Zero-emission Vehicles, Drivers and HS2

Debate between Nigel Evans and Mark Harper

Monday 16th October 2023 Commons Chamber

[Mr Harper]

Oh dear. I do not know whether the hon. Lady noticed, but this is the first day that the House has been back after the conference break, and I am here at the Dispatch Box making a statement at the first—[Interruption.] If the hon. Member for Manchester Central (Lucy Powell) will allow me to answer the questions that her hon. Friend has just asked without shouting from the Opposition Front Bench, I shall be delighted to do so. This is our first day back, and I have made a statement at the first opportunity I have had.

The hon. Lady made a point about the cost of living. I drew attention to the fact that the £2 bus fare cap was being extended; that will kick in as early as next month, and it is an important cost of living measure for the many millions of people who use buses. Buses are the most popular form of public transport, which is why the Under-Secretary of State for Transport, my hon. Friend the Member for North West Durham (Mr Holden), is such a massive champion of them.

The hon. Lady referred to HS2. We are still delivering phase 1 from Euston to the west midlands, which is very significant transport investment and delivery, in terms of the supply chain and all the companies that depend on it. Moreover, it delivers a massive increase in capacity to the west coast main line, taking the number of seats a day from 134,000 to 250,000. As for the details in the “Network North” document, let me point out that a third of the savings we are making that are being reinvested—£12 billion—are increases in funding for various Mayors across the country. The ultimate decisions about what is to be invested are for those Mayors, and I have had productive conversations with a number of them. They will be working with us on the details of these plans, so that they are right for the areas that they represent. As for the hon. Lady’s point about decision making, I have said this publicly before: I took the formal decision on the day before the Prime Minister’s speech. There was a meeting of the Cabinet on the morning of his speech, which approved that decision, and the Prime Minister announced it shortly afterwards.

I noticed that the right hon. and learned Member for Holborn and St Pancras (Keir Starmer) rowed in very quickly, and has not disavowed this decision. He, of course, has long campaigned against HS2, and I suspect that the fact he rowed in so quickly behind it reflects that. I note that, on this decision, where the Prime Minister leads, the Leader of the Opposition follows.

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)]

I call the Chair of the Transport Committee.

Rail Services

Debate between Nigel Evans and Mark Harper

Thursday 11th May 2023 Commons Chamber

[The Secretary of State for Transport (Mr Mark Harper)]

Mr Deputy Speaker, that is a very helpful point for you to have made on behalf of Mr Speaker. As you know, I completely agree with that. [Interruption.] I can hear some chuntering from those on the Opposition Benches, but they should understand this. Once we notified FirstGroup of my decision, there was obviously market-sensitive information that it was obligated by law to disclose to the stock exchange as soon as the markets opened this morning and that meant the decision was in the public domain. We issued a press notice, but other than that no other information has been put into the public domain and I have therefore kept all of our remarks until the House was able to be updated. But in market-sensitive cases, I know that Mr Speaker will understand that certain things have to be disclosed to the outside world and cannot wait until they are notified to the House.

I start by thanking the entire transport industry and officials across Government for their professionalism and hard work over the last weekend. Tens of thousands of people travelled to Windsor and central London for the coronation of His Majesty King Charles III and Her Majesty Queen Camilla. Getting the public around efficiently and safely took months of planning and preparation, and special thanks must go to Great Western Railway for putting on additional services as well as Network Rail and South Western Railway, which facilitated the biggest movement of military personnel by the rail industry in more than 50 years for the coronation. It meant that people from across the UK and, indeed, around the world were able to unite in celebration during what was a truly historic moment.

In my most recent oral statement to the House, I made clear the Government’s commitment to deliver a railway that works for passengers, businesses and the taxpayer. Where services are not up to scratch, we are holding operators to account, and where there are systemic weaknesses in the industry, we are pushing ahead with reform. So I wish to update the House today on our progress, starting with the future operator of the TransPennine Express contract.

Since I took office, I have been clear that First TransPennine Express’s service levels have for too long been unacceptable. Passengers, including many hon. and right hon. Members across this House, have faced significant disruption, including regular cancellations and poor levels of communication. The underlying reasons behind this vary, but what is clear is that the twin challenges of covid and industrial action have left their mark. First TPE’s driver training backlog now stretches to nearly 4,000 days, which means that, at any one time, it can only draw upon 80% of its total driver workforce. Add to that a breakdown in relations between the operator and the driver union ASLEF, all told, there simply have not been enough drivers to run the planned timetable. Inevitably, passengers have borne the brunt, facing cancellation rates of up to 23% on Monday to Friday services and gaps in services on some routes of up to six hours. That clearly is not good enough, a point I have made directly with FirstGroup, which owns First TPE, and which the Rail Minister—the Minister of State, Department for Transport, my hon. Friend the Member for Bexhill and Battle (Huw Merriman)—has made in weekly meetings with the Rail North Partnership, where Transport for the North jointly manages First TPE’s contract with the Department for Transport.

We will always hold operators to account for matters within their control. We will give them a chance to put things right, but despite a recovery plan put in place since February, there remain significant challenges underpinned by ASLEF’s distinct lack of co-operation. To achieve the performance levels I expect, passengers deserve and the northern economy needs, it is clear that both the contract and the underlying relationships must be reset. I have therefore decided not to renew or extend First TPE’s contract when it ends on 28 May. Instead, I am exercising my operator of last resort duties and directly awarding a new TPE contract to a public sector operator that will manage it on my behalf.

As Transport Secretary, my obligation, first and foremost, is to secure passenger rail services on which TPE passengers can rely. That requires a new approach, and one that the OLR is best placed to deliver in these circumstances. Most significantly, it provides an opportunity to reset relations between management and all stakeholders—from passengers to trade unions. I have also asked my officials to review services in the north to help drive efficiency and find better ways to deliver for passengers across the region, and I will ask all interested parties, including the northern Mayors and Transport for the North, to engage with the Government on this work.

While today’s decision will be welcomed by many and while it shows a Government alive to the concerns of passengers, as my hon. Friend the Rail Minister and I have made clear, it would be misguided for anyone to think this is an instant solution. The problems First TPE faced will not disappear overnight. Any operator facing industrial action and a union co-ordinated ban on overtime working will struggle to run a reliable service. So I invite those who have long called for today’s decision, including unions, northern Mayors and colleagues across the House, to work constructively with me and the Rail Minister to fix the underlying problems and help return the service levels to where they should be. The OLR is just the next stop on the line—it is not the terminus station—and once market conditions allow, we intend to subject this and indeed all contracts, both private sector and those under the OLR, to competitive tendering.

There will be some, unfortunately, who use today’s decision to further their ideological ends, and to argue that this justifies all rail contracts being brought under public control. That would be a mistake. The majority of taxpayers do not use the railways regularly, but they could be saddled with the huge costs of nationalisation, only to inherit the industry’s problems with no plan to fix them. Nationalisation is a soundbite, not a solution, and this Government will always be guided by the evidence to help make the best decisions for passengers. That is why, earlier this year, having seen the noticeable improvements on Avanti West Coast, I resisted calls to bring the franchise into public ownership. I extended Avanti’s contract by six months—a decision vindicated, with Avanti-caused cancellation rates at the end of March falling to 1.4% from 13.2% in January, and continuing to improve, despite ongoing challenges.

Let me now turn to industrial action. For months, the Rail Minister and I have worked hard to change the tone of the dispute, and help facilitate fair and reasonable pay offers for workers. In negotiations with train operating companies, the RMT and ASLEF are refusing to even put those pay offers to a vote of their members, despite RMT members who work for Network Rail voting overwhelmingly to accept a similar deal earlier this year. Instead, the RMT has balloted for yet more industrial action and, along with ASLEF, it has cynically called strikes that will cripple the network during the Eurovision song contest this week. We are hosting Eurovision because last year’s winner, Ukraine, cannot. It will be an event attended by displaced Ukrainians who have fled Putin’s war, and the House has just been hearing about that threat, so it beggars belief that unions have chosen to disrupt such an internationally symbolic event—one that not only presents a united front against Russia’s aggression, but shows solidarity with Ukraine’s resistance. So my message on behalf of fed-up passengers is to say to the union leaders, “Call off your strikes, put the fair and reasonable pay offers to a vote and give your members a say on their future.”

With or without the unions’ support, the industry must modernise to avoid permanent decline, and we are building unstoppable momentum towards rail reform, as I set out in my Bradshaw address in February. I have announced that Derby will be the location for Great British Railways’ new headquarters, and today I can report progress against the commitment I made to extend single leg pricing to the rest of the London North Eastern Railway network. Tickets will go on sale from 14 May for travel from 11 June, and it means LNER passengers will benefit from simpler, more flexible and better-value ticketing, removing the frustration that a single ticket can cost almost as much as a return.

In conclusion, since becoming Transport Secretary, my approach has been to listen to the experts, weigh up the evidence and make decisions in the interests of the travelling public. Today’s announcements show a Government tuned in to the concerns of passengers in the north, unafraid to take tough decisions to deliver better services and relentlessly focused on modernising our railways while protecting passengers from the effects of industrial action. That is what the British people deserve, it is what we are delivering and I commend this statement to the House.

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)]

I call the shadow Secretary of State.

Points of Order

Debate between Nigel Evans and Mark Harper

Tuesday 9th November 2021 Commons Chamber

[Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab)]

On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker, you may not be aware, but as I understand it, the Government told the lobby this morning—but obviously not the House, as yet—that they intend, further to yesterday’s debate and last week’s proceedings, to table a motion, rescinding the decision to set up the special committee and approving the third report of the Select Committee on Standards on the conduct of Mr Owen Paterson, for debate some time next week. Have you had any notice that that is the Government’s intention, or of what day they intend to do that? Obviously we will not have a business statement this week. Is there any suggestion as to whether there will be a business of the House motion to enable that to happen, or how they are intending to do it?

If I may, I make a brief announcement from the Standards Committee, which might be helpful to the House. As part of our review of the code of conduct and its operation, we have decided today to commission a senior judicial figure to advise us on possible changes to the process. We have already taken advice today from Sir Stephen Irwin, who is chair of the Independent Expert Panel. We believe that our present practices guarantee a fair hearing, but we will always consider suggestions for improvements. I hope that is helpful for the House.

[Mr Mark Harper (Forest of Dean) (Con)]

Further to that point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker, I think it helpful, given that this issue is best done on a cross-party basis, to say, first, that I support and welcome what the Chair of the Standards Committee has just said about his Committee’s procedures. On the first matter he raised, Ministers in the debate yesterday gave an indication that they were not minded to deal with the issues that arose last week. So I deprecate the fact that again these things have been announced outside the House; they should be announced in the House.

We do not have a business statement this week. Notwithstanding that, if the Government intend to bring forward a motion next week to deal with the two matters—to enable the House to take a decision on the Standards Committee report, which is important, and to unpick the committee that should not exist and which the Chair no longer wishes to chair—that is welcome, but it should have been announced in the House in the usual way. I hope that Ministers are able to furnish Members, perhaps by way of written information, before we come back next week with the detail of how they wish to proceed. I think that would be welcomed by both sides of the House.

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)]

I am grateful to Mr Bryant for his point of order and to Mr Harper for the follow-up point of order. I thank Mr Bryant for his notification. I am not privy to the lobby briefings that take place, but there has been a lot of speculation. If the Government are taking this course of action next week, then you, as Chair of the Committee, need to be given information as quickly as possible. It would be nice if that were the case. There does seem to be a bit of a theme, which is not appropriate, because Parliament needs the opportunity to hear that news first. If the process is going to take the course that it does, it is a shame that it could not have been done a lot earlier. I am also grateful for the comments he has made on the action that his Committee will take, because that is the right process. It should not hang on any individual case, as was clearly happening in this particular instance.

Bill Presented

Commercial Rent (Coronavirus) Bill

Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57)

Paul Scully, supported by the Prime Minister, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, Secretary Michael Gove, Secretary Dominic Raab, Secretary Kwasi Kwarteng, Secretary Nadine Dorries, Secretary Sajid Javid and Secretary George Eustice, presented a Bill to make provision enabling relief from payment of certain rent debts under business tenancies adversely affected by coronavirus to be available through arbitration; and for connected purposes.

Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time tomorrow, and to be printed (Bill 189) with explanatory notes (Bill 189-EN).

Covid-19 Update

Debate between Nigel Evans and Mark Harper

Monday 19th July 2021 Commons Chamber

[Mr Mark Harper (Forest of Dean) (Con)]

On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. I listened very carefully to what the Minister said in response to the excellent question from my right hon. Friend the Member for Tunbridge Wells (Greg Clark), who chairs the Science and Technology Committee. The Minister said that when the information is available from the test and release pilot in the next couple of weeks, he will come back to the House straightaway.

You will have noticed, Mr Deputy Speaker, as I am sure all Members will, that the House will be in recess at that point, and Ministers are unable therefore to answer written questions, lay written ministerial statements or make oral statements. I therefore ask those on the Treasury Bench, through you, Mr Deputy Speaker, whether the Minister will ensure that the House is recalled to hear that evidence. Of course, the decision point is on 16 August —during the recess. This will be of interest to millions of people in our country who by that point may be self-isolating, so we need a commitment that the Minister will return and the House will be brought back to enable Ministers to be questioned on this important matter. It would be helpful if the Minister can confirm that at the Dispatch Box now.

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)]

The Minister is smiling at me. I do not think he wishes to speak. The right hon. Gentleman is absolutely right that the House goes into recess on Thursday and does not come back until 6 September. It is way out of the ability of the Chair to recall Parliament, but I am absolutely certain that those on the Treasury Bench heard what he had to say and will pass it on to the appropriate people.

I thank the Minister for his statement and for answering 29 questions in well over an hour. We will now suspend for three minutes in order to sanitise the Dispatch Boxes.

National Health Service

Debate between Nigel Evans and Mark Harper

Tuesday 13th July 2021 Commons Chamber

[Mr Harper]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for bringing that information to the attention of the House.

I will bring my remarks to a conclusion, because Mr Deputy Speaker wants to make sure that we get everybody in. My final point is that, coming back to the consultation that took place, it is very clear that most of the people responding did not support these proposals. They were very concerned about them; certainly, the care homes and those involved in the sector who I have heard from are very concerned about them. The proposals do not command wide support, so I say to the Minister that I would listen to the concerns that are being expressed, take these proposals away, and come back with some well-thought-through proposals to secure the support of the House. If she presses them to a vote today, I regret to say that I will be forced to vote against them.

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)]

I can guarantee that everybody will get in: there is a five-minute limit.

Points of Order

Debate between Nigel Evans and Mark Harper

Monday 2nd November 2020 Commons Chamber

[Mr David Davis (Haltemprice and Howden) (Con)]

Further to that point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. Thank you very much for that explanation. I am entirely with my right hon. Friend the Member for North Somerset (Dr Fox) in his request to the House. These are unique circumstances and this is a time when the House is finding it difficult to do its job properly. I would like to give notice that we wish to press the matter further.

[Mr Mark Harper (Forest of Dean) (Con)]

Further to that point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. May I give the House a specific reason why I think the suggestion of my right hon. Friend the Member for North Somerset (Dr Fox) is valid? I questioned the Leader of the House about publishing information. In answer to a question from the right hon. Member for North Durham (Mr Jones), the Prime Minister said that all scientific information pertinent to the decisions that the House is being asked to make would be published. Later, in answer to my hon. Friend the Member for Isle of Wight (Bob Seely), the Prime Minister said something slightly different: that he would seek to publish all the information that he had seen in making his decision. Those two things are not quite the same. The sort of Committee that my right hon. Friend the Member for North Somerset described would enable the House, rather than the Government, to be in control of the process. I commend the suggestion for that reason.

[Mr Deputy Speaker]

I thank David Davis and Mark Harper for their points of order further to that of Dr Liam Fox. I have nothing more to add to the guidance that I initially gave, but I am grateful to the Leader of the House for staying to listen to the three points of order. As I said, I hope the right hon. Members will now seek further guidance from the Clerk of the House, Dr John Benger.

We will now suspend the sitting for a few minutes for sanitation of both Dispatch Boxes and the safe exit and arrival of Members of Parliament.

6.28 pm

Sitting suspended.

Virtual participation in proceedings concluded (Order, 4 June).

Finance Bill

Debate between Nigel Evans and Mark Harper

2nd reading & 2nd reading: House of Commons & Programme motion & Programme motion: House of Commons & Ways and Means resolution
Monday 27th April 2020 Commons Chamber

[Mr Mark Harper (Forest of Dean) (Con) [V]]

The Financial Secretary, who opened the debate and is my constituency neighbour, made the point that the Budget seems like a very long time ago. It does to me too, having spoken in the Budget debate. The concerns we expressed then do not seem quite so present today, with the Government having to deal with the huge threat from coronavirus. I want to make several national points and then I want to raise with the Minister a couple of issues that are specifically relevant to my constituency.

My first point is that we have heard a lot of talk about how we exit lockdown, but I think it is much more relevant to talk about a recovery plan. We are going to be living with coronavirus until we either find a vaccine or until we have a successful treatment. It is possible—I hope it is not the case, but it is possible—that we never find a vaccine, so we need to think about how we enable the economy to operate with this virus. It is going to be with us for some time. I have one question for the Minister, relating to the fifth test, on how the Government wish to start easing restrictions. When it was first set out by the First Secretary, the Government said that they wanted to avoid a second peak in cases, which would overwhelm the NHS. We all, rightly, want to avoid that. However, in the slides published today, that caveat at the end about overwhelming the NHS had disappeared. It seems to me that that is a very important omission, because, as we relax restrictions, we will inevitably see more cases. The question for us is not whether we will see more cases, but whether we will see them at a level that is able to be dealt with by our fantastic NHS. I therefore hope the Minister can answer the question about exactly what that fifth test is.

The second point I wanted to raise is about openness and how we develop that plan. I am pleased that the Prime Minister, in his very welcome statement today on his return to Downing Street, confirmed that the Government would work as openly as possible as they set out their case. He said, for example, that they would look at bringing with them industry, constituents and Opposition parties as they develop their plan. I want the Minister, as we bring industry in, to think about the businesses that will have to change their business models to reflect the fact that social distance will be with us for some time, and to think about how we might help those businesses deal with the effects of coronavirus going forward.

My third and final national point, which was raised by a number of colleagues, is how we get economic growth to go sufficiently fast to deal with the debts we are going to have. We need to go back to the measures in the Finance Bill that were in the Budget relating to driving up research and development spend, and to driving up spending on education and skills. They will be critical.

The local points I wanted to raise have been raised several times in the debate already. They relate to the use of the rates system to qualify for grants. have a number of serviced offices and business parks, such as Vantage Point at Mitcheldean and the Newent business park, where individual tenants have rates rolled up into their rent. Because they are not ratepayers, they are not eligible for any of the grants that the Government are using to assist businesses in trouble. I urge the Minister to see whether there is a way that those small businesses can be helped with the valuable grants that have been raised.

My final point is again about the use of the rates system, with the £51,000 rate cut-off, which has already been mentioned in this debate. It means that some businesses in my constituency, particularly those in the leisure and tourism sector, find they are not eligible for any of the help that the Government have delivered, because there is a hard edge at that £51,000 cut-off. As others have said, if that could be tapered, it would be incredibly valuable and welcome. With those national and local points, I pay tribute to all those who have made this virtual sitting possible. It is fantastic to have been able to participate in this debate in the House from my Forest of Dean constituency.

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)]

Order. To finish at 10 past nine, I call Ian Byrne.

Nomination of Members to Committees

Debate between Nigel Evans and Mark Harper

Tuesday 12th September 2017 Commons Chamber

[Mr Mark Harper (Forest of Dean) (Con)]

Rather than repeating arguments, let me go through the arguments that have been raised so far and comment on them as I think fit, which I hope will be of assistance to the House.

The Leader of the House made an admirably short speech—I do not know what the shadow Leader of the House was moaning about. Normally everyone moans in this House that people go on for too long, but the Leader of the House crisply enunciated the purpose of the motion and set it out very clearly. That was an admirable thing for her to do.

I listened to the shadow Leader of the House very carefully. She moaned about references to the Selection Committee rather than the Committee of Selection. I am afraid that reminded me—we have already mentioned Monty Python once in the debate today—of the argument about the People’s Front of Judea and the Judean People’s Front. I do not think that what the Committee is called is significant. [Interruption.] It is just not important—arguing about what the Committee is called is not important. In addition, the Chair of the existing Committee of Selection is already paid, so the current proposal is not a change, and there is no sinister aspersion the shadow Leader of the House can cast on that. So I did not think that those arguments really had any great weight.

The substance of the hon. Lady’s argument was driven through precisely by my right hon. Friend the Member for West Dorset (Sir Oliver Letwin), who put his finger on the issue: if we pass this motion this evening, it will demonstrate again—as have all the votes we have had since this Government were formed—that we actually command a majority in this House. The hon. Lady’s only possible motivation for not wanting to agree to the motion is that she wants to gum up the works.

The hon. Lady invited us to look at the Opposition Members being put forward for the Committee and to assess their reasonableness, and I do not necessarily quarrel with that—they are very reasonable people. I would argue that the Government Members who have been put forward to serve on the Committee, including the Chair, are very reasonable people. However, if we want to look at the Opposition’s approach to reasonableness and the progress of business, we do not have to go back very far; we only have to go back as far as yesterday, when the Opposition were faced with the decision of the British people to leave the European Union. They knew it was necessary to have the European Union (Withdrawal) Bill and to pass that legislation, but they chose to oppose it. If they had got their way, they would have frustrated the will of the British people. Rather than abstain and try to improve the Bill in Committee, as a number of my right hon. and hon. Friends chose to do in saying that they support the principle of the Bill but it needs improvement and they have tabled amendments—the Lord Chancellor has indicated that he is going to discuss those amendments in a constructive and appropriate way—they chose to vote against the Bill to try to vote it down. A number of Opposition Members spotted the inconsistency between that approach and the referendum result and called them out on it. That betrays the hon. Lady’s real motive.

[Mr Nigel Evans]

Does my right hon. Friend find it somewhat bizarre that representatives of the Scottish National party and the Liberal Democrats are saying that Conservative Members are trying to circumvent democracy, and yet although on 23 June 2016 the British people decided to vote, by a margin of more than 1.3 million, to leave the European Union, on every piece of legislation we have brought before this House, those Members have voted against the democratic wishes of the British people?

[Mr Harper]

My hon. Friend makes a strong point very well, but I think my right hon. Friend the Member for West Dorset put his finger on it.

I listened very carefully to the arguments made by the hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire (Pete Wishart). I should just counsel him that he wants to be a bit careful quoting Margaret Thatcher. While she is held in high regard by Conservative Members, I note that the leader of his party, the First Minister of Scotland, says that her entire political mission to get independence for Scotland was driven by Margaret Thatcher, so if he starts quoting her in this House with approbation, he may be putting his own future in his own party at great risk—and Conservative Members would not want to see that.

The hon. Gentleman’s arguments did not hold much water. Again echoing my right hon. Friend the Member for West Dorset, if we win the vote on this motion, we will have demonstrated that we command a majority. As I said in an intervention, he is entirely right to point out that the Conservative party on its own does not have a majority in this House, but the Government do. The Opposition cannot command a majority either.

Immigration Rules: Sponsors

Debate between Nigel Evans and Mark Harper

Thursday 14th March 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mr Deputy Speaker]

I am on the verge of sending somebody to see where the Serjeant at Arms has gone. Has this got anything to do with Comic Relief by any chance? It is that time of year.

[Mr Harper]

Comic Relief is tomorrow.

Violence against Women and Girls

Debate between Nigel Evans and Mark Harper

Thursday 14th February 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mr Harper]

I have just said that good teaching in schools is essential. I am not sure the route the right hon. Lady sets out is a valid one. I will take no lectures from her on the urgency of the task. She was in government for 13 years. She is now complaining about failing to legislate in the wash-up at the tail-end of 13 years of Labour government. If she meant what she said, she would have done something about it. I am afraid that her strictures are rather hollow.

This has been a very good debate. I think I am being glared at by Mr Deputy Speaker, and am being urged to bring it to a close. I am sorry that I have not been able to reference everyone who has spoken in this excellent debate. I think it will be followed by an equally excellent debate, with which Mr Deputy Speaker is keen to proceed.

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)]

For no more than two minutes, Fiona Mactaggart will sum up.

Public Procurement

Debate between Nigel Evans and Mark Harper

Tuesday 6th March 2012 Commons Chamber

[Mr Harper]

rose—

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)]

I call Mr William Cash.

Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill

Debate between Nigel Evans and Mark Harper

Tuesday 15th February 2011 Commons Chamber

[The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Mr Mark Harper)]

I beg to move, That this House agrees with Lords amendment 2.

[Mr Deputy Speaker]

With this it will be convenient to consider the following:

Lords amendments 3 to 7, 9 to 15, 18 and 21 to 26.

Lords amendment 27, and amendments (a) and (b) thereto.

Lords amendments 28 to 103.

Lords amendment 104, and amendment (a) thereto.

[Mr Harper]

It is no secret that the Bill has received extensive and lengthy debate both in this House and in the other place. It had eight days of debate in this House and the Lords Committee stage took place over the four months from November to February, taking 17 days and more than 110 hours. I think that, with one exception, it was the longest Committee stage of any Bill in my lifetime. I am glad that we finally now have the chance to consider the amendments made in the Lords.

The amendments in this first group encompass a range of changes that were made or accepted by the Government in the other place. I shall set out their effect and the Government’s overall approach briefly to make the best use of time available for debate. The Government have been consistently clear about the fact that we are prepared to make changes to the Bill where we believe they will make genuine improvements and will not undermine the key principles underpinning the Bill. Those principles are clear and we believe they are right. [Interruption.] Will the hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant) just calm down for a moment and let me proceed? The people should be given the chance to vote on the electoral system that is used to elect Members of Parliament and we should have a system for drawing up constituencies that better ensures that voters have an equal say wherever in the United Kingdom they live.

We have made changes to the Bill in response to points that were made in this House. On the referendum, we accepted changes to the wording of the question, and we also accepted amendments from the Select Committee on Political and Constitutional Reform to clarify the regulation of spending by media outlets during the referendum campaign and to remove the power that has existed since the 1940s for a Minister to modify a boundary commission’s recommendations.

In the House of Lords, we accepted or made a number of amendments on both parts of the Bill. We accepted and made technically effective an amendment in part 1, which relates to the holding of the referendum, that would allow the date of the referendum to be moved if practical reasons made it impossible or impracticable to proceed on 5 May. We brought forward an amendment to part 2 on Report to change the consultation process, on the Boundary Commission’s recommendation, so that it includes public hearings. The hearings are intended to deal with the concern raised about the need for an oral element in the consultation process. We believe that they will provide an opportunity for the public and the parties to express their views, but in a way that will allow more effective engagement than the old, legalistic inquiry system.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Harper]

I beg to move, That this House disagrees with Lords amendment 16.

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)]

With this it will be convenient to discuss Lords amendment 19.

[Mr Harper]

The amendment would give the Boundary Commission the discretion to propose constituencies within an extended 15% range of the UK electoral quota in the event that a commission considered that exceptional local ties or geographical circumstances made it necessary for a viable constituency. That means that the plus or minus 5% rule could be extended to plus or minus 7.5% in the exceptional circumstances set out in the amendment.

The Government believe that the principle of “one vote, one value”, so that there are votes of more equal weight across the country, is paramount. That is the fundamental principle underpinning the Bill. It is not an abstract concept, nor is it, as some of our opponents like to say, about a slavish adherence to arithmetic. It is right for electors across the UK to have an equal say not just in who will be their local representative, but in who will form the Government of the day. For votes to have equal weight in a single member constituency system, the constituencies must contain a broadly equal number of electors.

The existing legislation that determines how the boundaries are to be drawn—the Parliamentary Constituencies Act 1986—also has that principle at its heart. Indeed, in one sense it could be argued that it involves a tighter rule, because it suggests that the Boundary Commission should aim for exact numerical equality, but the rules in that Act are contradictory and compromise the principle of equality. We see the large variations in the sizes of constituencies at the moment, which is why the Government’s proposals set a clear range for the number of electors that a constituency may contain.

I have already said that absolute equality is not practicable. There are a small number of specific exceptions, which recognise the practicalities of genuinely challenging geography: those are the two provisions that we inserted into the Bill at the beginning. I will not dwell on the subject of the Isle of Wight now; we will have an opportunity to do so later. More generally, the Bill allows for constituencies to vary by 5% either side of the quota. On the basis of the register data for 2009, that is about 8,000 electors. Within that range, commissions can take account of local circumstances.

Fixed-term Parliaments Bill

Debate between Nigel Evans and Mark Harper

Tuesday 18th January 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)]

That is most certainly not a point of order for me. I am sure that there are other ways in which the hon. Gentleman can express his views, and I am sure that the Deputy Prime Minister—like the Minister who is present—will be well aware of what has just been said. Please, Mr Harper, continue.

[Mr Harper]

I am grateful, Mr Deputy Speaker. I think that I drew a distinction between certain Members of the other place and the other place in general, about which I have no complaint.

My hon. Friend the Member for North East Somerset explained very clearly the effect of his new clause 3, and he was concerned about changes to clause 1 being made using powers in the Parliament Act 1911. It is already the case—this is a subject on which I agree with the hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant)—that the Parliament Act cannot be used to push through legislation that extends the life of Parliaments. One hon. Member—I think it was my hon. Friend the Member for Stone (Mr Cash)—pointed out that because of the Bill’s provisions allowing the Prime Minister to vary the date of an election by up to two months in an emergency, we cannot use the Parliament Act to push this legislation through against the wishes of the upper House. However, the new clause tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for North East Somerset would, as the hon. Member for Rhondda said, also prevent this House from reducing the length of a Parliament without the agreement of the other place. It does not seem desirable to put that provision in place.

Section 2 of the Parliament Act 1911, to which my hon. Friend’s new clause refers, sets out important rules about the relationship between this House and the other place. Those rules have been in place for some time, and the Government certainly do not intend to start changing that relationship. It is already the case that we cannot lengthen a Parliament, and given what I have said, we do not want to start changing the Parliament Act as my hon. Friend’s new clause would.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Deputy Speaker]

All I can say is that all the amendments and new clauses have been chosen in the right and proper way.

[Mr Harper]

Exactly; it is a very cunning new clause. My hon. Friend the Member for Stone put his finger on the point that an amendment simply to take away clause 2 would have been a wrecking amendment. The power of revival is the cunning disguise in which the new clause is wrapped.

My hon. Friend the Member for Harwich and North Essex (Mr Jenkin) described clause 2 as a fig leaf. I do not agree with that characterisation, but even if the House agreed with it, I am not sure that hon. Members would be as keen to remove the fig leaf as my hon. Friend the Member for Harwich and North Essex appeared to be. [Interruption.] No, that is what he said. He said that it was a fig leaf and that he wanted to remove it.

My hon. Friend the Member for Stone seemed to establish a new doctrine in his speech. He seemed to be suggesting that all Acts of Parliament should lapse at the end of a Parliament, just in case the new Parliament is of a different complexion and its Members disagree. He said that the House should not bind its successors. It is perfectly true that the House cannot bind its successors, because each successive Parliament can repeal Acts; that is the normal way. However, it is not the normal procedure for all Acts to lapse at the end of a Parliament, just in case the new Parliament disagrees with them.

The Government hope, although they cannot bind their successors, that the public and future Parliaments will find the arrangements in the Bill acceptable and will keep them in place. Future Parliaments are, of course, at liberty to change them. However, we do not think that there should be what my hon. Friend the Member for Stone described as a sunset clause to remove the powers. If clause 2 were removed as he suggested, it would effectively give back the power to the Prime Minister to dissolve Parliament at will. We have argued throughout the passage of the Bill that that would be undesirable.

Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill

Debate between Nigel Evans and Mark Harper

Tuesday 2nd November 2010 Commons Chamber

[Mr Harper]

Yes, of course. I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for giving me the opportunity to confirm that. I will write to the hon. Member for Foyle, copy my reply to the hon. Member for Rhondda and place it in the Library for the benefit of all hon. Members. [Interruption.]

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)]

Order. A number of private conversations are going on, and I am finding it difficult to listen to the Minister. If Members want to have a chat, will they please go outside the Chamber?

[Mr Harper]

I am grateful, Mr Deputy Speaker.

I have just one further point. The hon. Member for Foyle also raised an issue about whether the language on the forms was clear enough about spoiled ballot papers. The form mentions the need to return all the spoiled papers, but that might leave some ambiguity, so I will reflect further on it. There are two things worth saying. We have an opportunity to deal with the issue, but the hon. Gentleman will know that at an earlier stage of our proceedings, the House agreed to an amendment that gave the Electoral Commission permission to make the forms—but not the ballot papers—more accessible for disabled people and easier for voters to understand. To be clear, if, after the Bill receives its Royal Assent, as I hope it does, any further issues are raised as to whether the forms are as clear as they could be, the Electoral Commission will have the power to make those changes to facilitate accessibility or make the forms easier to use.

Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill

Debate between Nigel Evans and Mark Harper

Monday 25th October 2010 Commons Chamber

[Mr Harper]

I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.

[The First Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means (Mr Nigel Evans)]

With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:

Amendment (a) to new clause 20, leave out subsection (1) and insert—

(1) Where the date of the poll for a local authority election in England is the same as the date of the poll for the referendum, the polls are to be taken together.’.

Amendment (b) to new clause 20, leave out subsection (4) and insert—

(4) Where the date of the poll for a Northern Ireland Assembly Election is the same as the date of the poll for the referendum, the polls are to be taken together.’.

Amendment (c) to new clause 20, in subsection (8), leave out from ‘“local referendum in England”’ to the second “Local Government Act 2000;”

Amendment (d) to new clause 20, in subsection (8), leave out from ‘“Northern Ireland local election”’ to “Electoral Law Act (Northern Ireland) 1962”.

Government new schedule 2—Combination of polls: England.

Amendment (a) to new schedule 2, in paragraph 11, in sub-paragraph (1) leave out ‘15th’ and insert ‘28th’.

Amendment (b) to new schedule 2, after paragraph 12, insert—

‘Absent voter application

12A An application under regulation 51(4)b of the Representation of the People (England and Wales) Regulations 2001, SI 2001/341, for an absent vote must state whether it is made for parliamentary elections, local government elections, referendums or all of them.’.

Amendment (c) to new schedule 2, leave out paragraph 15 and insert—

‘15 (1) The Chief Counting Officer shall select the colour of the ballot paper used for the referendum.

(2) The other ballot papers used for any relevant election shall be of a different colour from that selected by the Chief Counting Officer.’.

Amendment (d) to new schedule 2, in paragraph 17, leave out sub-paragraph (1) and insert—

‘(1) The official poll cards used for the referendum and for the relevant elections must be combined for all electors qualified to vote in all the polls.’.

Amendment (e) to new schedule 2, in paragraph 18, leave out sub-paragraph (1) and (2) and insert—

(1) Separate ballot boxes must be used for the referendum to those used for other relevant elections taking place on the same day.

(2) Each ballot box must be marked to show—

(a) the referendum or relevant election to which it relates, and

(b) the colour of ballot papers that should be placed in it.’.

Amendment (g) to new schedule 2, in paragraph 27, in sub-paragraph (1), leave out

‘If the counting officer thinks fit, the same copy of the register of electors may’

and insert

‘Separate registers of electors must’.

Amendment (h) to new schedule 2, in paragraph 27, leave out sub-paragraphs (2) to (4).

Amendment (i) to new schedule 2, in paragraph 40, at the end of sub-paragraph (3) insert

‘or

(c) the person is a Member of Parliament.’.

Amendment (j) to new schedule 2, after paragraph 43 insert—

‘Priority in counting of votes

43A Counting officers must give priority to the counting of ballots cast in—

(a) the respective elections to the Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales devolved administrations, and

(b) local council elections in each part of the United Kingdom.’.

Amendment (k) to new schedule 2, in paragraph 44, at the end of sub-paragraph (1), at end of sub-sub-paragraph (a) insert

‘containing ballot papers for the referendum vote.’.

Amendment (l) to new schedule 2, in paragraph 44, at the end of sub-paragraph (1), at end of sub-sub-paragraph (b) insert

‘containing ballot papers for the referendum vote.’.

Amendment (m) to new schedule 2, in paragraph 44, at the end of sub-paragraph (3), at end of sub-sub-paragraph (a) insert

‘containing ballot papers for the referendum vote.’.

Amendment (n) to new schedule 2, in paragraph 44, at the end of sub-paragraph (3), at end of sub-sub-paragraph (b) insert

‘containing ballot papers for the referendum vote.’.

Amendment (o) to new schedule 2, in Part 2, in the second column, in the entry relating to Regulation 71, leave out ‘eleventh’ and insert ‘fifteenth’.

Government new schedule 3—Combination of polls: Wales.

Amendment (a) to new schedule 3, in paragraph 15, leave out sub-paragraph (1) and insert—

"(1) The official poll cards used for the referendum and the Assembly elections must be combined for all electors qualified to vote in all the polls.’.

Amendment (b) to new schedule 3, in paragraph 17, leave out sub-paragraphs (1) and (2) and insert—

“(1) Separate ballot boxes must be used for the referendum to that used for the Assembly elections.

(2) Each ballot box must be marked to show—

(a) the referendum or Assembly election to which it relates, and

(b) the colour of ballot papers that should be placed in it.’.

Amendment (c) to new schedule 3, leave out paragraph 18 and insert—

“18 (1) The Chief Counting Officer shall select the colour of the ballot paper used for the referendum.

(2) The other ballot papers used for the Assembly elections shall be of a different colour from that selected by the Chief Counting Officer.’.

Amendment (e) to new schedule 3, in paragraph 45, at the end of sub-paragraph (3) insert

‘or

(c) the person is a Member of Parliament.’.

Amendment (f) to new schedule 3, in paragraph 47, in sub-paragraph (1)(d), leave out ‘separate’ and insert ‘keep separate throughout’.

Amendment (g) to new schedule 3, in paragraph 49, sub-paragraph (1), at the end of sub-sub-paragraph (a) insert

‘containing ballot papers for the referendum vote.’.

Amendment (h) to new schedule 3, in paragraph 49, at the end of sub-paragraph (1), at end of sub-sub-paragraph (b) insert

‘containing ballot papers for the referendum vote.’.

Amendment (i) to new schedule 3, in paragraph 49, at the end of sub-paragraph (3), at end of sub-sub-paragraph (a) insert

‘containing ballot papers for the referendum vote.’.

Amendment (j) to new schedule 3, in paragraph 49, at the end of sub-paragraph (3), at end of sub-sub-paragraph (b) insert

‘containing ballot papers for the referendum vote.’.

Government new schedule 4—Combination of polls: Scotland.

Amendment (a) to new schedule 4, paragraph 15, leave out sub-paragraph (1) and insert—

“(1) The official poll cards used for the referendum and for the Scottish parliamentary election must be combined for all electors qualified to vote in all the polls.’.

Amendment (b) to new schedule 4, paragraph 17, leave out sub-paragraphs (1) and (2) and insert—

“(1) Separate ballot boxes must be used for the referendum to that used for the Scottish parliamentary elections.

(2) Each ballot box must be marked to show—

(a) the referendum or parliamentary election to which it relates, and

(b) the colour of ballot papers that should be placed in it.’.

Amendment (c) to new schedule 4, leave out paragraph 18 and insert—

“18 (1) The Chief Counting Officer shall select the colour of the ballot paper used for the referendum.

(2) The ballot papers used for constituency or regional ballots shall be of a different colour from that selected by the Chief Counting Officer.’.

Amendment (e) to new schedule 4, in paragraph 42, at the end of sub-paragraph (3) insert

‘or

(c) the person is a Member of Parliament.’.

Amendment (f) to new schedule 4, in paragraph 46, in sub-paragraph (1)(d), leave out ‘separate’ and insert ‘keep separate throughout.’.

Amendment (g) to new schedule 4, in paragraph 48, at the end of sub-paragraph (1) (a)insert

‘containing ballot papers for the referendum vote.’.

Amendment (h) to new schedule 4, in paragraph 48, at the end of sub-paragraph (1), at end of sub-sub-paragraph (1)(b) insert

‘containing ballot papers for the referendum vote.’.

Amendment (i) to new schedule 4, in paragraph 48, at the end of sub-paragraph (3), at end of sub-sub-paragraph (a) insert

‘containing ballot papers for the referendum vote.’.

Amendment (j) to new schedule 4, in paragraph 48, at the end of sub-paragraph (3), at end of sub-sub-paragraph (b) insert

‘containing ballot papers for the referendum vote.’.

Government new schedule 5—Combination of polls: Northern Ireland.

Amendment (a) to new schedule 5, leave out paragraph 12 and insert—

“12 (1) The Chief Electoral Officer shall select the colour of the ballot paper used for the referendum.

(2) The ballot papers used for any relevant elections shall be of a different colour from that selected by the Chief Electoral Officer.’.

Amendment (b) to new schedule 5, in paragraph 14, leave out sub-paragraph (1) and insert—

“(1) The official poll cards used for the referendum and for the relevant elections must be combined for all electors qualified to vote in all the polls.’.

Amendment (c ) to new schedule 5, in paragraph 15, leave out sub-paragraphs (1) and (2) and insert—

“(1) Separate ballot boxes must be used for the referendum to that used for other relevant elections taking place on the same day.

(2) Each ballot box must be marked to show—

(a) the referendum or relevant election to which it relates, and

(b) the colour of ballot papers that should be placed in it.’.

Amendment (e) to new schedule 5, in paragraph 31, at the end of sub-paragraph (3) insert

‘or is a Member of Parliament.’.

Amendment (f) to new schedule 5, in paragraph 32, in sub-paragraph (1)(c), leave out ‘separate’ and insert ‘keep separate throughout.’.

Amendment (g) to new schedule 5, in paragraph 33, at the end of sub-paragraph (1)(a), insert

‘containing ballot papers for the referendum vote.’.

Amendment (h) to new schedule 5, in paragraph 33, at the end of sub-paragraph (1)(b) insert

‘containing ballot papers for the referendum vote.’.

Amendment (i) to new schedule 5, in paragraph 48, at the end of sub-paragraph (3)(a) insert

‘containing ballot papers for the referendum vote.’.

Amendment (j) to new schedule 5, in paragraph 48, sub-paragraph (3), at end of sub-sub-paragraph (b) insert

‘containing ballot papers for the referendum vote.’.

--- Later in debate ---

[The First Deputy Chairman]

It is all dependent on how long this particular set of new clauses and schedules are talked to. Clearly, if we get to them before the knife is reached at 11 o’clock, they will be taken with the amendments, but that changes if we go beyond 11 o’clock.

[Mr Harper]

Encouragingly, the hon. Member for Rhondda took rather less time speaking to the previous new clause than he took last week. That may be a step forward and perhaps we may indeed—

--- Later in debate ---

[The First Deputy Chairman]

Please resume your seat.

[Mr Harper]

I am grateful, Mr Evans: I had got the hon. Lady’s point. I am not trying to minimise her concern, but I note that none of the devolved Parliaments or Assemblies has passed any formal motions or resolutions expressing that view to this House.

Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill

Debate between Nigel Evans and Mark Harper

Monday 18th October 2010 Commons Chamber

[The First Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means (Mr Nigel Evans)]

A statement was made by the Minister earlier about thresholds and I am sure that it will all become clear to the hon. Gentleman as he stays for the rest of this evening’s proceedings.

[Mr Harper]

I beg to move amendment 268, page 28, line 2, at end insert—

‘Modification of forms

9A (1) The Chief Counting Officer may, for the purpose of making a relevant form easier for voters to understand or use, specify modifications that are to be made to the wording or appearance of the form.

(2) In paragraph (1) “relevant form” means any of the following—

(a) Forms 3 to 11, 14 and 16 in Part 2 of this Schedule;

(b) the form of the notice set out in rule 16(7).

(3) In this Part of this Act a reference to a form is to be read as a reference to that form with any modifications specified under paragraph (1).

(4) Where a form is modified by virtue of paragraph (1), section 26(2) of the Welsh Language Act 1993 applies as if the modified form were specified by this Act.’.

[The First Deputy Chairman]

With this it will be convenient to discuss the following: Government amendments 274 to 278, 281 to 305, 308, 323 and 324.

[Mr Harper]

These amendments make several modifications for the purpose of adding clarity to the forms and statutory questions that a presiding officer may put to voters in certain specified circumstances in light of the recommendations of the Electoral Commission, Scope and electoral administrators. I referred to these amendments earlier, when we were debating the amendments tabled by the right hon. Member for Cardiff South and Penarth (Alun Michael).

We recognise the important role that the chief counting officer has to play in the successful running of the poll so, at the request of the Electoral Commission, amendment 268 gives the chief counting officer power to amend the wording and appearance of voter-facing forms, except the ballot paper, for the purposes of making them easier to use or understand. This power will extend to forms 3 to 11, which are the form of postal voting statement, the declaration of identity, official poll cards and poll cards for postal or proxy voters; form 14, which is guidance for voters; and form 16, which is the form of declaration to be made by the companion of a voter with disabilities.

We have also made some other minor amendments to improve the clarity of the material seen by voters, including to the instructions on how to vote; to ensure that voters in devolved areas in particular are clear that the referendum relates only to the UK parliamentary system; and to ensure that the questions put to voters prior to being given a ballot paper are clear for areas in which more than one referendum may be taking place.

Following a recommendation from the Electoral Commission, we have sought to make the voting instructions clearer by stipulating that voters must vote in one box only. Amendments 287,291, 293 to 298, 303 and 308 effect this change at the relevant points in the Bill.

Amendments 282 and 283 give effect to the recommendations in the Electoral Commission’s guidance on prescribing voter materials to move that voting instruction to directly above the location of the boxes where electors will make their mark.

We have also tabled amendments to make it clear that the referendum provided for by this Bill relates to the electoral system for UK parliamentary elections, as opposed to electoral systems electing members to devolved legislatures. That issue came out of the research that the Electoral Commission did when it was looking at the question. Amendments 281, 284, 286, 289, 290, 304, 305, 323, and 324 achieve that objective.

We have also tabled amendments to make it clear that the referendum provided for by this Bill relates to the electoral system for UK parliamentary elections, as opposed to electoral systems electing members to devolved legislatures. That was an issue that came out of the research that the Electoral Commission did when it was looking at the question. Amendments 281, 284, 286, 289, 290, 304, 305, 323, and 324 achieve that objective.

Given that mayoral referendums might also be taking place on 5 May next year, we have introduced amendments to clarify the statutory questions that the presiding officer may put to voters requesting a ballot paper for the referendum for which the Bill provides. The amendments adapt those questions so that the presiding officer must specifically ask whether that voter has already voted in the referendum on the electoral system for UK parliamentary elections. Amendments 274 to 278 effect that change at the relevant points in the Bill.

Amendment 302 adds a title to guidance for voters to specify that the guidance to which the form refers relates to the referendum on the voting system for UK parliamentary elections. Amendments 285 and 288 give clarity to electoral administrators on where the official mark confirming the authenticity of the ballot paper may be placed on the form. It is important that no wording other than specified in the Bill appears on the front of the ballot paper. Any official marks that contain words, letters or numbers must therefore be printed on the back of the form, which will ensure that ballot papers are as simple and clear as possible for the voters to use.

Following advice from the chief counting officer in Northern Ireland, we have introduced amendments 299 to 301 to remove unnecessary forms from the Bill, as in practice separate poll cards are not sent to electors voting by post in that part of the United Kingdom.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Harper]

Further to that point of order, Mr Evans. If the hon. Member for Rhondda genuinely thought that this was the most important part of the Bill, he should have thought about that when he moved some of his less important amendments today. That was a time-wasting exercise and nothing else.

I gave a clear commitment on Second Reading that the Government would do everything within their power to ensure that we had a debate and a vote on all the key issues of the Bill. We provided extra time in the programme motion last week. Reaching a point in the debate, of course, requires Members to exercise some discipline, which they were incapable of doing today. What is left within my power is to propose amendment 3 to enable the Committee to vote on it, but I ask my colleagues to vote against it. I want to facilitate the opportunity for this Committee to vote.

[The First Deputy Chairman]

I have listened carefully to the several points of order that Members have made. What the Government propose is orderly under Standing Order No. 83D(2), although it is, as some hon. Members have observed, somewhat unusual. I am sure that hon. Members will also have noted the opportunities open to them, as has been remarked, on Report. I should just remind Members of the rule on voice and vote. It is possible to vote against one’s own amendment, but one cannot shout “Aye” and then vote “No”. We now move on to clause 6.



Clause 6

Commencement or repeal of amending provisions

Amendment proposed: 3, page 4, line 28, after ‘“No”’, insert

‘and the number of electors casting a vote in the referendum is equal to or greater than fifty per cent. of those entitled to cast such a vote,’.—(Mr Harper.)

Question put, That the amendment be made.

Question negatived.