Oral Answers to Questions

Nick Harvey Excerpts

Tuesday 24th February 2015 Commons Chamber

[Jane Ellison]

I am afraid that the hon. Gentleman has a dismal track record of campaigning on this issue. We have all seen the leaflets being put out in west London. I can only say to his constituents that in the run-up to the election they would glean more from reading their tea leaves than from reading his leaflets if they want to know the truth about the NHS in west London.

[Sir Nick Harvey (North Devon) (LD)]

T1. If he will make a statement on his departmental responsibilities.

[The Secretary of State for Health (Mr Jeremy Hunt)]

At the end of this Parliament, and before returning, I trust, to the same side of this Chamber in late May, I am pleased to update the House on NHS work force numbers. On the back of a strong economy, our NHS now has more doctors, nurses and midwives than ever before in its history, including 7,500 more nurses and 9,500 more doctors. The result is 9 million more operations during this Parliament than the previous Parliament, fewer people waiting a long time for their operations, and a start in putting right the scandal of short-staffed wards that we inherited and were highlighted by the Francis report. Indeed, last year the Commonwealth Fund said that under this Government the NHS has become the safest, most patient-centred and overall best health care system in any major country.

[Mr Speaker]

Let me point out that topical questions and answers should be brief. It is a rank discourtesy—[Interruption.] Order. It is a rank discourtesy to the House to expatiate at length and thereby to deny other Members the chance to put their questions. It will not happen. Simple, short, factual answers are what is required.

[Sir Nick Harvey]

In the past couple of days, a number of Devon and Cornwall hospitals have declared black alert status, meaning, essentially, that they are full and cannot cope with any more demand. Do Ministers therefore understand the public concern that the clinical commissioning group is considering closing beds in community hospitals, including Ilfracombe and South Molton in my constituency? Can anything more be done to help rural health economies that are trying to restructure but already struggling to cope with existing demand?

[Mr Hunt]

We do understand those concerns. It is absolutely essential that CCGs make sure that they have the right bed capacity to deal with the pressures of winters.

Oral Answers to Questions

Nick Harvey Excerpts

Tuesday 21st October 2014 Commons Chamber

[Mr Jeremy Hunt]

We have not just protected the NHS budget, but increased it in real terms, which I think is a huge achievement given the state of the economy we inherited. [Interruption.] I simply say to the hon. Lady that the way to protect and secure NHS funding for the future is by making sure that there is a strong economy to pay for it. That is the single most important thing of all.

[Sir Nick Harvey (North Devon) (LD)]

rose—

[Mr Speaker]

Last but not least we shall hear from a Devon knight.

[Sir Nick Harvey]

Thank you, Mr Speaker.

Devon clinical commissioning group is embarking on a major programme of change next year, closing community hospital beds and replacing them with services at home. Do Ministers see that public and staff would have more confidence in the new services if they were being worked up first before getting rid of the existing services? Could the better care fund put money into the transition?

[Norman Lamb]

I thank my hon. Friend for that question. The better care fund is the biggest ever transfer of resources to preventive care and for integrated care. I saw last week in my hon. Friend’s own county fantastic integrated care in Torbay and Southern Devon NHS Trust, but I would be happy to discuss his particular concerns as soon as possible.

Roaccutane

Nick Harvey Excerpts

Tuesday 3rd December 2013 Westminster Hall

[Sir Nick Harvey (North Devon) (LD)]

It is good, Mr Streeter, to have the opportunity to debate this topic this afternoon. I have been aware of the issue for a long time. Roaccutane raises a lot of understandable passion among those who are directly affected. It is a form of the drug isotretinoin, used to treat severe acne and manufactured by Swiss pharmaceutical giant Roche. It was licensed for use in the UK 30 years ago, in 1983. Since then, in the UK alone, it has been implicated in reports of 878 psychiatric disorders, including 44 suspected suicides.

Next month, in January, it will be 10 years since my constituents’ son, Jon Medland, tragically took his own life while studying for a medical degree in Manchester. Having heard of its “miraculous” effects, Jon began taking Roaccutane to clear a relatively mild case of acne. Just three and a half weeks later, he died, having transformed from a successful, outgoing, happy young man to a withdrawn and depressed individual. Jon had never suffered from depression. Everything in his case points to an adverse reaction to the medicine. As the coroner said:

“For a drug to affect a person of a very solid life foundation...deserves further investigation”.

Despite a number of similar cases and mounting scientific evidence, we seem to have lost sight of the precautionary principle when it comes to Roaccutane. It is impossible for my constituents—Jon’s parents, Pamela and Jonathan, who are here today—and the other families affected, to achieve genuine closure while young lives are still at risk and reports continue to come in.

The purpose of today’s debate is to call for a thorough re-examination of the evidence and an investigation into the use of Roaccutane, for stricter guidelines to medical professionals on prescribing the drug and for the Department of Health and the Medicines and Healthcare products Regulatory Agency to show greater will in warning of the risks.

[Richard Drax (South Dorset) (Con)]

I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for North Devon (Sir Nick Harvey) on securing this debate on a subject that has affected one of my constituents, Mr Derek Jones. Forgive me if I am jumping the gun by raising this issue. My constituent, Mr Jesse Jones, committed suicide, and someone who wrote to Mr Derek Jones after reading an article in The Mail on Sunday related another case. In both cases, the deceased were referred for psychiatric treatment after stopping the drug, but because suicide occurred after they stopped taking the drug, no warning was given to the right officials.

[Sir Nick Harvey]

My hon. Friend makes an important point. The point when people are at the greatest risk can be as long as six months after taking the drug. In the case of John Medland, the impact was swift and profound, but in other cases, it has occurred some time later.

[Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con)]

Is it possible, therefore, that there is a link? If the drug is a toxic chemotherapy agent, it may well have a permanent effect on the brain. Consequently, after the person stops taking the drug, it can affect their personality. Could that be the reason?

[Sir Nick Harvey]

My hon. Friend tempts me beyond my limited medical expertise, but the logic of what he is describing sounds convincing. The other point to be made about the delay in some cases is that the numbers on the incidence of suicide and psychotic disorder that I quoted a few minutes ago are highly likely to be gross underestimates. For example, just this morning, I had a telephone call from someone in Cornwall who had heard a morning bulletin on his local BBC radio station referring to this debate. He said that for the first time, the penny dropped with him. He had attempted suicide and been forced out of the Royal Navy, but he had never before put the two things together. With the benefit of many years’ hindsight, he realised that it happened just months after he had used Roaccutane to deal with acne. I therefore think that it is fair to say that we are looking at numbers far greater than we first thought.

[Caroline Nokes (Romsey and Southampton North) (Con)]

I congratulate my hon. Friend on this important debate. Given that he has said that the number of people affected may have been grossly underestimated, does he agree that what is desperately needed is robust scientific investigation and analysis of the numbers and possible causes, especially as many of the studies are not very up to date?

[Sir Nick Harvey]

I entirely agree that a great deal more research is needed. My point in raising the matter with Government through my hon. Friend the Minister is that I cannot see who other than a public authority could initiate or, indeed, fund such research. It is certainly not in the manufacturer’s interest; Roche clings to the notion that millions of people have been treated with the drug without side effects or mishap. That may be perfectly true, but it does not alter the fact that, for those who have suffered a serious side effect, the impact has been devastating. I ask again: where is the precautionary principle?

[Mike Thornton (Eastleigh) (LD)]

What is Roche’s answer to the fact that the drug is more or less banned in the United States—one must sign a separate declaration—and that it is banned in other countries? If the drug is totally safe, why do other countries not consider it so?

[Sir Nick Harvey]

What has happened in the United States is interesting. As we know, the United States has a much more litigious culture than we do in the UK, and the manufacturer there has paid out to a patient on quite a large scale. That patient suffered different side effects, but the manufacturer nevertheless had to pay out. That, combined with the fact that generic versions of the drug are now available on the US market, has caused the manufacturer to withdraw altogether from the US market.

While we are discussing the attitude of Roche, it is worth noting that the information in the drug’s packaging includes explicit warnings about the possible psychological side effects, including incidences of suicide. If Roche acknowledges that to the extent of being willing to put it on the information, it seems to be recognising that for all the millions who may have used it successfully, a cohort of the population has nevertheless suffered as a result of using the drug.

The logical continuum of that is the ultimate withdrawal of the drug altogether. Rationally, I do not think that we can ask the Government to move straight to that in one go, much as I would like them to. Were they to attempt to go down that path, in no time at all they would find themselves locked in some sort of litigation with Roche, which would certainly not stand by and watch a major market like the UK ban its product. The court would expect the Government to demonstrate overwhelming scientific evidence, which I do not believe is available as yet. That is why, as a first step, I am calling for such scientific research to take place.

[Caroline Nokes]

On my hon. Friend’s point about calling for the drug to be withdrawn, does he agree with the dermatologist in my constituency who sent me an e-mail today saying that it would be a sad day for many thousands of acne sufferers if the drug were withdrawn completely? We desperately need this debate and the future to hinge on accurate scientific information.

[Sir Nick Harvey]

I am not entirely sure that I agree. Other treatments for acne are available. I readily acknowledge that they may not be as effective, but they include antibiotics and a variety of other treatments. Unless and until we have some way to predict which people are most likely to suffer catastrophic side effects, I would prefer on the precautionary principle that no one at all took the drug. If we could predict with some certainty—whether by means of genetics or whatever—who might be predisposed to such side effects, then and only then might it be safe to argue that anyone without such a predisposition could safely use the drug, but we are nowhere near that yet. I suffered from acne and was prescribed antibiotics for 11 years or so to deal with it. It is a miserable business—no one would make any bones about that—but there are other treatments, and the catastrophic consequences for some people of using the drug suggest that we would be better off without it.

[Richard Drax]

On that point, Robyn Cole, who is not my constituent, wrote a moving letter to Mr Jones saying that the best cure that she had for acne was sunshine, and if only she had been told that initially. On the dysfunctions caused by the drugs, Mr Jones wrote in an e-mail to me:

“Sexual dysfunction is not included in the patient information notes; Roche said that they were not aware of this side effect. But as one sufferer told me, if they put ‘sexual dysfunction’ in the leaflet, no one would take it.”

His son was severely affected, and Robyn Cole also tells me that she is still physically affected some years on, having given up the drug.

--- Later in debate ---

[Sir Nick Harvey]

My hon. Friend makes an interesting point, and I am sure that he is absolutely right in his belief that if it were mentioned in the warning notes, the use of the drug would undoubtedly be greatly reduced, as we would want in the interim.

Let us look at the available scientific and anecdotal evidence that establishes a link between the drug and the effects that I have described. Roaccutane is a vitamin A-related compound that has long been known to cause psychiatric side effects. Reports of users experiencing depression have continually surfaced, so much so that in the USA the Food and Drug Administration forced Roche to produce safety warnings about Roaccutane as long ago as 1998. The following year, an Irish study found that users of the drug were 900 times more likely to suffer from depressive symptoms than patients being treated for acne with antibiotics.

Although many studies since that time have provided limited evidence, they have often been too small to be viewed as conclusive. However, I want to mention two that stand out. First, in 2005, Dr Doug Bremner from Atlanta university published a study using brain imaging before and after four months of treatment with Roaccutane. The images clearly showed an impact on brain function, associating the drug with a decrease in function of the frontal lobe—a part of the brain that regulates emotion. Secondly, Dr Sarah Bailey from Bath university undertook studies on young adult mice and rats. When the animals were put through a “forced swim” test, where they were placed in water, those on Roaccutane spent longer being immobile, without attempting to escape, than those on antibiotics—a change in behaviour consistent with depression-related behaviour in the animals. Of course, humans and mice are very different and therefore much more research is necessary. However, at the very least Dr Bailey’s findings should be seen as a caution to doctors prescribing the drug.

These studies simply are not enough. It is evident that not everyone who takes Roaccutane develops depression, but there is clearly a vulnerable population of patients who do. Investigations just have not gone far enough to find out why that group is vulnerable, but such research is vital. Surely, before we lose more young lives to the psychological impact of the drug, there is a clear case for further study on a larger scale.

Roche consistently says that it does not know the mechanism by which the drug actually works. Therefore, one might conclude that it is none the wiser about, or perhaps is not interested in, how these side effects work. However, one cannot ignore the fact that isotretinoin—I cannot pronounce it properly—is the only drug not designed to affect mental state that features in the USA’s top 10 list of drugs associated with depression. In response to the idea of a link between Roaccutane and depression, many people have suggested that the victims were already depressed because of their acne. While acne may indeed reduce self-esteem—many acne sufferers will know what I mean by that—it is an exaggeration to generally describe people who suffer from acne as being in the grip of depression.

[Mike Thornton]

That description just sounds ridiculous. Surely, if this drug is effective at curing acne, if someone took it and their acne was cured, they would not be depressed by having acne because their acne would have gone. There is no way acne could be described as being the cause of the depression.

--- Later in debate ---

[Sir Nick Harvey]

My hon. Friend undoubtedly raises a logical loop, but there is the question of time scales, because even a very brief usage of the drug could have—as other hon. Members have suggested—quite a lasting impact. I simply do not accept that the horribly sudden onset of mood swings, paranoia and episodes of psychosis can be remotely compared with any feelings of lowered self-esteem that might be experienced by people because they suffer from acne.

Jon Medland, my constituent, had no history of depression. Similarly, the heartbreaking suicide note of James Sillcock, who died last year, told how he had “loved” his life, but it also said that Roaccutane had “changed his world completely”. Worryingly, a European Medicines Agency report in 2003 confirmed that discontinuing the drug may not be enough to alleviate adverse reactions. That was certainly true in a number of suicide cases, where young people realised they were “not themselves” and stopped the course of treatment, only to find themselves falling deeper and deeper into depression afterwards, which comes back to the point I was making earlier.

At the very least, this issue highlights the need for a greater awareness at all levels of the patient’s interaction with doctors; direct approaches must be made to monitor the patient’s mental state. Ultimately, we may never know how many people have been affected. Roaccutane was linked to nine suicide cases between September 2010 and September 2011, but with suicide such a sensitive topic, we can imagine that some victims’ families have not come forward. Indeed, others may not have realised the full picture—that the container of insignificant-looking pills, kept in the bathroom, for a few spots could have led someone to take their life in a state of psychosis.

It is also worth mentioning again that Roche has pulled Roaccutane from the US market. The drug first came on to the market for chemotherapy and then was marketed to a wider audience when its acne-curing properties became apparent. A number of doctors have been keen to argue that it is being overprescribed as a first-line treatment; it is only supposed to be used after at least two other medicines have been tried. In 2009, Dr Tony Chu said:

“You know with Roaccutane you can get patients off your books in six months rather than go through the mill and try them on a variety of things until you hit on the thing that will actually work for them...it’s bad medicine.”

If doctors are doling out Roaccutane with little thought about the bigger picture, they are also ignoring the psychiatric risks.

[Caroline Nokes]

Will my hon. Friend give way?

[Sir Nick Harvey]

I have an eye on the clock, but I will give way briefly to my hon. Friend.

[Caroline Nokes]

Does my hon. Friend agree that Roaccutane can only be prescribed by a dermatologist, so the vast majority of patients would have gone through products prescribed by their GP before they ever get to a dermatologist and have the possibility of having Roaccutane prescribed?

--- Later in debate ---

[Sir Nick Harvey]

Indeed, Mr Streeter.

What my hon. Friend says should be the case, but there seems to be some evidence from some medics that Roaccutaine is being used rather too quickly.

Young people full of potential and leading happy lives have been crippled by their use of this drug. On the face of it, perhaps the proportion of users of the drug who become victims does not appear to necessitate any action being taken, but if we look at the actual numbers involved and reflect that these cases are real, we must ask what has become of the precautionary principle.

In the absence of a consensus that a link exists, the burden of proof should fall upon the manufacturers and drug agencies to prove that there is no link, given the scale of the anecdotal evidence and the picture that is building up. We need a thorough, well-funded and sizeable study into the link between Roaccutane and the adverse effects that I have described. There is a clear need for stricter guidelines to medical professionals when prescribing the drug. The Department of Health should be clear about the risks and ensure that that advice permeates through every level of the NHS. Young lives are at stake and we can no longer afford inaction.

--- Later in debate ---

[Norman Lamb]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for her intervention. I am sure that that is the usual practice. However, the concern expressed by my hon. Friend the Member for Beckenham (Bob Stewart) suggests that that may not uniformly be so, though it certainly ought to be.

Since 1998, there has been increasing awareness that Roaccutane may be associated with psychiatric adverse reactions, particularly depression and suicidal behaviour. The assessment of this issue has been complicated by the fact that young people with acne are already at an increased risk of depression, regardless of treatment. All psychiatric adverse reactions were assessed by the working group on isotretinoin in 2005. This working group of the Committee on Safety of Medicines consisted of independent experts, including psychiatrists and dermatologists, who considered the available data from published literature and case reports. All new information on psychiatric adverse reactions has remained under close and regular review since that time.

The product information for Roaccutane, and the other generic alternatives, states that particular care needs to be taken where patients have a history of depression, and that all patients should be monitored for signs of depression and referred for appropriate treatment if necessary. It also states that stopping taking Roaccutane may not lead—as hon. Members have mentioned—to improvement, and therefore further psychiatric or psychological evaluation may be necessary and appropriate.

As it is associated with rare, serious side effects, Roaccutane can only be prescribed by, or under the supervision of, a consultant dermatologist. The British Association of Dermatologists has published guidelines for its members on when to prescribe Roaccutane and how best to monitor patients for adverse effects during treatment. The guidelines recommend that patients be asked about any previous psychiatric illness, and the patient and their family should be made aware that the medicine may affect their mood. Patients should be asked about psychological symptoms at every clinic visit.

I appreciate that, in the case of the constituents of my hon. Friend the Member for North Devon, there appeared to be a rapid deterioration of mental health—certainly, a deterioration that immediately followed the start of taking Roaccutane. Female patients will be asked about such symptoms every four weeks because of the need to rule out pregnancy before a new prescription is issued. The Medicines and Healthcare products Regulatory Agency keeps this issue under close review. Any new information is carefully assessed to see whether there is a need to take action to alert health care professionals and patients.

This debate has provided an important opportunity to update the House on developments relating to the prescribing of Roaccutane, which was last debated about 10 years ago in this place. As with any effective medicine, difficult issues of risk and benefit must be grappled with. Few hon. Members will not have known someone who has suffered, physically or mentally, with the scars of acne—severe and acute acne can be a disabling condition—and few would doubt the serious nature of the potential side effects of this powerful medicine, and their tragic potential consequences. In the short time available, I hope that I have been able to update the House on the measures in place to ensure safe prescribing of Roaccutane.

[Sir Nick Harvey]

I sense that my hon. Friend is reaching his peroration. He has offered us reassurance that the drug is used only under the auspices of specialist doctors and, apparently, only in severe cases, although my constituent’s was a mild case. Is he minded to take any further action at all, because as yet he has not suggested anything?

[Norman Lamb]

I am grateful for that intervention. I was going to suggest, at the end of my speech, that I am happy to talk to my hon. Friend and his constituent, if he wants that, because this concern cannot be dismissed in a half-hour debate. I am happy to look further at his concerns, because they could not be more serious. I recognise that other hon. Members are interested as well, and I am happy to meet others, if that would be of some use. I understand the seriousness of the issue that my hon. Friend raises.

Question put and agreed to.

Hepatitis C (Haemophiliacs)

Nick Harvey Excerpts

Tuesday 29th October 2013 Westminster Hall

[Sir Nick Harvey (North Devon) (LD)]

It is good, Mr Dobbin, to have the opportunity to contribute to this debate, and I applaud the right hon. Member for Wythenshawe and Sale East (Paul Goggins) for initiating it. It is also good to see the breadth of support from across the Chamber.

I represent my constituent, Sue Threakall, who has campaigned for many years with the Tainted Blood campaign and is currently the chair of that campaign. It has taken an awfully long time to get even as far as we have today. I very much support the comments that other Members have made about how unsatisfactory the situation is, even now.

I commend the right hon. Gentleman on a powerful but well measured and well judged speech. Health Ministers in Governments of each colour have, on many occasions, acknowledged that haemophiliacs are an exceptional and specific group of people affected by the contaminated blood scandal and that they merit special treatment in light of their tragic circumstances. As we know, with the passing of the years, those tragic circumstances mean that such sufferers are becoming fewer and fewer in number, and they deserve justice following a 30-year campaign, which has yet to achieve a full acknowledgement —let alone an apology—from the Government for what happened.

Today’s debate focuses on the haemophiliacs who were infected with hepatitis C—indeed, all but a tiny number of haemophiliacs receiving those blood products were infected with the virus. However, few, if any, haemophiliacs escaped with a single infection; most were exposed multiple times to multiple genotypes of hepatitis viruses, along with many other types of pathogens—hepatitis A, G, D and B for example. Many are super-infected.

It has been proved that infection with both HIV and hepatitis C exacerbates the progression of each virus. It is time now to look at the wider pictures. Haemophiliacs, many of whom have been infected by multiple viruses, desperately need additional support and proper needs assessments. As a community, they were, over time, knowingly exposed to such viruses, despite the growing warnings.

When we look back at what happened, it is worth remembering that the first warnings were given to the Department of Health in 1958 and yet, as late as 1984, we were still importing blood from America that we knew had been collected in American prisons. Even another five years after that, we were still importing blood supplies about which we knew very little. It is incredible that all these years later, in 2013, we are still having debates in Westminster Hall to try to bring about justice for this group of patients who were scandalously let down by our national health service.

The right hon. Member for Wythenshawe and Sale East made a good point in saying that there has been clear resistance for a long time to having a full-blown public inquiry. He also made good points about the opportunity to go about having one in a slightly different way, with an inquiry of some sort being given full access to all the relevant facts. Such an inquiry would stand a very good chance of getting to the truth of why the warnings were ignored for all this time.

[Grahame M. Morris]

The hon. Gentleman is making some very important points, many of which I agree with. However, I seek his views on the privatisation of Plasma Resources UK, the UK’s plasma laboratory service. One of the reasons why that was acquired by the last Government was to ensure safe supplies of, among other things, factor 8. Does he think that there is a risk involved in that privatisation, particularly in light of the evidence of what has happened—tragically—to haemophiliacs?

[Sir Nick Harvey]

The hon. Gentleman makes an interesting point, and there will be anxiety on that front in many quarters. We have to hope desperately that what he is suggesting does not come to pass, because we are going to have to learn the lessons of the past. It is essential that we have proper controls over this sector for the future.

A number of hon. Members have referred to the means by which support is given to the sufferers and their families, and some good points have been made about the two-stage process effectively being a two-tier system. There were also some very sensible suggestions about Atos and the all-work test, because the fact of the matter is that the current system of financial support is patchy and insufficient. The Government need to revisit the issue urgently.

The challenge is partly for the new Health Minister, my hon. Friend the Member for Battersea (Jane Ellison), whom I welcome to her post, but it is also a matter for the Department for Work and Pensions. It must recognise the unique circumstances of this community as a whole and come up with a comprehensive settlement once and for all, so that the victims, the widows and the families affected by the tragedy can get on with the rest of their lives.

I agree very much with those who have paid tribute to the current Prime Minister for having been willing to go into events of the past. He has not always been universally praised for doing so, but he has gone and tangled with some tricky issues from the past. This is another such case and he would be well advised to do the same with it. We have to learn lessons from these tragic events, put things right now and ensure that nothing similar can happen again.

[Jim Dobbin (in the Chair)]

We have two speakers left and approximately 15 minutes for them both.

Oral Answers to Questions

Nick Harvey Excerpts

Tuesday 15th January 2013 Commons Chamber

[Dr Poulter]

The hon. Lady is right to raise concerns about specific groups. The direction of travel in reducing readmission rates has to be the right thing; far too many patients were bouncing back to hospital when they would have been better looked after in the community. The longer term answer for some conditions, such as heart disease and possibly sickle cell and thalassaemia, may be year-of-care tariffs, which we are looking at very closely, as is the NHS Commissioning Board.

[Sir Nick Harvey (North Devon) (LD)]

The Secretary of State just referred to the new strategic clinical networks. As the cancer networks are merged with them, what safeguards are there to stem the loss of expertise in cancer and what specialist support will be available to CCGs trying to achieve the targets we have heard about?

Regional Pay (NHS)

Nick Harvey Excerpts

Wednesday 7th November 2012 Commons Chamber

[Sir Nick Harvey (North Devon) (LD)]

My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State was right to make the point that the legal right and freedom of manoeuvre that enables the south-west trusts to do what they are doing is derived from legislation that was passed by the previous Government. In my view, however, he was wrong to depict what they are doing merely as offering premiums to assist with recruitment and retention. If that is all they were doing, frankly, we would not have spent this afternoon discussing the issue, and our postbags would not be filled with hundreds of letters from concerned constituents.

My hon. Friend the Member for Kingswood (Chris Skidmore) suggested that the whole thing had been scaremongered up by the unions and the Opposition, but I do not believe that is fair. If we look at the letters from trusts who are members of the consortium to hon. Members who have expressed concerns, they spell out that, far from offering a premium to “Agenda for Change”, they want to alter the terms in “Agenda for Change”, revisit sick pay rates and holiday pay rates, the amount of holiday entitlement, and the bonus for working unsociable hours. Understandably, that fills the work force with horror, and we should rightly oppose it. If we look at the leaked document from the consortium in its early days, we see that it knew it would run into a political and publicity storm. If it can get away with this, it will want to come back to the issue of regional pay.

My hon. and learned Friend—and neighbour—the Member for Torridge and West Devon (Mr Cox) seemed to be under the impression that all this was happening because no national negotiations were taking place. That is simply incorrect: national negotiations are taking place, and I have talked to representatives of the trade unions that are part of the process. It is clear to me that they are showing flexibility, that they understand that there must be some change, and that they are willing to explore the possibility of change in some of the arrangements.

I appeal again to the trusts that make up the south-west consortium to await the conclusion of an orderly process that is perfectly capable of addressing some of their concerns. The alternative is seeing regional pay coming in by the back door and the breaking up of the national framework of our national health service.

My constituency is very similar to Torridge and West Devon. It has very low wages, some of the lowest in the country, but very high house prices. We will not continue to attract health professionals to our hospital—and we are already finding it difficult—if they know that coming to work in north Devon will mean worse conditions than they experience elsewhere. We will struggle to retain some of our best people if they know that going elsewhere will enable them to enjoy better pay and conditions and lower housing costs.

When the report from the pay review body is in the public domain, we must debate it again, but the message must go to my colleagues in Departments throughout Whitehall that there is no majority support for regional pay in the House, and that the idea must be given a decent burial.