Finance Bill (Second sitting)

Nigel Huddleston Excerpts

Committee stage
Tuesday 16th January 2024 Public Bill Committees

[The Chair]

With this it will be convenient to discuss clause 36 stand part.

[The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Nigel Huddleston)]

Good afternoon, Mr Paisley. Clause 35 makes changes to improve the data collected by HMRC. That will enable HMRC to collect more accurate and timely information, helping to make tax easier to get right and harder to get wrong, and providing better outcomes for taxpayers and improving compliance. Clause 36 introduces a new simplified and fairer system of penalties for the late submission of tax returns and late payments of tax, for those taxpayers who voluntarily join Making Tax Digital for income tax self-assessment from 6 April 2024.

Turning to clause 35 in a bit more detail, the Government’s economic response to the pandemic was only made possible through the powerful use of data to make big policy decisions and deliver Government interventions. HMRC’s information about employers, employees and the self-employed was key to delivering both the furlough scheme and its self-employed equivalent, the self-employed income support scheme. The pandemic also highlighted gaps where a lack of data meant that the Government could not provide support to specific groups. For example, in the initial phases of the self-employed scheme, some self-employed people were excluded because they had only recently started a business and HMRC did not have the data needed to identify them and their potential entitlement to support.

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[James Murray]

As the Minister said, clause 35 makes changes to the types of tax return for which HMRC collects data. According to the Government’s policy paper on this matter, the modifications are for the purpose of improving and enhancing the quality of the data HMRC collects. We understand that the changes are designed to enable HMRC to create regulations specifying additional information it considers relevant to the collection and management of tax.

We understand that HMRC intends to implement three new requirements. First, employers will be required to provide more detailed information on employee hours worked by real-time information PAYE reporting. Secondly, shareholders of owner-managed businesses will be required to provide the amount of dividend income received from their own companies separately from other dividend income, and the percentage share they hold in their own companies via their self-assessment return. Thirdly, the self-employed will be required to provide information on start and end dates of self-employment via their self-assessment return.

The Opposition recognise that this is a significant change, and it is clear from the Government’s policy paper on this matter that it will also incur large costs for businesses. The one-off impact covering transitional costs for businesses is estimated to be £44 million, while the extra ongoing annual administrative burden is estimated to be £9.6 million. The Chartered Institute of Taxation has conveyed its concerns that it seems unrealistic that the average transitional costs to businesses of providing the data on employee hours will be just £18.42. Does the Minister believe that the costings are accurate for businesses that will need to plan for the new requirements?

Beyond the forecast costs to businesses, there is also the question of data gathering and its purpose. This clause gives HMRC the power to collect taxpayers’ data. Is the Minister confident that the legislation provides appropriate authorisation for the purposes of the measure? The Institute of Chartered Accountants in England and Wales is concerned that it has not been fully explained why data concerning employee hours is relevant for the purposes of the collection or management of the taxes listed in section 1 of the Taxes Management Act 1970. The Institute believes that the legislation will not work to obligate employers to report hours worked to hours paid, as hours worked are not needed for the collection and management of tax. I would be grateful to know the Minister’s response to this concern.

We recognise that the timescale for introducing these measures is 2025-26, which will require HMRC to be ready and businesses to have got to grips with the necessary processes, guidance and software by then. What engagement has the Minister or HMRC had with businesses about this timescale, and has the Treasury considered drafting regulations for consultation prior to the legislation being enacted?

Clause 36 makes changes to the existing regulation-making powers that enable the Treasury to bring into force the penalties set out in schedules 24 to 27 of the Finance Act 2021. The new system that the schedules in the 2021 Act introduced will impose points-based sanctions for late submissions of returns and penalties for late payment of tax liabilities. We understand that the Government are planning for this system to come into effect with relevant self-assessment customers from 6 April 2026, through Making Tax Digital. Our understanding is that clause 36 will affect only volunteers who agree to test out the MTD system, which will therefore be before 6 April 2026. For the avoidance of doubt, will the Minister confirm that that is the case and make absolutely clear what penalties and sanctions such volunteers could face? Could he also confirm exactly what is meant, in the explanatory notes to the Bill, by the phrase:

“Where a change in circumstances means that HM Revenue and Customs does not have the functionality to support a customer, they may be moved back into the existing penalty regime.”?

There is a wider question about the timetable for delivering Making Tax Digital, which has slipped again and again. I would therefore be grateful if the Minister could make clear whether he has full confidence that the introduction of MTD for the self-assessment customers who are mandated for it is on track to happen by 6 April 2026.

[Nigel Huddleston]

I thank the hon. Gentleman very much for those questions and comments. I think he has a good understanding of the purpose behind the changes we are making, particularly in the context of the anxiety that many of our constituents face. We all had correspondence on this during the pandemic, when people were frustrated at not necessarily being able to get some of the support mechanisms for which they believed they were eligible because of that lack of information and data.

The macro point and the purpose behind the changes is well understood, and the hon. Gentleman is right to focus on the micro points. When it comes to the voluntary process, for example, which I will come on to in a moment, the whole point of having it is to learn before we make it mandatory. We expect and anticipate that we will need to learn from this experience, but going through that voluntary step first seems like a good process.

The hon. Gentleman mentioned the administrative burden on businesses as a result of this ask. We have chosen three out of the six because the information should be on hand or readily available already, so what we are endeavouring to do should be relatively straightforward. HMRC has been exploring with stake-holders how best to implement the proposals in a way that minimises burdens on businesses. No one wants to put a disproportionate administrative burden on businesses, but for the reasons that I outlined in the introductory comments, we see an upside to asking for the information. In practical terms, it will help nudging and supporting businesses to ensure that their taxes right. Should we face a situation such as the pandemic again, we will be in a much better position to understand the nature of businesses.

The hon. Member for Ealing North mentioned data and gave a total cost of £45 million for implementation of the measures. For the hours-worked data, the total estimated one-off cost to businesses is about £35 million. In subsequent years, the ongoing cost will and should be negligible. For the dividends data, the total estimated up-front cost is about £9 million; again, that remains consistent for subsequent years. For the start and end dates, there are negligible one-off costs, with total year-on-year costs estimated at about £600,000. Those costs are the current estimates based on the standard modelling approach and the measuring of administrative burden. We will of course keep a close eye on the costs.

I mentioned the variety of purposes and means by which that information could be useful, but the hon. Gentleman also made a point about information sharing, an issue that many stakeholders raised in the process of our updating this policy. I should note the work of the House of Lords Sub-Committee that investigated these issues and asked me similar questions not so long ago. I refer hon. Members to the answers I gave there, as well as further support. I want to provide the assurance, however, that there are strict laws about the sharing of data between Departments.

HMRC’s ability to disclose the information it holds to anyone is restricted by the Commissioners for Revenue and Customs Act 2005. Only by acting in accordance with the provisions of the Act can HMRC ensure that information is disclosed in a lawful way. Section 18 of the Act provides that HMRC must not disclose HMRC information to anyone unless there is a lawful authority to do so, and that includes other Departments and their agencies, local authorities, the police or any other public authority.

As I said, I am happy to respond further to the hon. Gentleman or to make further comments if I have not answered all the questions. However, I commend the clause to the Committee.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 35 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 36 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 37

Abbreviations used in the Act

Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.

[The Chair]

With this it will be convenient to discuss clause 38 stand part.

[Nigel Huddleston]

Finally, clauses 37 and 38 simply set out the Bill’s legal interpretation and short title in the usual manner for such legislation. I commend them to the Committee.

[James Murray]

We have no concerns about clauses 37 and 38, you will be pleased to hear, Mr Paisley.

As this may be the last time I get to contribute to the debate today—

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[Nigel Huddleston]

It will not surprise you to learn, Mr Paisley, that I respectfully disagree with many of the comments made by the hon. Member for Inverness, Nairn, Badenoch and Strathspey. The Government are—[Interruption.] As I said and as always, I disagree respectfully. The Government are fully committed to delivering on our legal obligations to reach net zero emissions by 2050. The net zero strategy and the “Powering Up Britain” publication set out the actions that the Government will take to keep the UK on track for its carbon budgets, and establish the long-term pathway to net zero. The UK has already made good progress, reducing emissions by 48% between 1990 and 2021, faster than any other G7 country.

The autumn statement delivered the cross-economy enabling environment for investment that will be vital to deliver the net zero transition. It did so with measures such as permanent full expensing for plant and machinery investments, accelerating grid connections, and reforming planning. The package provides long-term certainty for industry to invest in decarbonisation and supports firms through the transition.

The Secretary of State for Energy Security and Net Zero is responsible for upholding duties under the Climate Change Act 2008, but His Majesty’s Treasury and HMRC consider climate change and the environmental implications of relevant tax measures, with a climate assessment published in all relevant tax information and impact notes. HMT and HMRC are exploring options to strengthen the analytical approach to monitoring, evaluating and quantifying the environmental impacts of tax measures.

Given all the work that is under way and the substantive work on these issues that has already taken place, I urge the Committee to reject new clause 1.

Question put, That the clause be read a Second time.

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[Drew Hendry]

I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.

As the explanatory statement suggests, this is the opportunity for the Chancellor to publish an assessment of the impact of the Act on public finances and the cost of living crisis. The cold weather is really biting today across the nations of the UK, and people are having to turn up their heating to be able to simply survive. They are suffering already higher energy bills, boosted by the further 5% increase at the start of this month. The same families are struggling with soaring food costs, higher rents, higher mortgages and much more. The SNP’s issue with the Bill lies primarily in what has been omitted: help for those struggling families.

The UK Government seem determined to completely ignore the realities facing people across the UK. For example, just a few days ago, it was revealed that a quarter of a million children could be lifted out of poverty if the UK Government took the simple and humane step of scrapping the two-child limit, with an additional 850,000 children pulled out of deepening poverty if the policy was removed. In the absence of such measures, and many others to support people suffering from the cost of living crisis, such as the £400 energy rebate that we called for, we believe that it is incumbent on the UK Government to report on the measures that they are taking and how they are affecting the cost of living, particularly in relation to rising household costs.

[Nigel Huddleston]

I afraid that we are going to have yet another phase of respectful disagreement with the hon. Gentleman.

New clause 2 would require the Government to report on the likely impact of the measures in the Bill on public finances and the cost of living. Numerous Departments and Government bodies already have mechanisms in place to systematically monitor and evaluate the impact of Government policy on public finances and households across the UK. Those mechanisms are effective and ongoing, making the proposed new clause redundant.

It is the role of the Office for Budget Responsibility to produce official forecasts for the public finances twice a year, usually alongside a fiscal event. Those forecasts are produced independent of Ministers, objectively, transparently and impartially, as set out clearly by law. Furthermore, when considering specific pressures on the cost of living, mechanisms are already in place to assess the impact of Government policies on households’ personal finances. The Office for National Statistics plays a role in providing monthly updates through its “Cost of living latest insights” article, offering comprehensive data and showing trends.

In addition, our commitment extends to long-standing surveys and initiatives, including the family resources survey initiated in 1992; the living costs and food survey, which commenced in 2008; and the annual survey of hours and earnings, which has collected data since 1998. The Department for Work and Pensions also plays a crucial role with the annual publication of the “Households below average income” report, which monitors poverty and inequality trends across the UK, with emphasis on the wellbeing of the most vulnerable members of society.

Since 2010, His Majesty’s Treasury has published an “Impact on households” report at major fiscal events, to scrutinise the distributional impact of Government measures on personal finances across income groups. Distributional analysis published at the autumn statement 2023 shows that the typical household at any income level will see a net benefit in 2023-24 and 2024-25 following Government decisions made from autumn statement 2022 onwards. Low-income households will see the largest benefit as a percentage of income. Furthermore, looking across all tax, welfare and spending decisions made since the spending round 2019, the impact of Government action continues to be progressive, with the poorest households receiving the largest benefit as a percentage of income in 2024-25.

We believe that the mechanisms currently in place are effective in providing the necessary insights into the impact of the measures proposed in the Bill. In the light of those efforts and commitments, I urge the Committee to reject new clause 2.

Question put, That the clause be read a Second time.

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Mr Paisley, thank you very much for your indulgence. Professor Sir Michael Marmot finished his piece in The BMJ by asking us to provide hope that we, as politicians, recognise and understand that we cannot go on like this. I agree with him. I will not press my new clause to a vote, but I urge Ministers to consider this matter seriously.

[Nigel Huddleston]

I should state at the beginning of my remarks that I completely understand the intent of new clause 3, because the hon. Lady is raising issues that are of great concern to hon. Members right across the House. However, she will not be surprised to hear that, once again, I respectfully disagree with her on the need for these assessments. We believe the proposed new clause is redundant because there are existing mechanisms in place to monitor and evaluate the impact of Government policy on public health inequality and poverty.

[Debbie Abrahams]

On that basis, I did ask a question at the autumn statement. In relation to the social security measures, I asked what were the anticipated impacts on the health of social security claimants. I have heard nothing back from anyone on that. If that evidence exists, what is it?

[Nigel Huddleston]

I shall respond to the hon. Lady on the plethora of analysis and support that goes on for a range of policy areas. We are not lacking in either interest in this area or consideration of impact. As I said, there are numerous Government Departments, bodies and other mechanisms already in place to systematically collect, monitor and evaluate the impact of Government policy across the UK.

The Department of Health and Social Care and its arm’s length bodies are responsible for developing and evaluating policies to help people to live more independent, healthier lives for longer. As part of DHSC, the Office for Health Improvement and Disparities works across DHSC, the rest of Government, the healthcare system, local government and industry, to shift focus toward preventing ill health, particularly in places where there are the most significant disparities. DHSC also invests in research and evaluation through the National Institute for Health and Care Research, which delivers robust evidence to inform policy development and implementation, including evaluation of policies and research to fill longer term evidence needs and gaps.

The Treasury carefully considers the impact of its decisions on those sharing protected characteristics, in line with both our legal obligations and our strong commitment to providing fairness. We go beyond our legal requirements by publishing a summary of equality impacts for tax measures within the tax information and impact notes alongside the Finance Bill.

Various parts of Government, including from within the Cabinet Office’s equality hub, promote the Government’s commitment to levelling up opportunity and ensuring fairness for all. The hub includes the Government Equalities Office, the Race Disparity Unit, the Disability Unit, and the Social Mobility Commission, all of which provide valuable input.

As I mentioned in answer to new clause 2, since 2010 the Treasury also publishes an “Impact on households” report at major fiscal events, but I will not repeat the comments I made there. The “Households below average income” report also provides valuable input. For example, in 2021-22, there were 1.7 million fewer people in absolute poverty after household costs than in 2009-10, including 400,000 fewer children, 1 million fewer working-age adults, and 200,000 fewer pensioners. We believe the mechanisms currently in place are effective in providing the necessary insight, so I urge the Committee to reject new clause 3.

[Debbie Abrahams]

I beg to ask leave to withdraw the clause.

Clause, by leave, withdrawn.

Question proposed, That the Chair do report the Bill to the House.

[Nigel Huddleston]

On a point of order, Mr Paisley. Before you conclude your comments, I think this is an appropriate opportunity for me to make similar comments and thanks to those made by my opposite number. I agree with everything he said. I put on record my thanks to you, Mr Paisley, and your co-Chair, who did not have the opportunity to participate in this Bill; there will be other opportunities in the future.

Of course, I thank the Clerks and all officials who have worked on this Bill across multiple Government Departments, including His Majesty’s Treasury and His Majesty’s Revenue and Customs, but it goes well beyond that. I thank members of the Committee in this place, and also members of the House of Lords Sub-Committee for their input and work. I also thank all those stakeholders who have provided invaluable input. Some have provided specific input recently in the form of written submissions to this stage of the process, but many have participated over many years in extensive formal and informal consultations. I put on record our deep gratitude and thanks to all those who have taken their responsibilities and interests incredibly seriously, providing great input into this Bill to date.

[The Chair]

Thank you for those comments, Minister. We have had a brace of Ministers, shadow Ministers and Committee Clerks. We did not have a brace of Chairs, but we did have the Statler and Waldorf-esque Parliamentary Private Secretaries in a brace. Thank you all for this vital work that Parliament does. The line-by- line scrutiny of the Bill is serious work, and people taking their time to really do this line-by-line is appreciated. I know that the staff, Clerks and Hansard will be appreciative of your kind comments, Minister, and yours too, Mr Murray.

Question put and agreed to.

Bill accordingly to be reported, without amendment.