European Union (Approval of Treaty Amendment Decision) Bill [Lords]

Debate between Nigel Evans and Denis MacShane

Monday 10th September 2012 Commons Chamber

[Mr MacShane]

If I may, I will try to speak to the clause. I might make other comments on Third Reading, but I hope not to detain us long. What is extraordinary about this clause is its sheer impertinence. Our Eurosceptic friends in the Conservative party are for ever telling us that we do not want Europe interfering in our affairs. The proposed legislation, however, says that we should wait until every other national Parliament has made up its mind—

“laid an order certifying that the constitutional requirements of all the members states of the EU have been complied with.”

What business or right is it of this Committee to demand that the constitutional requirements of every other sovereign nation state be met before we make up our minds, and until

“all the related and legal challenges have been disposed of”?

Let us imagine each of the other 26 fellow EU member states adopting the same clause and waiting for their Parliament to ratify the ESM treaty and all legal challenges to be completed.

[The First Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means (Mr Nigel Evans)]

Order. The right hon. Gentleman is talking about amendment 1 as opposed to clause 1.

[Mr MacShane]

As ever, Mr Evans, you are right. I will not repeat my speech but I think the Committee has got the point.

National Referendum on the European Union

Debate between Nigel Evans and Denis MacShane

Monday 24th October 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)]

Order. He has not said anything yet.

[Mr MacShane]

In the spirit of the hon. Member for Broxbourne (Mr Walker), tonight I shall vote for parliamentary democracy and against plebiscites, and I urge all hon. and right hon. Members to do the same.

Eurozone

Debate between Nigel Evans and Denis MacShane

Monday 10th October 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)]

Order. I am going to ask for very short questions as we will move on at 5.45 pm, irrespective of whether Members are still standing.

[Mr Denis MacShane (Rotherham) (Lab)]

For five centuries, British policy has been to oppose any hegemon on Europe, whether a single religion, a single state, a single economic model or a single ideology. Why is the Chancellor so keen on creating a fiscal and monetary union that would dictate terms of commerce, trade and banking rules to this country?

Human Rights on the Indian Subcontinent

Debate between Nigel Evans and Denis MacShane

Thursday 15th September 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mr Denis MacShane (Rotherham) (Lab)]

On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. I have just received a communication from an Indian paper called Daijiworld. The headline reads, “India reacts strongly to British parliamentary debate on Kashmir”. We have not even had the debate and already a parliamentary democracy is telling us that we should not be having it. That is not quite a point of order, but this really is an insult from the Indian journalists who say we should not even be debating this in our own House of Commons.

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)]

Thank you, Mr MacShane. Perhaps you have just introduced a new practice in which people stand up and say, “Nearly point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker.” You are quite right: it was nearly a point of order but it certainly was not one for the Chair. However, it has been put on the record.

European Union Bill

Debate between Nigel Evans and Denis MacShane

Monday 11th July 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mr MacShane]

Does the right hon. Gentleman recall the referendums on Scottish and Welsh devolution in the late 1970s, which required a threshold that was not reached? That was a grotesque humiliation for the Labour Government and was an exultant moment of glory for the Conservatives as Mrs Thatcher swept forward to victory. You really should not bury your successful past so quickly.

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)]

Order. I am not trying to bury my unsuccessful past.

Wild Animals (Circuses)

Debate between Nigel Evans and Denis MacShane

Thursday 23rd June 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)]

Order. I know that Mr Pritchard is now going to move on to the substance of the motion before the House.

[Mr MacShane]

Further to that point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. Is there anything more important than a Member of this House being allowed to speak as he wishes and not being threatened and intimidated? This goes to the heart of what we should be debating.

[Mr Deputy Speaker]

We are here today to debate the motion before the House and that is exactly what we are now going to do.

Police Reform and Social Responsibility Bill

Debate between Nigel Evans and Denis MacShane

Thursday 31st March 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mr Denis MacShane (Rotherham) (Lab)]

The practice of the Prime Minister reading out the names of those who have fallen in Iraq or Afghanistan started in June 2003 with Tony Blair. It never happened before. Does my hon. Friend think that we should have read out those names in the Kosovo conflict, the first Iraq war or the Falklands conflict?

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)]

Order. We are going wide of the amendment.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr MacShane]

My point is that we have now instituted such draconian security systems as a result of the invasion of this House—I do not think the hon. Gentleman was here at the time—and the attack from the Gallery that things have become all but impossible, and the police famously do not have the flexibility to allow certain people to come through ahead of ordinary—

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)]

Order. I know that the right hon. Gentleman is in full flow, but he will see that we have before us amendment 162 and a lot of other amendments. There is a lot of meat here, and he is on another meal. I ask him to restrict himself to the amendments.

[Mr MacShane]

Having enjoyed many happy meals with you in Strasbourg, Mr Deputy Speaker, I always thought we were sharing the same plate.

I will not enter into the question of reading out the names of those who have fallen in war, on which my hon. Friend the Member for Newport West (Paul Flynn) animadverted at great length, and the curious proposition that if one person falls his name should be mentioned, but if 20 or 100 fall there are too many names to read out.

We return, then, to a very important point—the centrality of Parliament and all democratic institutions to which all people should have easy and free access. In several democracies, there is, for good reason, the notion of the parliamentary mile, which means that for approximately 1 mile—a given space—around a Parliament, there should be no protests or demonstrations, and lawmakers should be able to go into their Parliament without being shouted at, as we were here for a number of years by the Iraq war protester with the very loud loudspeaker. We should certainly be able to confront citizens who are protesting or on their way to attend their protests in Trafalgar square, Speakers’ Corner in Hyde park, or wherever. One only has to walk up Whitehall to see a demonstration outside the Prime Minister’s house every day, but a Parliament is not a pressure cooker; it is a place for deliberation.

I recall being outside the White House a few years ago when there was a protest about President Clinton’s policy on Haitian refugees, and Arthur Ashe, the tennis player, was arrested and taken away. Those protestors were very brave. They went there, they knew they were going to be arrested, and they were making a profound point. However, American law says that when the President is in the White House—or when Congress is sitting—people cannot organise demonstrations directly under his nose.

That is a very important principle that dates back to the 19th century—

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)]

Order. Being an apprentice Deputy Speaker, I should have reminded the right hon. Gentleman the first time he failed to do so that he must respond to the intervention that he has taken.

[Mr MacShane]

I am so sorry. I was just trying to put the interventions together to save time—your time, Mr Deputy Speaker.

I shall try to explain my point to the hon. Member for Cambridge. It is a concept common in many countries, and Britain can exclude itself from it, that the legislators of the democracy should be able to come to the area around the legislature—not around the Executive, not outside Downing street, not in the great centres where people gather such as Trafalgar square or Hyde park, and not anywhere else, such as outside embassies or town halls, but outside Parliament—without being told directly how or on what to vote at that moment. Anybody can come to my surgery on a Saturday or write to me to tell me how to vote. We have colluded in saying that Parliament needs to be protected from the people, which is why we have the absurd security systems that are now in place. If we do not re-establish the principle of parliamentarianism being something that requires reflection, debate and deliberation, with all of us voting in the Aye or the No Lobby to pass a law, and if we say that Parliament is simply an adjunct to a process of protest, it will weaken Parliament.

I will take the next intervention, but I will then sit down because other colleagues may want to speak.

European Union Bill

Debate between Nigel Evans and Denis MacShane

Tuesday 11th January 2011 Commons Chamber

[The First Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means (Mr Nigel Evans)]

I am listening carefully to Mr MacShane, and if he is out of order, I will call him out of order.

[Mr MacShane]

I am grateful, Mr Evans.

We have heard a wide range of speeches, including one from the right hon. Member for Wokingham (Mr Redwood). We had a wonderful seminar on constitutional law from the hon. Member for Stone, and we are discussing something of profound importance: whether or not our country and this Parliament want to stay in the European Union on the common terms dictated by the treaty.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr MacShane]

I would politely suggest to the hon. Gentleman that he wait until the early hours of Friday morning before he begins to smirk about Oldham.

[The First Deputy Chairman]

Order. We are definitely not on clause 18 at the moment.

[Mr MacShane]

I am a courteous, friendly fellow, Mr Evans, so I accept interventions even if they are points of order on the dark side of the moon.