Digital Economy Bill (Second sitting)

Nigel Huddleston Excerpts

Committee Debate: 2nd sitting: House of Commons
Tuesday 11th October 2016 Public Bill Committees

[Drew Hendry (Inverness, Nairn, Badenoch and Strathspey) (SNP)]

I do not have any direct interests, but for full transparency I draw the Committee’s attention to my share ownership in Teclan Ltd, which is in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests.

[Nigel Huddleston (Mid Worcestershire) (Con)]

Again for full transparency, prior to becoming an MP I worked for Google, in which I have a small share interest at the moment.

[Nigel Adams (Selby and Ainsty) (Con)]

As I stated in the earlier session, I am a director and shareholder of two telecommunications businesses, and I believe my wife is also a director and shareholder.

Examination of Witnesses

David Austin and Alan Wardle gave evidence.

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[Nigel Adams]

Q Mr Austin, what constructive conversations and meetings have you had with ISPs thus far, in terms of the potential for blocking those sites—especially the sites generated abroad?

David Austin: We have not had any conversations yet, because we signed the exchange of letters with the Government only last Thursday and it was made public only today that we are taking on this role. We have relationships with ISPs—particularly the mobile network operators, with which we have been working for a number of years to bring forward child protection on mobile devices.

Our plan is to engage with ISPs, search engines, social media—the range of people we think are ancillary service providers under the Bill—over the next few weeks and months to see what we can achieve together. We will also be talking to the adult industry. As we have been regulating pornography in the offline space and, to an extent, in the online space for a number of years, we have good contacts with the adult industry so we will engage with them.

Many companies in the adult industry are prepared to work with us. Playboy, for instance, works with us on a purely voluntary basis online. There is no law obliging it to work with us, but it wants to ensure that all the pornography it provides is fully legal and compliant with British Board of Film Classification standards, and is provided to adults only. We are already working in this space with a number of players.

[Nigel Huddleston]

Q Obviously, the BBFC is very experienced at classifying films according to certain classifications and categories. I am sure it is no easy task, but it is possible to use an objective set of criteria to define what is pornographic or disturbing, or is it subjective? How do you get that balance?

David Austin: The test of whether something is pornographic is a test that we apply every single day, and have done since the 1980s when we first started regulating that content under the Video Recordings Act 1984. The test is whether the primary purpose of the work is to arouse sexually. If it is, it is pornography. We are familiar with that test and use it all the time.

[Nigel Huddleston]

Q In terms of skills and resources, are you confident you will be able to get the right people in to do the job properly? I am sure that it is quite a disturbing job in some cases.

David Austin: Yes. We already have people who have been viewing pornographic content for a number of years. We may well need to recruit one or two extra people, but we certainly have the expertise and we are pretty confident that we already have the resources. We have time between now and the measures in the Bill coming into force to ensure that we have a fully effective system up and running.

[The Minister for Digital and Culture (Matt Hancock)]

Q I just want to put on the record that we are delighted that the BBFC has signed the heads of agreement to regulate this area. I cannot think of a better organisation with the expertise and the experience to make it work. What proportion of viewed material do you think will be readily covered by the proposed mechanism in the Bill that you will be regulating the decision over but not the enforcement of?

David Austin: I am not sure that I understand the question.

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[Louise Haigh]

Q In that period of consultation, was the detail around transparency never discussed?

Dr Whitley: It depends. There has been talk along the lines of there being codes of practice and liaison with the Information Commissioner’s Office, so at a very high level there has obviously been some discussion. But at the very specific level—for example, the civil registration clauses talk both about allowing a yes/no check around whether there is a birth certificate associated with a family, while on the other hand there will be bulk data sharing within Government so that different Departments can know stuff and possibly make things better for society.

One half of that seems to be quite specific, and you can see how it could well be designed as a simple “Does a birth certificate exist for this person?” and the answer is yes or no. The privacy protections around that are reasonably well known and not very much data is being shared. Then the other illustration just says, “we will share these data with other bits of Government” and there is nothing there about what kind of privacy protections might be put in place. There are many different ways in which that can be done, but until we have some specific details, we cannot give you sensible reviews as to whether that is a good or not so good way of doing it.

[Nigel Huddleston]

Q Mr Coates, what role should wireless technologies play in achieving the universal service obligation?

Scott Coates: There is no doubt that for the last 5%, maybe a greater proportion than that, wireless technologies have a significant role to play. Six of the seven trials run by the Department for Culture, Media and Sport earlier this year were of a wireless-based structure. I think there is a role for it. It is also interesting, as you look beyond 10 megabits to the future when universal service means something far more substantial than that, that a new disruptive technology is coming.

Everyone is talking about 5G; it does not really exist at this stage, but we know it is going to be ultra-high bandwidth, ultra-low latency, with the potential to be a disruptive technology and replace fixed line to the home. Some countries around the world that have not had the wave of fixed line technology roll-out will be moving straight to wireless as their domestic broadband service.

[Nigel Huddleston]

Q What kind of timescales were you thinking about for the achievement of 5G?

Scott Coates: With 5G, it is really hot and talked about now, but it is still some way off. Mobile operators will market it strongly and talk about it strongly, but there was something last week from France Telecom admitting it does not know what it is yet, and that is the substance of the matter.

As we come in to the early 2020s, at the beginning of the next decade, we will start to see something. Interestingly, the infrastructure that is going to enable it is starting to go down now, so particularly in urban areas; as the concentration of cell sizes needs to get smaller and smaller, the infrastructure needed to power faster 4G services will ultimately be the infrastructure used to power 5G.

Coming back to the structure of the industry, it is critical that there is a competitive infrastructure market for 5G. As a new technology that is a combination of wireless and fibre, it has the opportunity to have multiple infrastructure parties competing. It also carries the risk of being a monopolised infrastructure.

[Nigel Huddleston]

Q Is this roll-out likely through purely commercial models or do you see a role for some kind of Government support here?

Scott Coates: In terms of using wireless to achieve USO, mobile as a technology has a very clean and efficient way of pushing out coverage to rural parts of the population, and that is through the licences. There is another major round of licensing, with something called 2.3 and 2.4, which is coming soon.

There is also 700 MHz, which is a really powerful frequency for delivering coverage into rural areas and which has already been licensed in many European countries. It is not licensed here yet, but the rules of those licences create an opportunity to get coverage out to the most rural parts of the country. You could do things like in Germany, where they said rural areas have to be covered before urban areas. That is the most efficient way of unlocking coverage from a wireless perspective in rural areas.

[Scott Mann (North Cornwall) (Con)]

Q One of the biggest challenges facing coastal and rural communities like mine is the problems with undulating coastlines and areas of outstanding natural beauty. I am interested in your thoughts on how we can strengthen the Bill to make sure we get out to some of the rural areas left behind in the past.

Scott Coates: I refer you back to the last question. The most efficient way to deal with that is through the licences. There is licensing coming up that will create an opportunity. Unfortunately, it is going to be a few years before the airwaves that deliver that are available for deployment.

There is a lot of activity happening in the sector at the moment. The mobile operators are very busy investing in their networks and we are working hand in hand with them to help them deliver that. I know we are building new towers in coastal areas right now; I do not know if we are building one in your constituency. So it is getting better. Bear in mind that the Government struck a deal with the mobile operators 18 months ago and the operators are busy investing on the back of that. In the last 4G licence, when the 800 MHz got auctioned, one of the licence lots, bought by Telefónica, required it to cover more of the country, so Telefónica is investing on the back of that as well.

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[The Chair]

Two more questions to this set of witnesses.

[Nigel Huddleston]

Q Dr Whitley, are you excited by the potential opportunities of the use of big data by Government?

Dr Whitley: This is not about big data but data-sharing, but there are opportunities there for big data to be used. There are questions about how you manage it and about how you handle it.

One of the other things that I am involved with is a steering group for the Administrative Data Research Network, which is where administrative data can be used by researchers in very strictly controlled environments to answer interesting research questions, generate hypotheses and explore those hypotheses by matching data from various different Government datasets. But that is done in a very locked down, secure environment with no mobile phones and no taking out of data and so on. So there absolutely are opportunities, but doing it right is what I particularly care about.

[Nigel Huddleston]

Q We are one of the most sophisticated digital economies on the planet and we have some of the brightest brains on the planet. Surely we can work this out.

Dr Whitley: Yes. The process has been going on for three years and we still do not have codes of practice. That is the bit that puzzles me. If we have all these brilliant brains can they not put together even a draft code of practice, so that we can know what we are talking about?

For example, in the consultation around fuel poverty, it talked about gathering data and matching up potential houses and individuals who might benefit or be at risk, and it says that they will inform the licensed energy suppliers as to which of their customers should receive assistance. That, to me, sounds like a push: “Here is a big set of customers that may or may not belong to your company. Check through that list to see whether or not any of them are your customers and give them a fuel discount.”

But then a couple of paragraphs further on—this is the consultation relating to the proposals—the Government would simply have an eligibility flag along with customers’ names or addresses for doing that. Even in the consultation, it does not seem that these brilliant minds have been applied as well as they could be.

[Nigel Huddleston]

Q Once we work that out, which I am confident we will, where are the opportunities? Where is the up side? Where is the positive stuff coming out of this? How can Government be better as a result of this? I am always an optimist.

Dr Whitley: Done right, there are fantastic opportunities. Government is digitising. The GDS has got lots of experience about how to manage and handle and do attributes checking, which is what most of this is. There are definitely opportunities and the skills, but somehow something has gone wrong with regard to these proposals.

It is not as if the proposals have been rushed through in the past few minutes. We have been looking at these and asking for more details since July 2013 and we are still here without even a resemblance of a code of practice. Part 5 has six codes of practice that need to be developed and none of them is here. Yes, please, but some detail. I am academic; I want to see the detail.

[Louise Haigh]

Q As you say, it is an enormous shift in terms of data sharing within Government. Clause 29 would allow personal data on citizens to be shared if there is a

“contribution made by them to society”

or wellbeing to be gained. That basically covers anything, doesn’t it? Why have the Government not produced even a draft code of practice at this stage? How can we possibly be expected to vote on this while plainly placing blind faith in the Government?

Dr Whitley: You are basically saying what I was going to say. If you compare the comprehensive replies that Mr Coates has been able to give, talking about very specific details, with the vague “we don’t know anything” comments that I have made, you see that it is a real problem and also an issue for more general scrutiny of technological issues. If you do not have details about the different mobile phone frequencies that you are talking about, you cannot make detailed policy. Yet when it comes to data sharing, there is a sense that it will all work out in the end because we have the right people to do it.

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[Nigel Adams]

Q What do you think is a reasonable limit? Where would you set the limit?

Jim Killock: In terms of taking someone to court, there is no particular limit. If I cause £20 of damage to somebody where I should have paid it, the small claims court should be available and I should be able to either prosecute someone or be prosecuted in a civil court in the normal way. The question of how much is “serious” is, in all likelihood, something we should probably leave to the discretion of judges. It will not be very easy to fix a particular amount, but I think “serious” is usually the word used.

[Nigel Huddleston]

Q As you have already recognised, this part of the Bill has already been subject to a consultation. There were 282 responses to that consultation, with the majority of them being broadly supportive. You have raised quite a few perfectly valid concerns, but do you accept that there is broad public support for the sharing of data when there is a clear social upside?

Jim Killock: I think we are all clear that data sharing should be enabled. The question is how you do that without it being a completely wide open process. The principle is not something that anyone has ever objected to.

Renate Samson: On the consultation that you referred to, you just told me that there were 282 submissions and that most of them were broadly supportive, but the Government response did not indicate who was supportive and who was not, and I have not seen the submissions on the website to be able to see for myself who was broadly supportive and who was not.

Having been part of the open policy making process, I would say that several people in that room had a large number of concerns. They were not concerns to prevent data sharing, but concerns to ensure that data sharing could happen in the safest way possible, and not just in terms of privacy. That way, not only can Government benefit from it and clear processes can be established in Government, but the citizen can understand why their data are being shared and can then be supportive of it and can trust that their data are going to be looked after. It is about the citizen being able to feel as though their personal data, which are now part of the air we breathe in a connected, digital society—we cannot function without our data—are safe and secure. It is about not only data being private, because there are varying degrees of privacy, particularly when you are sharing, but the Government understanding that.

[Nigel Huddleston]

Q I am not sure whether we got a clear answer there. The Commons Library published a briefing, which includes statistics from an Ipsos MORI survey that you have probably seen before. The things that get public support are things such as:

“Creating a DNA database of cancer patients…Using data from electronic travel cards…to improve the scheduling of buses or trains…Using police and crime data to predict and plan for crimes that might take place in future”.

There is a clear public upside for some of the most vulnerable and hurt people in society; are we ever going to reach a point where you are satisfied with the use of data?

Renate Samson: You took evidence this morning from two witnesses whom you asked a very similar question, and I support the answers that they gave. People are happy to share data if they understand why and are asked. I believe that the answer you were given earlier referred to the individual. If you ask me whether I am happy to share my data to cure cancer, I go away and I make the decision about whether or not I am happy to do that. As you have pointed out, the majority of people are probably going to say, “Yes, of course.” Big Brother Watch has no desire to restrict that. We are asking for information that we feel is lacking from part 5 of the Bill. We are asking for information for the individual so that they can give their consent based on proper guidance. That is going to be a key part of data protection law going forward.

This is about the way the questions are being asked. Similar questions have been asked throughout the day. We are not trying to say no. We have never said no. We are just trying to say, “Please present us with as much information as possible, so that we can see how.”

Jim Killock: It is really in the interests of Government to get this right, because in the long term it is a matter of trust. We know that accidents happen. If at least the safeguards are in place and as many accidents are avoided as possible, and if people are not left embarrassed at either data leaks or programmes that turn out to be intrusive or prejudicial against people, then you have won. That really was the purpose of the open policy process: to ensure that the risks were understood so that the Government could legislate on the basis of dealing with the complex risks rather than heading straight into a situation where they got a huge backlash and/or stored up problems for the future.

Renate Samson: May I add something quickly? The first line of Big Brother Watch’s submission says that we support data sharing across Government. I want to be very clear on that.

My second point is about individuals doing well out of this. The Bill, well, the factsheets accompanying the Bill, refer to wellbeing. I direct you all to the Supreme Court’s review of the named persons scheme in Scotland, where it was deemed that wellbeing was not a high enough bar—it did not meet the bar of “vital”, which the Data Protection Act requires. We want to do this properly so that people can benefit, but let us ensure that it is proper—that is not perfect, but the best it can possibly be.

[Matt Hancock]

Q A couple of questions. Would you be happy to share your blood type data to help cure cancer?

Renate Samson: I do not even know what my blood type is. To answer your question, I don’t know. I would have to give it serious consideration, just as I would seriously consider whether I would be prepared to donate organs after I die. It is not something to which I can give you a snap answer.

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[Thangam Debbonaire]

Q Mr Taggart, you mentioned something about its feeling like it is 10 years out of date. I want to bring us bang up to date by chucking in a Brexit question. Is there anything that the three of you could very quickly add to the discussion about what might need to be in the Bill given that we are now in Brexit? Brexit has implications for the digital economy, about which I am sure you know more than me.

Chris Taggart: I will try to be brief. One is to do with policy aspects of what happens. I believe you are hearing from the Information Commissioner later. What happens to data protection in a post-EU UK? From our perspective, the UK has generally taken a slightly different perspective on data protection from the information commissioners in some other countries and is generally taking things like public interest into account and treating paid-for and free information the same, which we welcome. We have some concerns about the general data protection regulations because of that sort of stuff and some of the stuff that is coming from the EU. There are some potential benefits, but there are also some downsides about whether people’s rights will be defended. I think the digital economy becomes much, much more important, and my position here is as an advocate of open data and the potential for open data in driving a thriving digital economy. As a digital entrepreneur, I think we are missing some significant opportunities for that. If you were to sit down today and do a digital economy Bill with the knowledge that in a couple of years we perhaps would not be part of the EU, I think we would be doing something quite different.

Paul Nowak: May I pick up the point about post-Brexit? I think there is growing political consensus that one of the implications of the decision on 23 June is that we need to think seriously about how we invest in our national infrastructure. For the TUC that goes beyond Heathrow, Hinkley, High Speed Rail. It talks to issues around, for example, high-speed broadband. It is about thinking about how this Bill would interface with, for example, announcements that might come in the autumn statement about investment in high-speed broadband. I note that the Chair of the Committee talked about the interface between rail and high-speed broadband, which is something that should be borne in mind. Again, valid points were made on Second Reading about requirements for developers to incorporate high-speed broadband into new housing developments, which is absolutely essential. I reiterate the point I made earlier about seeing this in the context of the wider approach to industrial strategy and how the digital economy can support other parts of the economy that are going to be even more important as we move forward post-Brexit.

Sarah Gold: For me, particularly looking at privacy, security and personal data, it is about the age of some of the language used in the Bill. Even talking about data sharing feels to me like the wrong language. We should be talking about data access. Data sharing suggests duplication of databases, with data being slopped around different Departments, whereas data access suggests accessing minimum data via APIs or by using the canonical Government registers, which is an excellent project that is not mentioned in the Bill but should be.

[Nigel Huddleston]

Q There is a lot in this Bill, everything from BBC regulation to child protection, the universal service obligation and making switching easier. Can each of you say what are the top two or three positive features of the Bill that you believe will be of benefit to your members, clients or, indeed, the general public?

Chris Taggart: Yes. First of all, I agree that what I would like to see is that the Government—

[Nigel Huddleston]

I do not think that was the question. I asked what you like about the Bill that would be of benefit to your clients or customers. It is quite long.

Chris Taggart: To be perfectly honest, we operate in the new economy in places like Canary Wharf. We are a growing company and so on. I do not think there is anything in there that is going to benefit us as a growing, innovative digital company, to be honest.

[Nigel Huddleston]

Q The universal service obligation? Easier switching? None of that?

Chris Taggart: No.

[Nigel Huddleston]

Q You do not think that is a benefit?

Chris Taggart: Not to us. If you are talking about whether there are benefits to the wider world and to the UK as a whole, yes, I do not have an argument, but you asked whether it is of any direct benefit to us and I said no. There are plenty of things I could put into the Bill that would be of benefit and would be very simple to implement and so on, but in terms of measures in the Bill that would be a direct benefit to us and to the thousands of innovative digital companies in the UK that are making a difference to things like open data and financial services and solving real world problems and so on? Maybe it was not the intention for it to do that, and it does not.

[The Chair]

A clear answer.

Paul Nowak: If I could start on a positive and then give you a couple of areas where I think the Bill could be strengthened, the universal service obligation is something we would support. I note the discussion on Second Reading that 10 megabits per second is just a starting point. If you want a digital economy that is fit for the future you need to go well beyond that, but the universal service obligation is welcome. Some of the points in clause 4 are important, in terms of protections for musicians and other creative performers. Useful suggestions were made on Second Reading about how some of those provisions could be strengthened, such as ensuring online providers are accountable for any illegal pirated materials that they host and making sure the Government are prepared to step in if voluntary approaches to those sorts of issues fail. That would be a positive set of issues.

I have concerns about the interface between the Bill and the BBC. I know that the NUJ—which is one of our affiliates—is particularly concerned about the role of Ofcom as a potential regulator of the BBC. I am particularly concerned about the BBC taking on responsibility for TV licences for over-75s, not just in terms of the budgetary implications for the BBC but in terms of the BBC effectively taking responsibility for a key part of our social security system.

There are some positives, and the one I would draw out first and foremost is the universal service obligation. No matter what job someone does or where they live, having access to decent high-speed broadband is increasingly essential.

Sarah Gold: I agree with the overall sentiment of the Bill—that having better access to data and to the right infrastructure can lead to better services and a more open society. One of the details I think is good is the significant consequences for individuals should they be part of data misuse. That is really necessary and I see that as a positive step.

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[Thangam Debbonaire]

Q Is that the sort of data other countries are using in that way?

Hetan Shah: Yes, that is right. Other countries have different set-ups, as it were, but these are the sorts of puzzles they can solve because they can bring those data together in different ways.

[Nigel Huddleston]

Q Mr Shah, you have partly answered my question, so I will turn to Professor Sir Charles Bean first. What kind of Government data would you personally like to get access to; what would you do with it; and how would the public benefit from your having it?

Professor Sir Charles Bean: You do not mean me personally? Presumably you mean the Office for National Statistics and the UK Statistics Authority?

[Nigel Huddleston]

Absolutely.

Professor Sir Charles Bean: First and foremost, I would say the tax data that HMRC holds—value-added tax, income tax and corporation tax. Value-added tax is particularly useful because it tells you something about inputs and outputs of businesses. It is potentially quite good, up-to-date, timely information on activity in the economy. I should say, when I was on the Monetary Policy Committee, we used to get informal briefings each month from the Treasury representative on what they knew about the tax receipts coming in that month, but having more detailed information about what was going on would be potentially very useful. In principle you can envisage building the national income accounts almost entirely on that sort of information if you have access to it, and you can make sure that the income-outcome expenditure sides are all balanced. That, as far as I am concerned, is by far and away the most significant thing.

I think it would be quite useful to bring in another dimension here about why administrative data are useful. There is obviously a lot of interest in regional issues. As it is at the moment, most regional information is collected to align with administrative areas of one sort of another, but those are not always the most natural units to be looking at for studying a phenomenon. If you think of Wales, north Wales is not actually trading with south Wales, it is trading across with Manchester and Liverpool, while south Wales is trading across with Bristol and so forth. If you want to think about the regional economics, you need things that allow you to look at those nexuses, rather than the information you might be given on the Welsh economy. If you have administrative data, with regional, locational identifiers, you can in principle aggregate the information in whatever way is best suited to the particular issue that you want to look at.

In terms of thinking about statistics for the 21st century, we need to be thinking about a framework that is actually quite fluid and flexible, rather than one in which everything is pushed into a set of standard definitions for GDP and stuff like that, and standard regional definitions and so forth. When you have access to the underlying micro information, providing you have appropriate identifiers that you can manipulate and link, you have open to you all sorts of possibilities that we do not currently have.

[Nigel Huddleston]

Q Mr Shah, do you have anything to add to that?

Hetan Shah: I have just a couple of examples. One is systemic financial risk. Post 2008, I think there was a recognition that we had focused too much on the risk for individual financial institutions and not looked at risk at a systems level. There is a possibility of doing that. The Prime Minister has indicated an interest in how the labour market is changing with the rise of zero-hours contracts and so on. Using a mixture of administrative and private sector data would allow us to start to get a handle on how the economy is changing.

[The Chair]

We have two questioners left: Louise Haigh and then Claire Perry.