Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Third sitting)

Debate between Nickie Aiken and Bob Blackman

Committee stage
Wednesday 1st May 2024 Public Bill Committees

[Nickie Aiken (Cities of London and Westminster) (Con)]

Q I want to go back to the vapes point. As we have all agreed and you have highlighted, vaping was, for all intents and purposes, a product to help people off tobacco, but it has become a product marketed in its own right. What are your personal and professional views on the Bill as it stands? It would stop people selling vapes to under-18s and stop members of the public or family members buying them on behalf of under-18s. Should we ban under-18s from using vapes full stop? Also, should we move vapes on to a prescription basis to ensure that they are aimed at people who want to give up smoking?

Professor Sir Gregor Ian Smith: My view on the Bill as it stands is that it is a starting point for how we take this work forward. It is adequate in that sense because this is a really important area. For me, the absolute priority has to be to remove young people’s ability to access vapes and so begin the journey to nicotine addiction.

I am not in favour of criminalising the possession of these products, but I am certainly in favour of banning their sale to younger people. If we can achieve that at this stage, and, as Sir Michael said in his previous answer, if we can begin to shift the culture so that people do not start to use vapes and begin to become addicted—potentially also by using other nicotine and tobacco products—for me that will be a good job done.

If we do things that way, it will allow us to protect the useful use of vapes: where people with a lifelong addiction to tobacco can use them as way to help them stop. That is the only justification that I can see now for the way we have set this up and for continuing to use vapes in society: as a useful tool for those with a pre-existing addiction to tobacco, so that they can reduce the harm and gradually stop using tobacco—through formal cessation services, as well.

Professor Sir Chris Whitty: I agree with Sir Gregor. To reiterate, the Minister wanted to get a balance and most people would agree that criminalising people for individual possession is a step further than anyone would want and is needed. I do not think there is a clamour for that from anybody, and I think it would not help the Bill.

On prescription vapes, I would like to see those available for use at the moment. So far—I will go into the reasons for this on another occasion—no products are available that we can prescribe. We would all very much like those products to be there so that people can prescribe them. That is different from saying that they should be only on prescription; at this point, we do not even have any products to prescribe at all. If we did, that would be a very firm step in the right direction, but it depends on the industry coming forward with products.

Speaking directly to the industry, I should say that I do think there is a very important niche for prescription vapes. They would be very useful for some people, particularly those on low incomes who, for other health reasons, have free prescriptions. I encourage anyone from the industry who is listening to think seriously about bringing forward a prescription vaping product appropriate for aiding people to quit.

[Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con)]

Q I think the whole panel have said they are 100% behind the Bill. It is great that the whole medical fraternity is going together, but are there any tweaks that you would like to see in the Bill that could make it stronger—for example, making age verification the same in England as it is in Scotland? One of our concerns is that we have a chance to get primary legislation in only once every 10 years or so, and doing it now would be far better than waiting.

Professor Sir Chris Whitty: I have had the privilege of being more heavily involved in this Bill than the other CMOs, so I am going to ask them to answer it. My short answer is that this is a fantastic Bill. What I do not want is for the Bill to be delayed and therefore to not get through in the parliamentary time available. There is always a danger with these things, particularly when we are up against the clock, of the best being the enemy of the good. This is more than good; this is an outstanding Bill, to be clear, in terms of the Prime Minister’s bravery in putting it forward and, I think, the huge support from the general public and massive support from those working in healthcare. Really, what we want to do is get this through. I fully accept the points you are making, but that is my real concern about proposing any additions. Maybe you can start with Sir Michael, then Sir Gregor and then Sir Frank.

Professor Sir Michael McBride: I think this is a situation where perfection risks snatching victory from us. The most important thing, having looked at the Bill closely, is that this is an excellent Bill. I think we have all indicated that this is a once-in-a-generation opportunity, as your question suggests. We need to seize this opportunity. I and my colleagues fully support this Bill. I think this is a point that we will look back on five or 10 years from now and we will say that we were on the right side of history in supporting the Bill. This will make a fundamental difference to the next generation and generations to follow. Again, it is entirely consistent with the commitment in the Northern Ireland Executive to gradually phase out tobacco smoking. I fully support the Bill as it stands.

Professor Sir Gregor Ian Smith: I have nothing much more to add. In my view, this is a momentous point in time when we have the ability to really safeguard the future health of generations of people who will not be exposed to the regretful, harmful addiction to tobacco that they might have encountered. I am very satisfied with the content of the Bill as it is just now. The point Sir Michael makes about perfection being the enemy of good is a really important one. This is an opportunity that, to be honest, I really did not anticipate seeing in my career, yet here we are discussing a potential piece of legislation that will allow us to improve the health of people in our country for years and generations to come. This is an opportunity that we cannot afford to miss.

Sir Francis Atherton: There are no changes to the primary legislation that I would recommend at the moment. One thing I would say is that in Wales, we were very impressed with the Khan review, which gave us a really good steer. Many of the Khan review recommendations will be dealt with through the Bill, while a couple will not. I think the Bill as it stands has enough flexibility, particularly around vaping, to allow secondary legislation to keep up with the industry as it adapts and as it tries to find ways around the barriers to getting young people addicted to nicotine.

If I had a wish from the Khan review, it would be around the industry making a contribution to those costs I was talking earlier—the cost to the NHS—so sort of a levy on the industry to correct the damage, or a polluter pays thing, as is being introduced for the gambling industry. However, I do not think that would fit at all with the current Bill.

Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Second sitting)

Debate between Nickie Aiken and Bob Blackman

Committee stage
Tuesday 30th April 2024 Public Bill Committees

[Nickie Aiken (Cities of London and Westminster) (Con)]

Q I have a question for Mr Fell. Obviously the Bill will cover shisha, so I would welcome your views on shisha smoking and whether there is more we can do within the Bill or in general to tighten up shisha smoking.

Greg Fell: I would say that we need a licensing scheme for shisha smoking, and probably more education about the fact that it is a potent way to consume large amounts of tobacco really quickly and is quite damaging for people’s lungs. I am not sure what more could be achieved in the Bill, but I would like to see a licensing scheme for shisha bars. We enforce the law to its limits, but there are some limits to it.

[Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con)]

Q I thank you for covering the issue of age verification; I think it is important to have a similar scheme across the UK. The other issue relating to licensing is that there are potentially two ways of licensing. One is to add to the existing alcohol licensing regime, and the other is to have a separate regime for vaping and tobacco. Which would you prefer to operate if we were to introduce a licensing scheme?

Cllr Fothergill: It is not a topic that we have a policy position on, but my personal view is that it would need to be a separate scheme, because it would have separate enforcement and separate legalities within it. It needs to be very clear for trading standards what they are enforcing against, whereas alcohol is quite different. We should not mix the two just because they both need licensing. I think that they need to be separate.

Supported Housing (Regulatory Oversight) Bill

Debate between Nickie Aiken and Bob Blackman

Report stage
Friday 3rd March 2023 Commons Chamber

[Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con)]

At this stage, I will confine my remarks to the three amendments tabled; I will have more to say on Third Reading. The amendments stem from the very healthy cross-party debate we had in Committee on four amendments that were tabled at that stage.

The first amendment, as the Minister has outlined, relates to clarification in the Bill, and it has my full support. The clear point is that it allows the Secretary of State

“to designate the district of every local housing authority in England”

for the purposes of the regulations. That confirms that licensing regulations may be provided by every local authority in England, as opposed to only a few; while possibly only a few will require such measures now, this is a rapidly growing market and we must ensure that the legislation is future-proofed and that rogue landlords are held to account throughout the country rather than, as the Minister rightly says, moving from one area to another.

I ask the Minister, when we look at the regulations that will underpin this legislation, to look at grouping local authorities together to form a licensing regime, rather than relying on relatively small district housing authorities, which may only have one or two units within their area and will therefore find it overbearing to have that regulation and a whole bureaucratic structure just within that area.

[Nickie Aiken (Cities of London and Westminster) (Con)]

I welcome this Bill and, having served on the Bill Committee, I am aware of its importance. I welcome my hon. Friend’s point about grouping councils together and I highly recommend the Minister looking at that. I was responsible for bringing children’s services together with Hammersmith and Fulham and Kensington and Chelsea when I was children’s services lead at Westminster Council, so I know how important it is that we ensure that local authorities, where possible, can work together, not only to be more cost-effective, but to provide a better service.

[Bob Blackman]

There are also several advantages beyond those my hon. Friend mentions. Providers that provide across more than one district housing authority will then have one set of regulations to abide by rather than, potentially, a number of different ones. That was the original intent of the Bill: to ensure that we deal with the rogue landlords and encourage the good providers to carry on with the excellent work they do. We also need to ensure that no one can slip through the net as a rogue provider, so I am glad the Minister has put forward that proposal.

As my hon. Friend the Minister has said, various different providers are exploiting the system via internet and other social media activities. I recommend her taking a look at a new set-up called RoomMatch, which I believe is just about to be released, and which enables users to look at what providers are providing—both the quality of accommodation and the support provided—to assist those placing vulnerable people in those types of accommodation. At the same time, the people going into that type of accommodation can view it virtually before they get anywhere near it.

The amendment will prevent unlawful providers that have had regulations imposed as a result of the Bill by the local authority in which they operate from simply upping sticks and moving to a nearby authority that does not have regulations, and then continuing to exploit vulnerable tenants for vast quantities of money while still providing a shamefully inadequate level of care. That is the big challenge. Unfortunately, I have had experience of seeing some of that; it is truly dreadful what we put certain vulnerable people through. Allowing providers to set up somewhere else and continue to exploit people would leave the purpose of the Bill unachieved. I am delighted that the amendment has been tabled; I think it will prevent the worst-case scenario.

It may seem unlikely to some people that the aforementioned case could take place, but I have visited numerous examples of such supported housing. The set-up is extremely quick, and there are low start-up costs, so rogues can set up very quickly and far too easily. They do not need to obtain planning permission, because of the permitted development rights they acquire when providing supported accommodation. Consequently, they can immediately start up and falsely advertise the property on social media networks as good quality with a high level of care. Residents promptly apply, particularly because there is currently a limited amount of affordable housing in the private market.

Almost immediately, tenants are found, and the high rent payments start coming in. To be clear, this is an industry that, when abused, pulls in huge profit margins, so it is completely within the rogue landlord’s interest to set up in another district, even if it is only for a year, before the housing authority introduces regulations. I welcome this amendment, which will send the strongest possible signal to those who wish to abuse vulnerable tenants.

Amendment 2 will enable the licensing regulations under clause 4 to include in the list of conditions attached to a licence requirements related to the needs assessment of those looking to enter exempt accommodation and supported housing accommodation, and it has my complete support. I commend the excellent report that the Levelling Up, Housing and Communities Committee did on this. Its Chairman, the hon. Member for Sheffield South East (Mr Betts), tabled the amendment in Committee, and I am glad that the Minister agreed to look at it further and refine it to make sure it was fit for purpose. I am glad that she has agreed to adopt the amendment, and I thank her and the hon. Member for Sheffield South East for their contributions and advice relating to it.

I emphasise that good providers have nothing to fear. I have been to many supported housing units where the first thing they do is conduct a needs assessment of the individuals. If a provider is possibly taking someone for two years, they need to assess their needs, so that they can provide the right level of support. It is a scandal that many rogue providers provide no support whatsoever. This amendment is extremely welcome. It has support from Members on both sides of the House and has been broadly welcomed and accepted by local authorities, housing providers and charitable bodies across the sector, which is incredibly reassuring.

At present, the Bill stipulates that the conditions that may be attached to a licence include conditions relating to the standard of accommodation; conditions relating to the use of accommodation; conditions relating to the provision of care, support or supervision; and conditions requiring compliance with national supported housing standards, when we eventually publish them. Amendment 2 will add to that:

“conditions requiring the carrying out of assessments of the needs of residents… and relating to the conduct of such assessments”.

Fundamentally, this means that residents of supported accommodation must have an initial assessment of the level of their needs, to ensure that they have access to the correct amount of care and appropriate care relating to their specific complex needs. As we are all aware, every case is unique, and no two individuals will have exactly the same requirements. I am confident that this amendment will help residents to receive the best care—helping them eventually to stand on their own two feet, rebuild their lives and probably enter the private housing market in future. Local authorities can be held responsible for initiating these assessments and ensuring enforcement by all supported housing providers in their districts. The amendment will ensure that every local authority carries that forward and achieves the best outcome for residents.

Amendment 3 stems from discussions with the Local Government Association; I declare an interest, as a vice-president of the LGA. The LGA is the body that was previously named, which meant that it was consulted on all aspects of licensing regulations. However, as a localist, I believe it is right that local housing authorities and social services authorities are the ones consulted, so that each authority can have its views taken into account by Ministers when decisions are made. Stipulating the LGA as a consultee risked local authorities, as delivery partners, not having the primary opportunity to consult on elements that they will consequently be responsible for enforcing, so amending the Bill in this way is clearly the right way forward. I am pleased that the Local Government Association is highly supportive of the amendment. It has assured me and other local authorities that it will continue to work with colleagues and officials across central Government, other local authorities and accommodation providers to support the future consultation on the Bill. As this will be the case, it has been explicitly named, as per the amendment. The amendment is extremely welcome; it clarifies a point, and I endorse it completely.

I am thankful to the Minister for honouring her pledges in Committee by tabling the amendments, which I wholeheartedly support.

Amendment 1 agreed to.

Clause 5

Further provision about licensing regulations

Amendment made: 2, page 5, line 41, at end insert—

“(ba) conditions requiring the carrying out of assessments of the needs of residents (or potential residents) and relating to the conduct of such assessments;”.—(Felicity Buchan.)

This amendment enables licensing regulations under clause 4(1) or (3) to provide that conditions attached to a licence may include conditions relating to needs assessments.

Clause 6

Consultation

Amendment made: 3, page 7, line 4, leave out paragraph (a) and insert—

“(a) each local housing authority in England,

(aa) each social services authority in England,”.—(Felicity Buchan.)

This amendment substitutes local housing authorities in England and social services authorities in England for the Local Government Association in the list of persons the Secretary of State must consult before making licensing regulations under clause 4(1) or (3).

Third Reading

Supported Housing (Regulatory Oversight) Bill

Debate between Nickie Aiken and Bob Blackman

Committee stage
Wednesday 11th January 2023 Public Bill Committees

[Bob Blackman]

Clause 2 builds on the advice to be provided to the Secretary of State and covers local housing strategies. One of the things we established during the Select Committee inquiry was, as has been said by the Chair of the Committee, that it is a bit of a wild west show out there in terms of how supported accommodation is provided. There is a lack of regulation and scrutiny, and even in local authorities such as Birmingham, which has introduced its own scheme, the rogue landlords refuse to comply.

The clause requires local authorities to review the exempt accommodation in their area, so that we can establish exactly how much there is out there. One of the problems that has been encountered as we have had discussions on the progress of the Bill is the lack of data. This issue is not limited to Birmingham. It is spreading out all over the country, in some quite strange places. I know it is the case in, for example, Scarborough, Blackpool and Southwark.

[Nickie Aiken (Cities of London and Westminster) (Con)]

I thank my hon. Friend for giving way, and I welcome his Bill. In a former life I was cabinet member for public protection, and under that came the environmental health service. I was always shocked when I got my monthly reports about the shocking housing conditions in the private rented sector. Does my hon. Friend agree that this Bill will hopefully do something to give tenants the confidence to go to local authorities and show that they are living in dreadful conditions, so that councils can then go after these landlords? Too often tenants do not feel that they should go and speak to a councillor or their council, because they fear being evicted by their landlords.

[Bob Blackman]

I thank my hon. Friend for that intervention. One of the challenges here is that we are talking about some of the most vulnerable people in society. They may be mentally ill, physically ill or recovering from drug addiction or a gambling addiction. They may have left the armed forces or prison. There are all sorts of reasons why someone would be in supported accommodation. I will reflect on that as we go through this part of the Bill.

One of the things we established during the Select Committee inquiry was that often tenants are scared stiff to speak up for themselves for fear of being evicted. Rogue landlords will typically say to people, “If you don’t conform and do what you’re told, you will be out on the streets. And by the way, the local housing authority won’t house you, so you could end up rough sleeping and being very vulnerable.” That is the sort of intimidation they face.

The clause goes into some detail about making sure that local authorities review the need in their area, including the type and extent of accommodation. Without that data, it is very difficult to exercise any form of control. That is why the clause gives the local authority a duty to carry out a review and produce a strategy. It may be that certain areas of the country do not have a need—I doubt that, but some may claim they have no need for any supported housing.” None the less, almost all local authorities will be required to produce a plan and make sure that they interact with social services and set out what is going to be provided and to what standards, because no one should be forced to live in substandard accommodation, particularly people in these circumstances.

I have had the opportunity of speaking to many providers of accommodation of this type. They recognise the vulnerability of people, but often they have no interaction with the local authority because they provide the services directly. We are seeking here to make sure that the local authority establishes how much need there is in its area, and then makes sure that that need is met. Without a strategy, an overall view cannot be provided.