BBC Mid-term Charter Review

Debate between Nigel Evans and William Cash

Thursday 9th May 2024 Commons Chamber

[Sir William Cash]

May I commend the Minister not only on her speech just now, but on having continually engaged with me on the subject over the past few years? She has been dedicated to her task, and I do not come at this debate with rose-tinted spectacles; I have been critical of the BBC, and I will continue to be so on the terms I expressed. I am glad to note that she has said that the Government believe, as the mid- term review says, that there is room for improvement. That improvement is in part to do with attitudes and with statistical analysis and data, and I set all that out in my speech. It is also to do with the group-think that still gravitates in certain cohorts at the BBC and Ofcom, but I have made my point on that and it is on the record.

I accept entirely that this organisation, which has been going for so long, has an incredibly important role to play in our national life. It is precisely because it impinges day by day, hour by hour on our opinions, thoughts and attitudes that it is so important that impartiality is sustained in the correct manner and by reference to criteria; it should not be judge and jury. As Baroness Deech said in her letter in The Daily Telegraph on 23 January this year, the BBC requires a greater degree of independence, and she even referred to an independent ombudsman. I am not satisfied—the figures I have given perhaps illustrate it better, and there is a lack of sufficient proof—that the ECU system is working as well as some people hoped. I have deep misgivings about it, as I have expressed. The proof of the pudding is in the eating, and these improvements, I hope as a result of this debate, will be examined in that light.

I simply say this to my hon. Friends on the Government side, and to those on the Opposition side, some of whom were somewhat more critical about what I have had to say than others. I pay tribute to my right hon. Friend the Member for Ashford (Damian Green) and my hon. Friend the Member for Folkestone and Hythe (Damian Collins). I recognise that they really know what they are talking about and have enormous experience of these matters. This has been an important debate. I am sorry that the 30-odd colleagues who signed my application to the Backbench Business Committee have not been here today—their presence would have been lovely, but to some degree it reflects the difficult few weeks we have had—but, notwithstanding that, I am glad that we have had the debate.

I am extremely grateful to the Minister for her response and to the other Members who participated. The debate has been more than worthwhile and is another landmark in considering the improvements that we can achieve in relation to the BBC in the future.

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)]

I suspect that, like me, many of you have watched the Eurovision song contest for many decades with bated breath, expectation and hope. We wish Graham Norton well as he fronts the show this weekend, and we wish Olly Alexander incredibly well—we all hope that he will win. If any of you are free that night, Mr Fletcher, the Government Whip, tells me that he is having a Eurovision song contest party at his house, as will many people throughout the country. Good luck, everybody, on that contest.

Question put and agreed to.

Resolved,

That this House has considered the BBC mid-term charter review.

Illegal Migration Bill

Debate between Nigel Evans and William Cash

Committee stage
Monday 27th March 2023 Commons Chamber

[The Second Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means (Mr Nigel Evans)]

Order. I am anticipating four Divisions and I will try to assist the House as to when they are likely to happen. First, we go to Sir William Cash.

[Sir William Cash]

In the light of the firm and clear assurance given by my right hon. Friend the Minister in relation to my amendments, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Amendment proposed: 76, in clause 37, page 40, line 8, leave out from “means” to the end of line 12 and insert:

“(a) a protection claim, (b) a human rights claim, or (c) a claim to be a victim of slavery or a victim of human trafficking.”—(Alison Thewliss.)

Question put, That the amendment be made.

Northern Ireland

Debate between Nigel Evans and William Cash

Wednesday 22nd March 2023 Commons Chamber

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)]

The hon. Gentleman has spoken for eight minutes now, and this is really a very time-limited debate, because it has to finish at 2.21 pm.

[Sir William Cash]

I am just about to conclude by saying that this debate is about the rule of law and constitutional law, as well as the very fair points that my right hon. Friend the Member for Chelmsford (Vicky Ford) has just made. I do not doubt the importance of the stability of Northern Ireland, having taken great interest in these matters for many years, but I insist that the constitutional position is not reflected by the arrangements in the Windsor agreement. I simply make this final point: the proof of the pudding will be in the eating.

Online Safety Bill

Debate between Nigel Evans and William Cash

Report stage
Tuesday 17th January 2023 Commons Chamber

[Sir William Cash]

In a nutshell, we must be able to threaten tech bosses with jail. There is precedent for that—jail sentences for senior managers are commonplace for breaches of duties across a great range of UK legislation. That is absolutely and completely clear, and as a former shadow Attorney General, I know exactly what the law is on this subject. I can say this: we must protect our children and grandchildren from predatory platforms operating for financial gain on the internet. It is endemic throughout the world and in the UK, inducing suicide, self-harm and sexual abuse, and it is an assault on the minds of our young children and on those who are affected by it, including the families and such people as Ian Russell. He has shown great courage in coming out with the tragedy of his small child of 14 years old committing suicide as a result of such activities, as the coroner made clear. It is unthinkable that we will not deal with that. We are dealing with it now, and I thank the Secretary of State and the Minister for responding with constructive dialogue in the short space of time since we have got to grips with this issue.

The written ministerial statement is crystal clear. It says that

“where senior managers, or those purporting to act in that capacity, have consented or connived in ignoring enforceable requirements, risking serious harm to children. The criminal penalties, including imprisonment and fines, will be commensurate with similar offences.”

We can make a comparison, as the right hon. Member for Barking (Dame Margaret Hodge) made clear, with financial penalties in the financial services sector, which is also international. There is also the construction industry, as my hon. Friend the Member for Penistone and Stocksbridge (Miriam Cates) just said. Those penalties are already on our statute book.

I do not care what the European Union is doing in its legislation. I am glad to know that the Irish legislation, which has been passed and is an Act, has been through different permutations and examinations. The Irish have come up with something that includes similar severe penalties. It can be done. But this is our legislation in this House. We will do it the way that we want to do it to protect our children and families. I am just about fed up with listening to the mealy-mouthed remarks from those who say, “You can’t do it. It’s not quite appropriate.” To hell with that. We are talking about our children.

On past record, which I just mentioned, in 1977-78, a great friend of mine, Cyril Townsend, the Member for Bexleyheath, introduced the first Protection of Children Bill. He asked me to help him, and I did. We got it through. That was incredibly difficult at the time. You have no idea, Mr Deputy Speaker, how much resistance was put up by certain Members of this House, including Ministers. I spoke to Jim Callaghan—I have been in this House so long that I was here with him after he had been Prime Minister—and asked, “How did you give us so much time to get the Bill through?” He said, “It’s very simple. I was sitting in bed with my wife in the flat upstairs at No. 10. She wasn’t talking to me. I said, ‘What’s wrong, darling?’ She replied, ‘If you don’t get that Protection of Children Bill through, I won’t speak to you for six months.’” And it went through, so there you go. There is a message there for all Secretaries of State, and even Prime Ministers.

I raised this issue with the Prime Minister in December in a question at the Liaison Committee. I invited him to consider it, and I am so glad that we have come to this point after very constructive discussion and dialogue. It needed that. It is a matter not of chariots of fire but of chariots on fire, because we have done all this in three weeks. I am extremely grateful to the 51 MPs who stood firm. I know the realities of this House, having been involved in one or two discussions in the past. As a rule, it is only when you have the numbers that the results start to come. I pay tribute to the Minister for the constructive dialogue.

The Irish legislation will provide a model, but this will be our legislation. It will be modelled on some of the things that have already enacted there, but it is not simply a matter of their legislation being transformed into ours. It will be our legislation. In the European Parliament—

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)]

Order.

[Sir William Cash]

I know my time is up; I just want to say this.

Business without Debate

Debate between Nigel Evans and William Cash

Monday 15th November 2021 Commons Chamber

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)]

Sir William Cash, do you still wish to make a point of order?

[Sir William Cash (Stone) (Con)]

In the circumstances, Mr Deputy Speaker, the answer is no at this moment in time.

[Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire) (SNP)]

On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. We have just passed motion 6 on the Committee on Standards, which is probably one of the most significant motions that the House has considered in the past two weeks. It has been brought forward under Standing Order No. 9(6) and there has been no opportunity to debate it in the House at all. I look for your advice on how we can get the Leader of the House to come to the House and explain what he is doing.

Yemen

Debate between Nigel Evans and William Cash

Thursday 24th September 2020 Commons Chamber

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)]

I would like to thank Mr Loughton, who waived the opportunity to respond to this debate in order that more Members of Parliament could speak.

Question put and agreed to.

Resolved,

That this House has considered the situation in Yemen.

[Sir William Cash (Stone) (Con)]

On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. This is about the licence by this House to the BBC as to our proceedings, and what I believe to be a failure by the BBC under the House of Commons rules of coverage. It arose in respect of what I believe to be a less than full and accurate account on Radio 4 on Monday and Tuesday of exchanges on the controversial issue of UK breaches of international law, and those exchanges arose from an intervention I made on my right hon. Friend the Member for Maidenhead (Mrs May). The matter relates to the specific question of UK breaches of international law, and I do not believe it was accurately reported. The matter is now with the House authorities and under investigation. I have complained to the BBC, which says it is editing; I disagree. I wish to put this matter on the record as part of my continuing complaint.

[Mr Deputy Speaker]

I thank Sir William for his forward notice of his point of order. While it is not a matter for the Chair, he has clearly taken all the right actions and he has put it on the record.

I intend to suspend the sitting briefly, as I did last Thursday, because a lot of Members want to take part in the next debate. Please would those leaving the Chamber do so in a socially aware way? Once both Dispatch Boxes have been sanitised and as soon as the main players are in place, which most of them are already, we will start again.

Early Parliamentary General Election Bill

Debate between Nigel Evans and William Cash

3rd reading: House of Commons & Committee: 1st sitting: House of Commons
Tuesday 29th October 2019 Commons Chamber

[Sir William Cash]

My hon. Friend referred to the possibility of holding elections in schools. He might know what I am about to say. In his great constituency, there is a school called Stonyhurst College, which I happened to attend. Can he recall any occasion when Stonyhurst’s premises were used for elections?

[Mr Evans]

I do not believe so. It was used as the venue for the count for the by-election and the subsequent general election, which was fortunately only 12 months after, because I lost the by-election, but then won the general election in 1992.

We do not want to lose any school time. Nativity plays have been mentioned. We do not want to lose nativity plays, either. It has been said that losing some nativity plays at least brings to an end the farce that has gone on here. I fully appreciate that, but we do not want to inflict any sorrow on children who have been rehearsing for their nativity plays. If the election is on 12 December rather than 9 December, it will give schools the opportunity to plan ahead and to make sure that the rooms that are used will not conflict with any nativity plays.

Whether the election is on 9 or 12 December, people who are listening to this debate ought to take the opportunity now to ensure that they have postal votes or proxy votes. I have already bumped into a number of people who told me that they are going trekking in the Himalayas and are going to be away for five weeks. People are going on cruises and all that sort of stuff. I hope that people take precautions now. The most important thing at a general election is for people not to lose their vote and to be able to participate in helping to vote for the next Government of this country. Whether the election is on 9 or 12 December, I hope people vote Conservative and ensure that we deliver the Brexit that they voted for at the referendum.

European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018 (Exit Day) (Amendment) (No. 2) Regulations 2019

Debate between Nigel Evans and William Cash

Monday 20th May 2019 General Committees

[Sir William Cash]

I could not agree more. In fact, as I will mention later, as a result of the extension to 31 October, that amount of money comes to more than £7 billion. The original date was 29 March and it will cost about £1 billion a month. That is why my right hon. Friend is so right.

[Mr Nigel Evans (Ribble Valley) (Con)]

As my hon. Friend is on the topic of wasting huge sums of money, is not the moveable feast of dates the reason why the Government are wasting £150 million and inflicting elections on the British public on Thursday, in the hope that some sort of deal can be done so that the people we are electing on Thursday do not have to take their seats? Is this not “Alice in Wonderland” politics?

[Sir William Cash]

It is actually horror-in-wonderland politics. In our consideration—the House of Commons was given only one hour to consider Lords amendments—I tabled an amendment that would have prohibited our taking part in the European elections. To my astonishment, despite the fact that that was Government policy, I was informed that No. 10 had given instructions to oppose my amendment. It is unimaginable, but that is exactly what happened.

Dairy Industry

Debate between Nigel Evans and William Cash

Wednesday 4th February 2015 Westminster Hall

[Mr Evans]

Yes. It will not have gone unnoticed by my hon. Friend and others that Sainsbury’s took out a large advert in a number of newspapers indicating those supermarkets that are being fair and those that are not. I will refer to that later.

Edward Cowperthwaite’s farm is a bit further into the village. He milks a smaller herd than John Cowperthwaite. He came off his tractor to speak to me yesterday. He is not on a contract and has seen two successive cuts to his milk price, in January and February this year. He works seven days a week and cannot afford to employ anyone. He has some sheep to keep his income up, and his wife works as a teacher, so thankfully he can make a go of it, but he has five youngsters and is not sure that any of them will want to enter farming while it is in this particular predicament.

At the top of the village is William Slinger’s farm, which he can trace back to 1603. He has a larger herd of cows, plus sheep, and is the founding director of Bowland Fresh, which about 30 local farms feed into. Both Booths and Asda take his milk, and he works hard to ensure the scheme works for the participating farmers. I want to thank Booths in particular, as the founding buyer for Bowland Fresh, for the considerate way that it has treated local suppliers. Edwin Booth lives locally and knows that the value of milk is not simply the plastic bottle people take away from his stores. I also thank Asda for its support for Bowland Fresh.

Whether the cause is Russian sanctions, the reduced Chinese market or simply an over-supply in the market after a very good year last year, the fact is that the price for milk on some farms is now way below the cost of production. A local dairy farmer from Samlesbury, Graham Young, who is also a member of the National Farmers Union north-west dairy board, told me that many farmers joined the European milk co-operative, Arla, and are getting under 25p a litre; some farmers are in the First Milk co-operative and are getting around 20p a litre. Although the longer term is looking good, those prices are not sustainable in the short term, and farmers have to survive the short term first.

The current situation has energised a number of MPs who, like me, think something must be done. Those include my hon. Friend the Member for Thirsk and Malton (Miss McIntosh), who is here today. She is Chair of the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Committee, which produced an excellent report last month making a number of important recommendations. My hon. Friend the Member for Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire (Simon Hart), who is also here, had an Adjournment debate in November on this issue; sadly, the plight of the industry has worsened since then. A number of Members have put down or signed early-day motions and raised issues relating to dairying on the Floor of the House, including my hon. Friend the Member for Stone.

[Sir William Cash (Stone) (Con)]

Non-payment caused a huge crisis. Will my hon. Friend give some thought to the idea that the Government could help by engaging more, through public procurement of services? People who are in the Army, the education sector and other sectors could get milk supplied in a way that would help our farmers, and would ensure that the Government were taking an active part on this issue.

[Mr Evans]

That is an excellent idea, and I hope that the Minister will be able to respond to it, given the Government’s ability to direct procurement towards British dairy farmers.

Accountability and Transparency in the NHS

Debate between Nigel Evans and William Cash

Thursday 14th March 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mr Cash]

rose—

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)]

Order. Please resume your seat, Mr Cash.

European Union Bill

Debate between Nigel Evans and William Cash

Tuesday 8th March 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mr Cash]

I would very much welcome the idea of having, for example, European questions in the House. I have many proposals that would make the system more efficient. I remind my right hon. Friend of the current Home Secretary’s pamphlet, which recommended not only that European Committees should have their proceedings properly advertised, but that if, for example, 150 Members decided that they wanted to have the matter in question debated on the Floor of the House, there should be a free vote on a motion to overturn a decision taken in the Council of Ministers, whether or not the Government had approved the provision there. Some of us would be more interested in the results of a vote than in a mere discussion.

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)]

Order. Can we bring the debate back, please, to new clause 1?

Proposed Directive (Information Systems)

Debate between Nigel Evans and William Cash

Thursday 3rd February 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)]

Order. Owing to the pressure on time, please could we have short questions and short answers?

[Mr William Cash (Stone) (Con)]

The Minister may not be surprised to hear that, as Chair of the European Scrutiny Committee, I do not agree with his assertion that this has been done in accordance with due process. The former Leader of the House of Lords gave an undertaking that, in matters of opt-ins, an indication would be given to the Committee in advance of their intention. That indication has not been given. The draft is still under scrutiny and is currently deficient, as the Minister has conceded. What is the point of having a scrutiny process if it is compromised by decisions taken in advance of that consideration in full by the Committee, which would no doubt have recommended a debate?

Points of Order

Debate between Nigel Evans and William Cash

Thursday 3rd February 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mr William Cash (Stone) (Con)]

On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. I am gravely concerned about the manner in which the previous business has been dealt with. There appear to be a stream of such opt-ins in the pipeline, so I suggest that appropriate action be taken to ensure that at least the Chairman of the European Scrutiny Committee—myself—is given adequate notice and advance warning of any such statement, because the Committee has been effectively bounced, and that is not in the interests of the good order of this House, in the Standing Orders or in the spirit of the undertaking that the former Leader of the House of Lords gave.

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)]

That is not a point of order for the Chair. It seems to be an extension of the statement that we have just had, but Members on the Treasury Bench will have heard what the hon. Gentleman said.

European Union Bill

Debate between Nigel Evans and William Cash

Wednesday 26th January 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mr Cash]

I beg to move amendment 53, page 6, line 41, leave out ‘(3) to (5)’ and insert ‘(3) and (4)’.

[The First Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means (Mr Nigel Evans)]

With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:

Amendment 26, page 7, line 7, leave out subsections (5) to (7) and add—

‘(5) This subsection is complied with if—

(a) in each House of Parliament a Minister of the Crown moves a motion that the House approves Her Majesty’s Government’s intention to support a specified draft decision and is of the opinion that the decision relates only to one or more of the following purposes—

(i) to make provision equivalent to that made by a measure previously adopted under Article 352 of TFEU, where that previous measure was adopted following the commencement of section 8 of the European Union Act 2011 and the draft decision relating to that measure was approved by Act of Parliament;

(ii) to repeal existing measures adopted under Article 352 of TFEU;

(iii) to consolidate existing measures adopted under Article 352 of TFEU without any change of substance, where those existing measures were adopted following the commencement of section 8 of the European Union Act 2011 and the draft decisions relating to those measures were approved by Act of Parliament; and

(b) each House agrees to the motion without amendment.’.

Amendment 43, page 7, line 7, leave out subsections (5) to (7).

Clause stand part.

[Mr Cash]

The amendments have been tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Daventry (Chris Heaton-Harris) and myself, as well as several other Members, including my hon. Friends the Members for Aldridge-Brownhills (Mr Shepherd), for Harwich and North Essex (Mr Jenkin), for Wellingborough (Mr Bone) and for Northampton South (Mr Binley), and the right hon. Member for Belfast North (Mr Dodds) of the Democratic Unionist party.

We are dealing with a very broad provision in the treaty known as article 352, which is generally described as a flexibility clause but which has an ancient and controversial history. Even back in the 1970s, before I came to the House, when I was practising law, I was discussing a very controversial provision known as article 308, and I shall tell hon. Members why. When, in our legal processes and legislative procedures we pass laws, we do so on the basis of what is stated in an Act of Parliament and we consider the words. Some of the remarks I made in the previous debate on clause 7 about abstract principles are related to this issue. Ordinary statutes, particularly in the field of administrative law, frequently make certain provisions after a whole series of propositions in different sections. Right at the end, there is often an expression such as, “And all such measures as may be regarded as reasonably necessary to carry out these functions,” but they are very carefully constrained by the administrative court, and the tests are quite significant. If there is a catch-all provision that has the effect of enlarging the existing treaty arrangements, it is incredibly important to make sure that what is included can be justified and has proper authority.

In the context of legislation that comes to the House and thereafter affects the daily lives of the electorate, we already know, for reasons that I do not need to enlarge on, that the manner in which legislation is implemented could, in a nutshell, be one or two lines or a paragraph in a treaty that are equivalent to an entire Act of Parliament. With that comes a whole process of interpretation that is different from our own, because it is not necessarily precise and because it looks at purposes—it has a purposive quality. Then there are provisions relating to subsidiarity that generally are not adhered to.

When we are dealing with a specific treaty and considering its wording and range, we should ask, when it becomes part of UK legislation through section 2 of the European Communities Act, as enforced by the courts and their system of interpretation, how far and to what extent it was anticipated that the legislation being spelt out, even in a treaty, would result in certain consequences in terms of the precise policies that will emerge from the process. It is incumbent on us to implement the law, under section 2, but at the same time there is a great degree of collateral within which the actual provisions in a treaty are brought into effect, and there is also their effect on the people to consider. In many instances, people could not reasonably have been expected to know exactly how that provision would turn out in policy.

I happen to be a bit of a traditionalist and I think that when we pass legislation it should be consistent with policy making, but sometimes I think that my hon. Friends—I say this with great respect to them—are not necessarily quite as conscious when considering such issues about the direct impact of it all on the electorate, or about the degree of discretion that we are giving both to the European Union and to Ministers in implementing these sorts of provisions.

What is the effect of article 352? I shall explain my concerns about the Bill in relation to that wide-ranging provision, and I shall quote from article 352. It is important to set that out, as it is the framework for my general concern. Article 352 states:

“If action by the Union should prove necessary”—

that is a big question; who says?—

“within the framework of the policies defined in the Treaties”—

which have an enormously wide ambit, including what they involve, their purpose, nature and interpretation—

“to attain one of the objectives set out in the Treaties, and the Treaties have not provided the necessary powers, the Council, acting unanimously”—

that is important—

“on a proposal from the Commission and after obtaining the consent of the European Parliament, shall adopt the appropriate measures.”

The article continues:

“Where the measures in question are adopted by the Council in accordance with a special legislative procedure, it shall also act unanimously on a proposal from the Commission and after obtaining the consent of the European Parliament”—

not Ministers, though they have the right to determine whether or not they will apply the unanimity rule.

There is then a provision stating that where subsidiarity arises,

“the Commission shall draw national Parliaments’ attention to proposals based on this Article.”

The article goes on to say that such measures shall not entail the harmonisation of member states’ laws or regulations where the treaties say that there should not be such harmonisation. Finally, it states—this is important—that the article cannot serve as a basis for attaining objectives relating to foreign and security policy, and it imposes certain restrictions consistent with limits set out in article 40 of the Treaty on European Union.

That is what article 352 states. It is a very wide provision. It is certainly subject to unanimity by the Council. I therefore assume that my right hon. Friend the Minister will assure us that the veto would be used, were the existing treaties—wide and deep as they are and effective as they are on our constituents—to be amplified by the use of that extremely wide power. I should mention that a few years ago the European Scrutiny Committee went over to see the Commission and its legal advisers. We had a full report on the provision in question, which at that time was described as article 308.

My amendments would knock out the provisions that would enlarge the Government’s capacity to bypass—I use this language carefully—the principles on which I assume Parliament would want to insist. Because of the ambit of the measure, we should ensure that it is used as tightly as possible.

--- Later in debate ---

[The First Deputy Chairman]

Order. The hon. Lady’s comments are going much wider than the amendments currently before us. I believe that there is sufficient meat in the amendments.

[Mr Cash]

I am grateful for that, Mr Evans, because otherwise the hon. Lady might have tempted me yet again. She knows my soft point, and she knows very well that it would not take me long to get going on that issue, either. But, she is right.

I have tabled a number of amendments, but I do not intend to press them to a vote, because we have had a thoroughly good debate, and I, like my hon. Friend the Member for Hertsmere, think that further consultation between the Minister, his officials, the European Scrutiny Committee and our Clerks might help to ensure that we get the maximum out of the provisions, even if they do not really measure up.

In any case, we know what happens in our votes; we have watched them now for about a week. On one occasion, we reached 45 genuine—as I call them— abstentions. By the way, Mr Evans, your name appeared on one list, but I said, “No, he’s Chairman of Ways and Means; this is not somebody you can count in.” Anyway, on parliamentary sovereignty we had between 45 and 50 such abstentions, which is quite a lot, but it is not anything like as many as the number of Members who rather agree with us in the broadest sense. I shall not go down that route, but what happens in votes is not very edifying. We do not win votes, because people are being told to vote in a way that is inconsistent with what they think, and that is another democratic problem.

Amendments 99 and 98 are mischievous, simply because they were tabled only to demonstrate my concern, which I have just raised, that opt-ins should not be allowed under any circumstances. On amendment 47, however, regarding the harmonisation of criminal offences and sanctions, my hon. Friends the Members for Esher and Walton, for Hertsmere and for Daventry are right. I am reluctant to adopt a default position, but for the purposes of debate I want to get out into the open something that concerns me, because the harmonisation of criminal offences and sanctions, on which I dare say books could be written, ought to be as restricted as possible.

Article 83(2) of TFEU, as I state in amendment 47,

“permits the establishment by directive of minimum rules with regard to the definition of criminal offences and sanctions in an area subject to harmonisation measures by the same ordinary or special legislative procedure as was followed for the adoption of the harmonisation measures in question.”

In a nutshell, I should like that to be one of those measures—from the written statement to which the Minister has referred—that ought to be discussed properly.

Let us think about what the harmonisation of criminal offences and sanctions affects and what its consequences are for the people whom we are elected to represent. If I cannot win the vote on my desire to throw out the whole measure, my minimum default position, however cynical and unhappy I am about opt-ins anyway, is to attempt to include it in the arrangements that the Government have provided.

Those are my thoughts on this group of amendments and on my amendments. If I sound a little concerned about them, I hope that Members will understand. As my hon. Friend the Member for Esher and Walton said, I see the provision under discussion as an enormous step. I am not sure that it is beneficial, because it assumes that there will be opt-ins. There are 30 or 40 of them, and there have already been eight in the past few months. The trend exists, and I do not see anything holding back the tsunami. Indeed, I see the tsunami being built up, and that is not in the interests of the democratic principles by which this House is elected.

Fixed-term Parliaments Bill

Debate between Nigel Evans and William Cash

Tuesday 18th January 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mr Cash]

rose—

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)]

Order. If you wish to press your new clause, Mr Cash, you will have an opportunity to do so later, after we debate the next group, which starts with new clause 4.

New Clause 4

Prorogation of Parliament

‘(1) Parliament can only be prorogued in accordance with this section.

(2) If the House of Commons resolves that Parliament should be prorogued, Parliament shall be prorogued at that time, or by declaration of the Speaker.

(3) The Speaker of the House of Commons shall not make such a declaration unless the House of Commons has passed a resolution directing him to do so on or before a specified date and time.

(4) Where Parliament is prorogued under subsection (2) above, the Speaker may by declaration prorogue it to an earlier or later day.

(5) The Prorogation Act 1867 is repealed.’.—(Chris Bryant.)

Brought up, and read the First time.

Fixed-term Parliaments Bill

Debate between Nigel Evans and William Cash

Wednesday 24th November 2010 Commons Chamber

[The First Deputy Chairman]

Order. That is not part of the amendments before us, so Mr Cash, could you restrict yourself to the amendments, please?

[Mr Cash]

What I am saying, Mr Evans, is that the clause is being introduced without a mandate, using Parliament and patronage to undermine Parliament itself, not only now but in future. The voters, who have reposed their trust in us as MPs, are being severely damaged by what is being done today. As for the future, to quote T. S. Eliot’s “Burnt Norton”:

“Time present and time past

Are both perhaps present in time future

And time future contained in time past.

If all time is eternally present

All time is unredeemable.”

So is this act of constitutional vandalism.

My amendment 4 is based on a simple point of principle, namely that a motion can be passed by a simple majority of one, as has been the case from time immemorial—from the very inception of our parliamentary process in what is sometimes described as the “mother of Parliaments”. That is now being changed in a manner that will seriously alter the method whereby a Government may fall.

The merits of the various amendments, such as amendment 33 and my amendment 4, may differ. However, mine, which has been supported—without my encouragement, I have to say—by the Leader of the Opposition and therefore by the Opposition themselves, has the merit of simplicity and maintaining the status quo. Why have I tabled this amendment? It is because I object to the new-fangled idea that an early election would result from a motion, perhaps proposed by the Opposition, any MP or even the Government themselves, that requires—this is contrary to all constitutional precedent and history since our Parliament first sat representing the electors of this country—the support of two thirds or more of those eligible to vote as Members of Parliament. In other words, we are talking about seats and not the persons present in the House of Commons. That is a profound and dangerous doctrine.

Points of Order

Debate between Nigel Evans and William Cash

Thursday 11th November 2010 Commons Chamber

[Mr William Cash (Stone) (Con)]

On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. I raised earlier with the Leader of the House my Committee’s concerns at the extremely short time between the presentation of the European Union Bill and its Second Reading. The Bill deals with matters of enormous constitutional importance and it would be appropriate, within the terms of reference of my Committee, to guarantee that we are given adequate time to consider it. I would be grateful, Mr Deputy Speaker, if you would be kind enough to take that point on board for the purposes of ensuring that, within the Standing Orders, my Committee has appropriate time to deal with the Bill.

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)]

I have listened to what you have had to say, Mr Cash, and you have made the point that you wished to make.

We now move on to the main business of the day, but before I call Margaret Hodge to move the motion on her Committee’s report, I should remind the House that the Backbench Business Committee has recommended that this item take no longer than 15 minutes. We will then move on to the main debate on policy for growth.

Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill

Debate between Nigel Evans and William Cash

Tuesday 2nd November 2010 Commons Chamber

[Mr William Cash (Stone) (Con)]

I beg to move amendment 7, page 6, line 10, at end insert ‘, and

(c) the number of electors casting a vote in the referendum is equal to or greater than 40 per cent. of those entitled to cast such a vote.’.

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)]

With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:

Amendment 197, page 6, line 10, at end insert

‘, and

(c) the number of electors casting a vote in favour of the answer “Yes” is equal to or greater than 25 per cent. of those entitled to cast such a vote.’.

Amendment 8, page 6, line 12, after ‘“No”,’, insert

‘or if the number of electors casting a vote in the referendum is less than 40 per cent. of those entitled to cast such a vote,’.

Amendment 198, page 6, line 12, after ‘“No”’, insert

‘or if the number of electors casting a vote in favour of the answer “Yes” is fewer than 25 per cent. of those entitled to cast such a vote’.

[Mr Cash]

The question of threshold is the second most important issue after the question of whether we agree to this Bill on Second or Third Reading. We have Third Reading to come, and I admit to having voted with some enthusiasm against the Bill on Second Reading, as did a number of my colleagues. We did so because of our inherent objection to the principles that underlie it. I objected to the alternative vote in the wash-up, and I have no reservations about my objections to it. Indeed, I have consistently objected to variants of the proportional representation system ever since I entered the House.

That principled objection has been adopted by Members throughout 150 years of our parliamentary democracy. Many, including Gladstone, Disraeli and even Lloyd George, have objected to the whole idea of undermining the first-past-the-post system. I am reminded of what Disraeli wrote in his novel “Coningsby”. At the time of the Reform Act and the repeal of the corn laws, he wrote in a brief chapter of just one-and-a-half pages:

“There was a great deal of shouting about Conservative principles, but the awkward question naturally arose—what are the principles we are supposed to conserve?”

I believe this Bill is inherently contrary to Conservative principles for the reasons I have given.

Indeed, I would go further and say that I fear that we have not really heard the full reality— the actualité—of what is going on here. Failure in that regard makes it all the more necessary to have a threshold, because if we do not tell the British people the entire truth, which Churchill said we had to do, I fear they will be misled in the referendum campaign. My belief that a threshold is necessary is based in part on the fact that at least that would enable a percentage of the population to be the determining factor as to whether or not the vote is valid.

Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill

Debate between Nigel Evans and William Cash

Monday 18th October 2010 Commons Chamber

[Mr Cash]

On a point of order, Mr Evans. I do not know how the order of the amendments was decided, and I am sure that it was done in a proper and orderly manner, but I wish to place on record the fact that the threshold provisions are being driven further and further down the selection list, yet they are seminal to the referendum and whether it can be justified in the national interest.

[The First Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means (Mr Nigel Evans)]

A statement was made by the Minister earlier about thresholds and I am sure that it will all become clear to the hon. Gentleman as he stays for the rest of this evening’s proceedings.