Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and Policing Bill

Debate between Norman Baker and Angela Smith

Tuesday 15th October 2013 Commons Chamber

[Norman Baker]

I do recognise that. That is a good reason why it is better to have flexible, general legislation rather than specific legislation that then creates loopholes. That is what the Opposition, who are well intentioned, would do if they had their way in the construction of antisocial behaviour legislation.

[Angela Smith]

Will the Minister give way?

[Norman Baker]

I must not, because I have lots of people to try to reply to. I am sorry.

I hope that I have been able to persuade Opposition Members that the approach put forward in the new clause is already provided for in the Bill. If they were minded to press it, I would invite the House to reject it. [Interruption.]

The hon. Member for Penistone and Stocksbridge (Angela Smith), who is seeking to intervene while I am trying to respond to her points, proposes to reduce the time delay that can take place following the seizure of a suspected section 1 dog, such as a pit bull terrier, before it is examined by expert witnesses for the defence or prosecution to assess whether it is a prohibited dog. I understand her concerns about the impact that such delays can have on the welfare of dogs. That is why we are committed to bringing forward regulations next year to make it clear that when the police seize a suspected prohibited dog they will not be required to kennel it, but only in cases where they are satisfied that the situation of dog and owner do not present a risk to public safety. It is right to give the police this discretion, and that is the aim that we intend to take forward. It will be a condition of release, if release occurs, that the owner consents to the dog being muzzled and on a lead in public, as well as being microchipped and neutered before it can be released back to the owner. This is to ensure public safety and to prevent breeding from section 1 dogs. On that basis, we do not consider the hon. Lady’s new clause 29 to be necessary.

I now want to deal with the amendments eloquently presented by my hon. Friend the Member for Chatham and Aylesford (Tracey Crouch), which seek to extend the offence in section 3 of the Dangerous Dogs Act 1991 to cover incidents where a dog injures or kills a protected animal. I entirely understand and sympathise with her reason for proposing that measure. She listed some of the existing legislation, which does have an effect and can be used in certain circumstances, including the Animal Welfare Act 2006, the Animals Act 1971, the Dogs Act 1871, and the Dogs (Protection of Livestock) Act 1953. It is rather unfortunate that the Criminal Damage Act 1971 classifies animals as goods or property in this respect.

I understand the concern of people whose cat is savaged by a dog, but the way forward is to consider other solutions. Instead of more legislation, we want better education for owners, training for dogs, and increased awareness among the public and the authorities who can use the new antisocial behaviour powers to address these incidents and help to prevent them before they happen.

I draw my hon. Friend’s attention to particular resources in legislation in respect of horses, which she mentioned. The Dangerous Dogs Act would apply in a situation where a dog threatens or attacks a horse and a rider, because the rider is likely to have “reasonable apprehension” that the dog will injure them, and therefore an offence would be created. My hon. Friend also referred to the livestock issues that I mentioned earlier. We are keen to make sure that other animals are protected. However, as I said, the general nature of the legislation provides options through, for example, the injunction procedure to see whether there are other avenues that can be taken to deal with dogs that present a danger to the public and, indeed, to other animals.

On amendment 142, tabled by the hon. Member for Penistone and Stocksbridge, I regret that because of the lack of time I will have to write to her with a specific response to the point she raises.

The actions that this Government are taking in tackling dangerous dogs are absolutely right. Everybody in the House agrees that that needs to happen better than it has done in the past, and I believe the Bill will achieve that. The provisions will enable all the dreadful acts that have been taking place to be tackled in a sensible and effective way.

Bus Services (Yorkshire and Humber)

Debate between Norman Baker and Angela Smith

Wednesday 17th April 2013 Westminster Hall

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport (Norman Baker)]

I will probably not require 44 minutes to respond to the debate, Mr Howarth. I welcome this topic, and I am grateful to the hon. Member for Leeds North East (Fabian Hamilton) for how he presented it. I am sorry that he is not here, but I fully accept his reasons. He is—not everybody in the House is, although perhaps I will get myself into difficulties—an honourable Member and a man of integrity, so I have no problem with the reason that he gave for not being here for the winding-up speeches. I thank him in his absence for securing time to discuss bus travel for young people in the Yorkshire and Humber region.

As I know from my constituency and from my role as a Minister, and as has been said this afternoon, buses are a lifeline for many people, including young people. They provide access to jobs, schools, health care and social activities. Good bus services contribute to both the Government’s key transport objectives: creating growth and cutting carbon. By providing an attractive alternative to the car, we can reduce not only harmful emissions, but, at the same time, the congestion that can choke off our local economies.

Buses are of particular importance to young people, as Members have indicated. More than half of students are frequent bus users and depend on the bus to get to education or training. Buses are used more frequently by young people, with the average 17 to 20-year-old making twice as many trips as people in other age groups.

In Yorkshire and Humber, two thirds of all bus trips by 11 to 15-year-olds involve travelling to or from school. Among 16 to 19-year-olds, 36% of all bus trips are for the purpose of education. A further 20% are for commuting. Young people in Yorkshire and Humber continue to use the bus when they start working. Some 37% of all bus trips by 20 to 25-year-olds are for the overall purpose of commuting. On average, young people in the Yorkshire and Humber areas make more bus trips per year than the average young person in England, which Members may not realise. Sixteen to 19-year-olds in the region make more than 200 bus trips per year, compared with 186 for England as a whole.

I fully recognise that the cost of young people’s travel can cause difficulty for those seeking employment, education or training. That is why, at last November’s UK bus awards, I urged the bus industry to be more innovative about the fare deals and discounts that it offers young people. I want the industry to build on initiatives such as the Confederation of Passenger Transport’s “BUSFORUS” web portal, which I encouraged the confederation to produce and which was launched last autumn. That interactive travel information website is designed with, and aimed precisely at, young people.

The Government appreciates that bus fares for young people vary a great deal across the country. In many cases, that is the result of operators responding to their local market. However, I am pleased to see that travel discounts are available to young people on many bus services in the Yorkshire and Humber areas, as has been mentioned this afternoon.

We have no immediate plans to legislate to set fares for young people or to introduce a statutory young person’s travel concession, but I think that a simpler fare structure would help, and in some areas bus operators could do more to offer discounted fares to young people. People who have decided to leave education and begin work—for example, as apprentices or in training schemes—may find the cost of bus fares a barrier. I am grateful to the hon. Member for Penistone and Stocksbridge (Angela Smith) for mentioning the offers that are available for some people coming off JSA into employment, particularly young apprentices. That is a good scheme and we are happy to endorse such schemes. Indeed, I have been promoting them through the local sustainable transport fund, as I imagine the hon. Lady knows.

It is worth pointing out, in response to the complaints of the hon. Member for Makerfield (Yvonne Fovargue) about lack of opportunities for young people, that the number of people in apprenticeships has risen by 88% since 2010. More than 1 million people have started apprenticeships since that time, so apprenticeships are a great success story for the coalition Government, and that point should not be neglected. There are of course issues that need to be dealt with sensibly, but some good things are happening and it is not fair to present a view of things as “woe, woe and thrice woe”, as I fear the hon. Lady tried to do.

Cheaper fares could make buses the mode of choice at an early age and lock in patronage for the future and help to reduce car travel. That is why, at the bus partnership forum in January, I asked the bus industry to consider offering travel discounts to all people aged 18 and under, not just those in education. A fares discount based on age seems far easier to administer than one relying on proof of education. I have encouraged the bus industry to do that because it is in its interest to identify people who want to use the bus and lock them in for future use for the rest of their lives. Potentially, they will be bus users for 50 or 60 years beyond their education time.

Interestingly enough, the legislation that regulates the bus industry, which we inherited in 2010, does not require bus operators to offer any reduced fares to young people. If Government intervened to enforce an age limit for charging an adult fare or legislated to create a national concessionary travel scheme for young people, local authorities would be obliged to reimburse bus operators for any revenue forgone; thus a financial burden would be imposed on local authorities, or, if that were reimbursed to them, there would be a further significant burden on the national taxpayer. In practice, bus fares are set at a commercial level by the operators. In general, despite the fact that there is no requirement to offer anyone below 18 a discount, operators offer free travel to under-fives and a reduced fare to those up to 15 or 16, although that varies considerably around the country.

[Angela Smith]

Does the Minister acknowledge that under the quality contracts introduced in the Local Transport Act 2008 integrated transport authorities could introduce requirements on fares, as well as on routes and frequency?

[Norman Baker]

Indeed they can, and they can get arrangements with bus companies through partnerships, as well. I shall return to quality contracts, because both the hon. Lady and the hon. Member for Leeds North East raised the point.

The Department for Transport carried out a survey of travel concession authorities in 2012. Those that responded said that about 40% of operators in their areas offered commercially discounted fares up to the age of 15 and a further 30% offered discounted fares up to the age of 18. Where operators offered concessions, they were mainly discounts of between a third and half the adult single fare. About a fifth of operators cut a quarter off the adult fare. That shows what an unfair and confusing patchwork of fares is available to young people. For the lucky minority, local bus operators will give a 50% discount to those under 18, but young people with access to a local bus service run by one of the 70% of bus operators who offer no discount to 16 to 19-year-olds are in an entirely different situation.

In a deregulated market, bus operators are in competition with each other, and if they were to agree specific fares for young people, it could be deemed anti-competitive. However, in principle, there seems to be nothing to prevent several operators in an area offering discounts to young people as a percentage of the adult commercial fare, whatever that may be. It will of course vary from service to service. That approach would offer young people a deal that is not universally available. There are areas where such an informal arrangement is already in place. In Norfolk, for example, there is a voluntary agreement between several bus operators to offer a standard discount to young people.

In addition to such informal arrangements, a local authority can decide on a discretionary basis to offer concessions to young people in its area. That is solely a matter for the local authority and such an enhancement would have to be funded locally. In Yorkshire and the Humber, all the local authorities have some form of local travel assistance for young people, and I am pleased about that. The integrated transport authority areas of South Yorkshire and West Yorkshire, as well as the city of York, issue travel cards that give young people discounted bus fares on the services of several local bus operators. The most rural authorities in the region, where there are fewer bus services, subscribe to the Wheels 2 Work scheme, which allows young people to hire a bicycle or a scooter for access to training and employment. In addition, all jobcentres in the country can provide jobseekers with discretionary support for travel costs, such as support for the cost of a bus fare to attend a job interview.

Therefore, while there is some support for 16 to 19-year-olds with transport costs, it is only ever offered on a commercial or discretionary basis, whereas the national scheme for older people gives free travel at off-peak times on any local bus service in England. The “BUSFORUS” web portal created by the industry—an initiative I welcome—has only further highlighted the disparity; a look at the bus operators’ web portal suggests that they have recognised that. We must do better for young people and give them more consistent and affordable bus fares. I am making that my top bus priority between now and the next election. Discussions are being held with the bus industry and colleagues across the Government to find a solution to the mess of patchwork concessions currently available to young people.

I mentioned the bus forum earlier, and hon. Members may know that it is an arrangement for interested parties to meet once every six months, under my chairmanship, for a round table to discuss bus issues. It may be of interest that, at my instigation, there is now a representative from the UK Youth Parliament, who attends regularly. I have engaged with members of the Youth Parliament and responded to a request to give evidence to their Select Committee hearing, and on behalf of the Government, I have responded formally to the recommendations. I assure hon. Members that we engage with young people, both directly in the Department for Transport, and through the UK Youth Parliament. It is important that young people’s voices should be heard, and I am determined that that will happen in our transport discussions.

As to the use of buses to get to education, all local authorities have a statutory duty to provide home-to-school travel where they consider it necessary to secure a child’s attendance at school. Legislation does not specify what the mode of transport must be, but it is generally a bus. Where transport is considered necessary, it must be provided free of charge. Transport must be free for those pupils attending their nearest suitable school, where that is beyond the statutory walking distances of two miles for pupils below the age of eight and three miles for those aged eight and above. There is also an additional entitlement to free home-to-school transport for children from low-income families. That provides additional support for attendance to those children who are entitled to free school meals or whose parents receive the maximum working tax credit.

Local authorities must make arrangements for children who are unable to walk to school because of special educational need, disability, or mobility problems, or who cannot reasonably be expected to walk because of an unsafe route. However, there are suggestions that some local authorities have reclassified, as safe, routes that were previously designated unsafe, to save money on providing school transport. Parents can appeal to their local authority about such a decision, but that is not always an independent process. Parents can complain to the local government ombudsman about the handling of such an appeal. However, that can be a lengthy process, and in the meantime, children could be walking potentially unsafe routes to school. I would expect local authorities to use the Department for Education’s guidance, which was published last month, to implement fairer and quicker processes for appeals. That, by the way, is an example of good cross-departmental co-operation between me and the hon. Member for East Worthing and Shoreham (Tim Loughton), when he was a Minister. He took the issue seriously and drove forward that agenda in the Department for Education.

Aside from their statutory obligations, local authorities have discretion to provide transport to all other pupils, for which a charge can be made. The increase in participation age will give more choice to young people who continue with education or training beyond the age of 16. They will have a range of options, including working full time alongside their studies or undertaking an apprenticeship.

Young people in work or on a waged apprenticeship will be able to pay for, or contribute towards, their transport costs. The £180 million bursary fund for 16 to 19-year-olds, which is administered by further education establishments, has the flexibility to meet transport costs for those in genuine need of support.

Local government finance continues to be challenging, but it is still disappointing that in a few areas, local councils have responded by taking the axe to local bus services, and I deplore that. I am naturally concerned when I hear that vulnerable people with few other transport choices have lost their only bus service, or that children have reduced public transport access to the school of their choice.

A few councils have taken an almost slash-and-burn approach, while others, I am happy to say, have been more considerate and careful in the decisions they have made. It is worth noting that 80% of services are commercially run and require no subsidy from local councils, so the services that some councils have cut have been from the 20% that are supported services.

Aside from the funding that Yorkshire and Humber receives through a Department for Communities and Local Government finance settlement, it has recently been awarded £20 million for the new bus rapid transit between Sheffield and Rotherham, almost £53 million for 11 local sustainable transport fund projects and £13 million for three better bus area 2012 bids.

In February, as part of the Sheffield city deal, to which the hon. Member for Penistone and Stocksbridge referred, we announced Sheffield’s designation as the first new better bus area. Sheffield’s deal will see devolution of bus service operators grant in the area to South Yorkshire PTE together with an immediate grant of £530,000 and further annual top-ups of just under £1.6 million a year. Those grants will better target bus subsidy in Sheffield. The package includes enhanced bus frequencies to major employment and education sites and reduced bus fares across bus operators.

The Department has also initially approved just over £173 million funding for the Leeds trolleybus. The outlook for buses in the Yorkshire and Humber area is rather more positive than Opposition Members might have concluded. The funding that my Department has allocated should see a marked improvement in bus services, which will encourage more young people on to the bus.

Let me deal briefly with the points that have been raised. The hon. Member for Leeds North East moaned about deregulation in 1986 and the impact that it has had on fares. I have to say to him gently, although he is no longer in the Chamber, that his Government did of course have 13 years to reverse that deregulation and failed to do so, so I take his enthusiasm now for reversing with some degree of scepticism.

The hon. Gentleman also talked about local authorities applying for quality contracts and being excluded from the BBA top-up. However, if he reads the guidance he will find that it says:

“Where a local authority can demonstrate that it has genuinely tried to engage in partnership working with local bus operators and this has been met with unreasonable resistance, should the local authority then decide to pursue a quality contract scheme, the Department will—upon request—exceptionally consider whether top-up funding could be provided when decisions are taken about the designation of any further tranche of BBAs.”

It is not true to say, therefore, that the two schemes are mutually exclusive.

[Angela Smith]

If I recall rightly, when the Minister was a member of the Bill Committee for the Local Transport Act 2008, he was much more positive about re-regulation than perhaps he is now. The whole point of quality contracts within the context of the 2008 Act was exactly that integrated transport authorities would be given the freedom to use quality contracts without having to jump over the hurdles that the Government seem to have reintroduced.

[Norman Baker]

I do not accept that. I repeat my earlier point: the hon. Lady’s Government had 13 years to reintroduce whatever it wanted, and did not do so, despite some cajoling from my colleagues and me at the time. However, the fact of the matter is that quality contracts remain on the statute book. The 2008 Act has not been changed in any shape or form. What we have done is to reintroduce further incentives for partnership working, which we think is right. After all, partnership working is the key to success. It is unlikely that we will see more people on buses in a local area if either the local authority or the transport operators are being difficult, so their working together is an essential prerequisite.

It is not true to say, as the hon. Lady claims, that there is a penalty for developing quality contracts. The quality contract regime has not changed at all. What we have is a reward for partnership working, which is an entirely different proposition. It is not true to say, as the hon. Member for Leeds North East has said, that BBAs and quality contracts are mutually exclusive; they are not, and I have just read out the relevant piece of the guidance that demonstrates that to be the case.

The hon. Member for Rotherham (Sarah Champion) talked about cuts in a way that made me feel that Armageddon had arrived. This is the fact of the matter: the overall bus mileage in England fell by just 1% between 2010-11 and 2011-12. I regret any fall in bus mileage, but 1% is not Armageddon. She might also want to know that, in 2011-12, there were 4.7 billion bus journeys in England, which is the highest figure since deregulation in 1986. Therefore, the suggestion that the bus industry is on its knees is perhaps not borne out by the statistics.

The hon. Member for Makerfield complained about the cut in bus service operators grant. I have to say again that, while I regret any cut in support for the bus industry, the fact of the matter is that we ensured that there was a soft landing by giving the bus industry around 18 months’ notice of the 20% cut. At the time—it is on the record—the industry said that it would be able to accommodate that because it had been given sufficient notice. That is in stark contrast to the lack of notice given by the Welsh Assembly Government, run by her party, which gave virtually no notice at all of changes to BSOG for operators in Wales.

The hon. Lady also complained about the profits of bus companies. As we are in a 1980s mood today in many shapes and forms, let me say that I detected a return to 1980s Labour-style theology, where profit is a dirty word and has to be removed from bus companies. That appeared to be the substance of what she was saying.

[Norman Baker]

The point the hon. Lady misses is this: it is in the interests of the bus companies themselves to invest for the future to generate more passenger traffic by having newer buses and a better service. That is indeed what they are doing. For example, the average age of the bus in this country is declining. We are seeing massive new investment in buses, not least of all through the Government’s green bus fund. The way to get more passengers is to provide the service that people want. Everybody in the bus industry understands that and they do it really quite well, as the figures on mileage and the number of bus journeys demonstrate very adequately.

[Angela Smith]

The Minister is being very generous with his time. May I ask him a simple question? In the 1980s, the whole bus system was regulated. London is still regulated. Why is it that what is good enough for London is not right for the rest of the country? Why cannot the rest of the country have the regulated bus service that London enjoys?

[Norman Baker]

The hon. Lady should have asked the Government in 1986 why it took that view and then her own Government why it did not reverse it in the 13 years between 1997 and 2010. However, there are advantages in both systems. Inside London, a plethora of empty buses can be seen, sometimes queuing up one behind another, which is not necessarily an efficient system. The cost of running that system is higher than it should be, so the London benefits are not as clear cut as she would have us believe.

Finally, let me pick up on the careless phrase that the hon. Member for Makerfield used when she talked about the coalition Government making “reckless” cuts to the UK transport system. I have to say to her that we are now seeing more people on the buses—4.7 billion bus journeys, which is higher than at any time since 1986. We have the biggest investment in the rail network since the Victorian era. We have 850 miles of electrification going on in the railway network, compared with 9 miles under her Government in 13 years. There are more people on the trains now than at any time since 1926. People who use public transport can be well pleased with what the Government is doing and I commend it to the House.

Transport and the Economy

Debate between Norman Baker and Angela Smith

Tuesday 28th February 2012 Commons Chamber

[Norman Baker]

I shall make some progress, if I may.

The performance of local councils across the country varies enormously in respect of buses. If the hon. Gentleman has had significant cuts in Durham, he must consider other areas, such as East Riding and so on, where there have been far fewer cuts. Local councils have responded in rather different ways to the difficult economic situation they find themselves in, and it is not fair simply to blame the Government for that. He needs to look at his local council and at the decisions it has made in its area.

I hope the hon. Gentleman will notice that, in trying to deal with the matter, we have given money to community transport, including in Durham. I have also announced a new fund, the better bus area fund, which his local authority has indeed applied for; and the local sustainable transport fund, which is worth £560 million and includes more money for the area than the previous Government invested over the same period, has provided funding for the Wheels to Work schemes, which I mention because he made a very fair point about the importance of ensuring that there is joined-up thinking between the Departments for Transport and for Work and Pensions. I have corresponded with the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions on the matter, and the discussions are ongoing because we recognise the important link between transport and work. The hon. Gentleman made a very fair point.

On regional growth, I was disappointed that the Committee Chair quoted the IPPR’s report without question because it is incomplete and partial, as she may remember I said when I dealt with it at Transport questions a couple of sessions ago. Its figures are unreliable. Of all the transport investment announced in the Chancellor’s autumn statement and in the 14 December announcement about local major schemes, 62% by value is in the north and the midlands and 35% is in the north alone. Similarly, of the strategic highway investments announced in the 2010 spending review, 63% by value is in the north and midlands and 40% is in the north alone. The spend in the autumn statement for the local authority majors totals over £3 billion of regional spending, of which 35% is in the north-east, north-west, and Yorkshire and the Humber, 27% is in the west and east midlands, and only 24% is in London and the south-east. I therefore do not recognise or accept the figures in the IPPR report.

[Angela Smith]

The Passenger Transport Executive Group has made it clear that there appears to be no basis for the figures given by the DFT to the Select Committee, which are reflected in its report. Will the Minister undertake to give a full written explanation of the basis of the figures that the DFT is using?

[Norman Baker]

The figures in the IPPR report need to be questioned rather than the Department’s figures. In her speech, the hon. Lady accused the Government of a lack of transparency, but that is completely wrong. There is now more transparency and consistency in decision making than there was under previous Governments. For example, we have published the internal assessments of all 41 approved local authority majors development pool schemes. We published details of the Highways Agency’s schemes at the 2010 spending review. That is a commitment the Under-Secretary of State for Transport, my hon. Friend the Member for Hemel Hempstead (Mike Penning), made and took through at the time. Every six months, we publish value for money data on all decisions.

[Angela Smith]

indicated dissent.

[Norman Baker]

There is no point in the hon. Lady shaking her head—these are the facts. We have also published a whole lot of transparency data sets that were previously kept secret. We have a very good record on transparency, which is very important for decision making centrally and locally.

My hon. Friend the Member for Staffordshire Moorlands (Karen Bradley) asked about pot holes. The amount of money being made available to deal with pot holes in the four-year period of the spending review is more than was made available by the previous Government. In addition, we have undertaken expenditure to get best practice identified across local authority works so that local authorities get better value for money and can therefore mend more pot holes or, indeed, prevent them from occurring in the first place. I recognise the importance of that matter for many of her constituents and no doubt people elsewhere in the country.

I entirely agree with my hon. Friend about the value of 20 mph limits, particularly outside schools. She will know, I hope, that I have made it possible for local authorities to introduce 20 mph limits, where they feel it appropriate to do so, much more easily and with much less bureaucracy than was hitherto the case. That has been well received by local government. She raised a fair point about school transport provision. I have been in ongoing discussions about that with my opposite number at the Department for Education, the Under-Secretary of State, my hon. Friend the Member for East Worthing and Shoreham (Tim Loughton); indeed, I am discussing it with him again tomorrow.

My hon. Friend asked about sat-nav. Next week I am holding a sat-nav summit to bring all the various players together. [Interruption.] Labour Members clearly do not think this is a serious issue, but I can tell my hon. Friend that Government Members do think so. We do not like HGVs going down inappropriate roads and getting stuck. If Labour Members do not mind that, that is up to them, but we are dealing with the issue in government.

My hon. Friend the Member for Manchester, Withington (Mr Leech) referred to the significant road and rail investments in the north-west. He put matters into context fairly, and I am grateful for that. He also, rightly, highlighted his support for HS2, which is essential not only for Manchester and Leeds but for points further north. The benefits of HS2 begin as soon as Birmingham is connected, when the first leg is in place, because trains will be able to run through to the north-east and journey times will be reduced accordingly. We want HS2 to be in place as soon as humanly possible, and if we can do anything to bring the timetable forward, we will. I note his strong support for the northern hub. I can only echo the comments of my right hon. Friend the Minister of State, who said that it was a really strong contender for control period 5. If that gets me into the Manchester Evening News, that is all to the good. I will try to get into the Leicester Mercury as well by saying that the midland main line is a strong candidate for CP5.

I am delighted to see my hon. Friend the Member for Pudsey (Stuart Andrew) here today. The hon. Member for Swansea West (Geraint Davies), who is no longer in his place, intervened on him to refer to the Cardiff to Swansea line. I do not know what the hon. Gentleman wants to achieve by electrification, but I point out to him that it is not necessary to change trains at Cardiff to get to Swansea. When electrification to Cardiff takes place, it will be perfectly possible, and indeed desirable, to run trains through in bi-mode operation without the necessity to change, and the speed gains that come from electrification will make it a much quicker and more pleasant journey to Swansea on new rolling stock. He ought to be pleased by that arrangement.

My hon. Friend the Member for Stockton South (James Wharton) has done a lot of hard work on behalf of his local airport, and we all recognise that. He asked in particular about the arrangements for public service obligations. I can tell him that it is open to regional stakeholders to apply to the Secretary of State to impose a PSO on an air route should they feel that a case can be made and it satisfies EU regulation 1008/2008. As he knows, the airport pushed for a PSO in 2009. There is an issue with the poor service at the railway station, and I will be happy to speak to him separately about that matter if that would be helpful.

My final point relates to comments about the Department’s alleged underspend, which was raised by the Chairman of the Select Committee and a couple of other Members. It is an important point. The level of underspend became apparent only towards the end of the year and could not have been predicted earlier. The money was used to increase expenditure in certain areas where results were deliverable in 2010-11 and represented good value for money. It would not have been right to scrabble around for something to spend on at the end of the year that was not good value for money; that would not have been a responsible use of taxpayers’ money. I also point out to the hon. Lady that a very large sum of that related to budget cover for depreciation and therefore was not, in any case, spendable cash in the traditional sense. The underspend arose largely because of the rail subsidy being lower than expected following the successful negotiations that we carried out with the train operators, which produced better than expected passenger numbers and a better deal for the taxpayer than hitherto might have been expected.

We have had a very good debate. The Government have demonstrated that we are committed to transport and the economy, committed to creating growth and jobs, and committed to cutting carbon emissions. We are getting on with it and doing a pretty good job.

Question deferred (Standing Order No. 54).

Pedestrian Access (Railway Stations)

Debate between Norman Baker and Angela Smith

Wednesday 14th December 2011 Commons Chamber

[Norman Baker]

Yes. My understanding was that the company was required to provide barriers, but I am looking to officials to see whether that is in fact the nuance of it. If there is any further information, I will give it to the hon. Gentleman before I finish my speech.

On ticket barriers—I want to talk about other aspects of the matter too, so the hon. Gentleman should not misinterpret what I say in the next few paragraphs—ticket gates are an efficient and proven method of significantly reducing ticketless travel and increasing rail revenue. That increased revenue has the effect of reducing the costs of the railways, as he will appreciate, for both taxpayers and rail passengers. As he will be aware, the cost of running the railways has increased by 60% in real terms since 1996-97. Sir Roy McNulty’s independent study estimates that UK rail costs are about 30% higher per passenger mile than those of our European competitors, so there is a big issue with general efficiency. Sir Roy McNulty’s study also goes on to state that the evidence suggests that

“the widespread introduction of gating at stations could reduce revenue lost through ticket evasion or the deliberate purchase of “wrong” tickets…The DfT data regarding rates of ticketless travel suggest it is about 12% in London compared with about 7% elsewhere.”

In addition, gated barriers at stations can bring a number of benefits to station users, rail passengers and the industry. Gates at stations are staffed when in use and therefore provide benefits to passengers in terms of safety and security through staff visibility. They also make it more difficult for non-ticket holders to access the railway, which potentially contributes to more enjoyable travel for fare-paying passengers.

The hon. Gentleman asked whether it was policy to require gating everywhere. I think it is a matter of horses for courses and each railway line and each station is different. It would not be sensible, for example, to install gating on very lightly used rural stations. That would be nonsensical in terms of the cost-benefit ratio. The Department and the train companies will estimate the likely consequence of not having a proper method to ensure ticketless travel is tackled—and I shall come to that in a moment—set against the cost of gating. He may be interested to know, for example, that I have recently required the installation of gating at Gatwick airport, a hole in the Southern network that has caused ticketless travel and been a magnet for those who wish to access the railway without paying.

[Angela Smith]

The point is, however, that as far as Sheffield is concerned, many of those found to be travelling without tickets boarded the trains at some of the rural stations to which the Minister has just referred. Clearly, as my hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield Central (Paul Blomfield) pointed out, the problem is that we have a scarcity of East Midlands Trains staff on the trains to ensure that people have paid for their tickets at stations further down the lines that serve Sheffield.

[Norman Baker]

Let me try to deal with the point about staff on trains. It is partly about franchise requirements—and, by the way, I am advised by officials that the barrier obligation is ongoing for East Midlands Trains, although alternatives would be considered if gating was not installed by a particular date, which I must say is an interesting franchise condition.

Members will appreciate that there is a significant cost to having staff on trains. Train companies employ revenue protection officers on a regular basis, but it is not possible—particularly on busy trains—to have any guarantee that the conductor, particularly when the train is busy and when there are frequent stops on the service, will be able to get through the train and check all the tickets. Indeed, the hon. Member for Sheffield Central said in his introduction that he is often unable to buy a ticket to travel on the train.

[Norman Baker]

I would not infer that at all. As I said a moment ago, if there are gates, staff are needed in case someone gets stuck in them. If the gates are unstaffed, they have to be left open. Gates are in fact a guarantee of staff on the station.

[Angela Smith]

The Minister mentions a problem with staff getting around to check all tickets on busy trains, but that underlines the fact that on the Penistone line, in particular, which runs into Sheffield station—it is a busy commuter route from Huddersfield and serves my constituents—we have a lack of capacity. So perhaps one answer is to have not just more staff on trains, but more trains.

[Norman Baker]

I entirely sympathise, but the hon. Lady makes a wider point, and I hope she notices that, notwithstanding our difficult economic situation and inheritance, we now have the biggest investment in railways since Victorian times, a commitment to improve rolling stock on several lines, an electrification programme that has extended way beyond what was originally anticipated and a tram-train pilot in Sheffield. There is a great deal of investment in transport, and any fair-minded person would look at the Government’s investment portfolio and conclude that, since May 2010, transport and, in particular, railways have done rather well.

The Chancellor’s growth statement included several roads that the hon. Lady may notice, but what was not picked up was that £1.4 billion extra is being allocated for rail, as against £1 billion for roads. So we are seeing massive investment in the railways, and that includes—[Interruption]—I wish she would not chunter in the background; I am trying to answer her questions—investment in rolling stock. There is a commitment to new rolling stock for the east coast main line and for the First Great Western line; new rolling stock is being introduced to the Thameslink programme; and we are continuing with our intention to bring in 2,700 new carriages.

I fully accept that we have a problem on the railways, in that more people than at any time since 1929 now travel by rail—if that is a problem—on a network that is between a half and two-thirds of the size it was in 1929. I call it a success in some ways, but it is called a problem in terms of its consequences. The public’s perception of their journey is also much more favourable than was the case even 10 or 15 years ago, and people now regard trains as safe, more punctual and more pleasant to use. That is a problem of success, so the inevitable consequence is that we have to follow people’s increased use of trains, which has largely been recession-resistant, and ensure that there are sufficient orders to pick up extra passengers.

One answer is to invest in high-speed rail, and, if the Secretary of State concludes when she makes her statement in due course that she wishes to pursue the Y-shape proposal, her decision will significantly benefit the Sheffield area, as well as everywhere else in the country. So I assure the hon. Member for Penistone and Stocksbridge (Angela Smith) that we are doing our best to ensure that there is real investment in carriages and infrastructure. That is quite a long answer to her point, but I hope it assures her that we take rail extremely seriously. Indeed, I would not be doing my job of lobbying within the Government if that were not the case, but I am happy to say that it is.

Let me return to the subject in hand. The welcome increase in the number of passengers using rail services in south Yorkshire—this point follows on from the one I have just made—has also brought problems that the Department is managing in conjunction with local stakeholders. For example, additional rail vehicles have been introduced to provide more capacity. Unmanned local stations are cheap to operate and improve access to rail services, but that does not make it any easier for on-train staff to collect and issue more tickets on board busy trains. Sheffield, as I have mentioned, has a particularly high level of ticketless travel.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Norman Baker and Angela Smith

Thursday 10th November 2011 Commons Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport (Norman Baker)]

The provision of bus services in rural areas, as in urban areas, is predominantly a matter for commercial operators and for local authorities. However, I recently provided £10 million of extra funding to local councils to help to develop community transport in their areas.

[Angela Smith]

Does the Minister accept that the equivalent of Beeching is going on in rural bus services, made in Whitehall and about which the national Government are doing nothing other than passing the buck to local authorities?

[Norman Baker]

No, I do not accept that. Almost four out of five bus services are provided commercially as opposed to being subsidised by local councils. So far there have been no cuts at all to support from central Government for those services. The BSOG—bus service operators grant—cut will come in next April. The performance of local authorities up and down the country is very varied. If she looks at East Riding, which is not very far from her, she will find that the Beeching cuts to which she refers are certainly not occurring there or in many other councils. Many councils are protecting bus services; some are not.