that we heard from the Secretary of State earlier. Will he think about the point that I made in my speech? How hollow is it to talk to carers in Salford, 1,000 of whom are involved in families who are losing their care packages, about new rights? What rights are there for someone whose family member has lost their care package? That is what people face this year.

The Minister has also just repeated the ridiculous notion of the £3.8 billion for the integration of health care. That is not new money. It includes care—

[Mr Speaker]

Order. I call the Minister.

[Norman Lamb]

I note the position in Salford, and I recognise that finances in local government are tight. However, the Opposition have not recognised that 108 councils were already providing social care with substantial need as the eligibility criterion before the general election. They never mention that, but it is the truth.

Baroness Campbell has called the continuity of care provisions a “landmark reform”. Although we have heard the suggestion that we have somehow moved away from what Andrew Dilnot suggested, he has said:

“For the first time you don’t have to be terrified of the consequences of needing care…this system will radically reduce anxiety…It doesn’t seem to me that it’s so different from what we wanted.”

Several references have been made to the funding of social care, and as I have said, I fully recognise the tough financial settlement that local government has faced. However, that has been necessary because of the dire state of the public finances that we inherited from the Labour Government, and we have sought to protect social care. Despite what the hon. Member for Easington (Grahame M. Morris) and others have said, a recent budget survey by the Association of Directors of Adult Social Services showed that most of the savings that local councils have made have come through efficiency changes, and that services have largely been protected. [Interruption.] Well, that is what the survey showed.

As the population continues to age, our health needs become more complex, and it is essential that we continue to adapt. We need to ensure that the care and support system is sustainable, and the Bill lays the foundation for that sustainable system. At the top of the agenda has been the issue of how we pay for care. The current system simply does not work and is not fit for the 21st century. Too many people have faced catastrophic care costs and had to make impossible financial decisions at a time of huge personal crisis. It is deeply unfair. If someone who has worked hard all their life and budgeted carefully is unlucky enough to be diagnosed with dementia or some other condition, they lose pretty much everything they have ever worked for.

Through the Bill, we are putting an end to that unfair system. We have addressed how people can plan and pay for their care, following on from Andrew Dilnot’s recommendations. We have listened carefully to what he and his colleagues have said, and we have been absolutely consistent about how these reforms will support people to plan for their future effectively. From April 2016, extending the means-test support to £118,000 will immediately result in 35,000 more elderly people receiving financial help with their care costs. That figure will rise to 100,000 people getting extra help by 2024-25.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Norman Lamb and John Bercow

Tuesday 16th April 2013 Commons Chamber

[Norman Lamb]

My hon. Friend makes an extremely interesting point. Although I have not agreed to meet her, I would be happy to have an informal discussion with her at some later stage.

[Mr Speaker]

I think we will take that as a meeting.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Minister of State, Department of Health (Norman Lamb)]

I am tempted to say no, but I would not get away with it—so, yes, of course the hon. Lady can join all the rest and arrange to meet me. I would be very happy to discuss her concerns. While I am at the Dispatch Box, may I pay tribute to the International Centre for Life, which does really important work?

[Mr Speaker]

The Minister can report to his family just how popular a fellow he is.

NHS Commissioning Board

Debate between Norman Lamb and John Bercow

Tuesday 5th March 2013 Commons Chamber

[Norman Lamb]

I apologise, but I simply did not hear the question.

[Mr Speaker]

We wish it to be heard. The hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) must always be heard when he is on his feet. Let us hear it.

[Jim Shannon]

Perhaps I should give a lesson in Northern Ireland-speak. Will the Minister assure us that competition will be at the core of what he is trying to achieve and that the Government will prioritise clinical outcomes, with targets to deliver and an increasing number of patients to be looked after?

--- Later in debate ---

[Norman Lamb]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for the question. I spoke directly to Steve Field about this yesterday and I am absolutely satisfied that the amended regulations will totally meet the commitments made during the passage of the Bill in the other place.

[Mr Speaker]

I am grateful to the Minister and to colleagues.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Norman Lamb and John Bercow

Tuesday 26th February 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mr Speaker]

I think the hon. Gentleman was seeking an Adjournment debate and is disguising his request as a question, for which we are grateful.

[Norman Lamb]

I thank my hon. Friend for that question. I am happy to discuss it further with him. Value-based pricing will be primarily for new drugs, but obviously I understand his concern. It is the concern of the Government to ensure good access to cancer drugs for patients in the future.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Norman Lamb and John Bercow

Tuesday 23rd October 2012 Commons Chamber

[The Minister of State, Department of Health (Norman Lamb)]

The Government support transparency in publishing results of clinical trials, and they recognise that more can, and should, be done. In future, greater transparency and the disclosure of trial results will be achieved via the development of the European Union clinical trials register, which will make the summary results of trials conducted in the EU publicly available. Greater transparency can only serve to further public confidence in the safety of medicines, which is already robustly assured in the UK by the Medicines and Healthcare products Regulatory Agency. By law, the outcomes of clinical trials undertaken by companies must be reported to that regulator, including negative results.

[Mr Speaker]

Order. We are grateful to the Minister but some of these answers are simply too long. If they are drafted by officials, Ministers are responsible—[Interruption.] Order. I require no assistance at all from the Under-Secretary of State for Health (Anna Soubry). She should stick to her own duties, which I am sure she will discharge with great effect.

[Dr Wollaston]

I thank the Minister for his answer and for recognising that missing data from clinical trials distorts the evidence and prevents patients and their doctors from making informed decisions about treatment. Will the Minister meet a delegation of leading academics and doctors who remain concerned that not enough is being done to see how we can ensure that all historic and future data are released into the public domain?

[Norman Lamb]

My hon. Friend raises absolutely legitimate concerns, which have been raised by others, including Ben Goldacre. I am happy for my noble Friend Lord Howe or me to meet her and experts to discuss this important issue further.

[Mr Speaker]

I call Catherine McKinnell.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Norman Lamb and John Bercow

Thursday 24th May 2012 Commons Chamber

[Norman Lamb]

I will rise above it, absolutely.

Exports to the far east are growing very significantly. UK exports to China have grown by 15% over the past year, for example, and we are working hard to secure a free trade agreement with Japan, which would deliver significant benefits to the UK.

[Mr Speaker]

Iain McKenzie. Not here.

--- Later in debate ---

[Norman Lamb]

I can absolutely confirm that. It is always right to base policy on evidence—[Laughter.]

[Mr Speaker]

Order. The Minister is seeking to respond in a very professional way. Whether Members agree with him or not, they ought to hear him.

[Norman Lamb]

I am very grateful, Mr Speaker.

It is interesting to note that the evidence gathered from Germany suggests that there was very little change to the level of employment in small businesses after the reforms.