Draft South Yorkshire Mayoral Combined Authority (Election of Mayor and Transfer of Police and Crime Commissioner Functions) Order 2024

Nick Fletcher Excerpts

Wednesday 6th March 2024 General Committees

[Chris Philp]

I thank my hon. Friend for his intervention but, as he will know, when a Government Department or other public body conducts a consultation, that is not done as a sort of referendum in which the responses are added up and the view with the biggest percentage of responses prevails.

First, it is worth saying that 3,000 responses is a small proportion of the population of South Yorkshire; it is a tiny fraction of 1%. But as I say, when a consultation is conducted—not just in this context, but in any across Government—it is not a case of adding up the results and whoever gets the most responses winning, as it were. The responses are considered substantively on their merits. The point is the quality of the argument, not simply the number. I am not saying that the number is disregarded, but it is not determinative. It is not a referendum, obviously.

[Nick Fletcher (Don Valley) (Con)]

I have just looked at the consultation principles laid out in 2018, which say:

“Do not consult for the sake of it.”

If we do not take account of a majority of 65%, we are just consulting for the sake of it.

The Minister has just replied by saying that a consultation is about what the responses are and not just a numbers game, but many people expressed concerns about the breadth of the Mayor’s existing portfolio and whether one individual could devote the necessary time to it. A proportion of people felt that the transfer could divert resources away from policing and towards non-policing activities within the combined authority, and a significant number of respondents referred to the closure of Doncaster Sheffield airport. Additionally, some respondents expressed concerns that the Mayor devotes considerable time and interest to matters that primarily impact Sheffield.

[The Chair]

Order. The hon. Member is asking the Minister a question rather than making a statement, so can he bring his comments to a close, please?

[Nick Fletcher]

Thank you, Mr Dowd. The Mayor in Sheffield has a huge number of responsibilities at the moment, and, as far as many people who responded are concerned, he is not fulfilling those duties to the benefit of Sheffield. Adding even more responsibilities at this moment will be the wrong thing to do.

[Chris Philp]

I thank my hon. Friend for his intervention. I know that he is a steadfast champion for his constituents, always speaks his mind and says what he thinks is right for his neighbourhood, exactly as he should. I have every respect for him for doing so in such clear and forthright terms.

I will try to address the two points that my hon. Friend raised. First, the consultation was not done just for the sake of it; it was done, as all consultations are, to genuinely test the arguments. However, it is not the case that any Government Department—the Home Office or any other—is simply bound to take the majority response by number. It is about the quality of the arguments. That applies across all Departments. It is not a referendum.

On the number of responses, which was 3,000, I had the opportunity to look up the population of South Yorkshire while my hon. Friend was speaking. According to Wikipedia, to the extent that that can be considered reliable—I am sure my colleagues will correct me if this is wrong—the population is 1.4 million. Does that sound about right?

[Nick Fletcher]

Sounds about right.

[Chris Philp]

Three-thousand responses out of 1.4 million is 0.2%. I do not think it is possible to say that that is a representative sample; but even if it was, a consultation is not a referendum and we look at the substance of the arguments.

My hon. Friend’s second point was that the Mayor has a lot of responsibilities. Obviously, my colleagues are sceptical about whether the Mayor is doing a particularly good job in other areas; transport has been mentioned. As with any elected office—a Member of Parliament, a local council leader, a PCC on a stand-alone basis or a Mayor—it all comes down to the individual. Some Mayors are effective and others are not. I am sure we all agree that Andy Street and Ben Houchen do a fantastic—[Interruption.] Is the shadow Minister rolling his eyes? They do a fantastic job as directly elected Mayors. I am an MP in London where, unfortunately, Sadiq Khan does not, but that is about the individual, not the structure of the office. Our view is that structurally combining the powers—it is not about the individual—allows them to be exercised more effectively because the Mayor exercising them has access to multiple levers. Should the right person be elected, they will be more effective.

My hon. Friends the Members for Rother Valley (Alexander Stafford) and for Don Valley (Nick Fletcher) have serious concerns about the incumbent Mayor, but the source of redress is the ballot box. That is why I was out in the rain in Croydon on Saturday delivering leaflets and exposing Sadiq Khan’s appalling record.

--- Later in debate ---

[Nick Fletcher]

I want to reiterate exactly what my hon. Friends the Members for Penistone and Stocksbridge and for Rother Valley (Alexander Stafford) have said. I note for the record that all MPs are welcome to join these meetings, yet there are only three here from South Yorkshire. That says something about the other Members of Parliament from South Yorkshire, who have taken the vote for granted for so long. That is why we live in what many people call the socialist state of South Yorkshire. That is why it is so dangerous to hand these powers over; we are pretty much handing them over to a dictatorship. The hon. Member for Birmingham, Perry Barr said that we should not make this political, but these are political positions, and this is what it is for. People need to know and to look back at what has happened since we became a combined authority. One of the biggest problems that we have had is that money has been wasted hand over fist, and we have lost our airport. That has caused huge economic damage to South Yorkshire for the last two years, and it will continue to do so until that airport is open.

This is important because we are going to be handing over further, really important powers on police and crime commissioning. We all know the place that we are in at the moment, and the police need real backing behind this. Unfortunately, with the leadership that the current Mayor is showing at this moment in time, we have not got that. It is extremely dangerous to hand these powers over without really thinking about that. Like my hon. Friend the Member for Rother Valley, I urge all Members to vote against this. This is not the right time for this to happen.

[Alexander Stafford]

Does my hon. Friend and the Committee realise that the current Mayor has responsibility for business growth and recovery; education, skills and employment; transport and active travel; housing, infrastructure and net zero; and health, as the chair of the integrated care partnership? Does my hon. Friend believe that giving even more powers to that very extensive brief will serve the people of South Yorkshire? I do not believe that it will.

[Nick Fletcher]

I completely agree with my hon. Friend. Doncaster, Barnsley and Rotherham will all be left behind. We have seen the way in which moneys have been given to the Mayor—it is literally hundreds of millions of pounds, running into billions of pounds. That is not being divided up equally between the four councils. Unfortunately, because all the council leaders are Labour, no one is actually challenging it. We continually see videos of what is actually happening at those council meetings, and the Doncaster Mayor never sits up and actually challenges any decision that is made. The scrutiny panels are extremely small and they are again filled with people from his own party. Unfortunately, if we continue on this trajectory, South Yorkshire is going to be left behind. Other combined authorities, where we have Conservative members and Mayors, continue to move forward.

[Mrs Elphicke]

I have to say, my Yorkshire colleagues are making a very compelling case for their concerns. Would my hon. Friend expand on how the structure should be changed to sort out the functions going forward?

[Nick Fletcher]

At this moment in time, considering the place that South Yorkshire is in, if we are going to have PCCs and Mayors, which is not serving South Yorkshire well, both of those positions should continue to be elected separately, rather than giving all the power to a Mayor who can then appoint somebody who, as my hon. Friend the Member for Rother Valley has said, will not be elected. The measure gives too much power to an individual whose record so far has been appalling for South Yorkshire. As I have said, I urge all Members to vote against this, because it is not the right thing to do. Once again, we have three Members of Parliament here who have given up the time of day to attend, as opposed to those Opposition Members who have failed to turn up, and we need to ensure that our voice is heard.

[Keir Mather]

We have heard a lot from Government Members about democratic accountability, even the risk of dictatorship, and how nobody wants this and the will of the people needs to be respected. This provision was in the manifesto for the current South Yorkshire Mayor who, I remind Government Members, received 71% of the vote in his mayoral election. Does that not equal democratic accountability?

[Nick Fletcher]

This is why we are living in a dictatorship. I need to take this moment to encourage all the people in South Yorkshire, if this goes forward today—[Interruption.]

[The Chair]

Order. I completely understand how passionately Members feel, but can we get the febrile tone down a little bit?

[Nick Fletcher]

Thank you, Mr Dowd. I feel extremely passionately, because the people of Doncaster, Rotherham, Barnsley and Sheffield have suffered long enough. The people need to know that they can actually bring about change. If this goes forward, the Conservative candidate who has just been put up today, Nick Allen, is definitely where that vote needs to go.

[Sir Robert Goodwill (Scarborough and Whitby) (Con)]

Does my hon. Friend think that his constituents in South Yorkshire might want to have a close look at what is happening in Tees Valley, an area that was once totally dominated by Labour, but where Ben Houchen is now delivering for the people there? He got a similar level of support in his election, and has saved the airport at Tees Valley.

[Nick Fletcher]

I thank my right hon. Friend for his intervention. That is the same message that I have been giving out for the last 19 months. The Conservative Mayor in Teesside, Ben Houchen, used the gainshare powers, which the Mayor of Sheffield unfortunately said he could not use—but now, all of a sudden, he can use them. Ben Houchen bought the airport with half the gainshare money available to our Mayor, and is making a real success of it.

[Alexander Stafford]

My hon. Friend once again mentions the key point, which is that the Mayor of South Yorkshire keeps saying he cannot do something, and then suddenly it turns out that he can. My hon. Friend mentioned Doncaster Sheffield Airport—suddenly our Mayor can save it, when he had claimed he could not. The same thing happened for my bus routes in Rother Valley. The Mayor said he could not change the bus routes or make things work, and suddenly he has changed them a little bit. The Mayor clearly does not understand what powers he already has. If we give him even more powers, what faith can we have that he will exercise them responsibly for the people of South Yorkshire?

--- Later in debate ---

[Nick Fletcher]

I could not agree more. I just want to reference something that was said about working together to move forward. I have to mention one more time that not one single Labour South Yorkshire Member of Parliament has turned up to this debate. With the way the combined authorities are being put out at this time, there is a huge amount of power, money and responsibility there, and I would have thought that Labour Members would have at least been able to turn up to this Committee.

I think we have all said enough, and I know that colleagues obviously have busy days as well. However, I encourage everybody to vote against this order, because it is the wrong thing for South Yorkshire.

--- Later in debate ---

[Chris Philp]

That brings me to the matter of accountability and blaming the Government, which I was going to mention. When a Mayor exercises police and crime commissioner powers, as Sadiq Khan does in London, they set the element of the precept that funds the police in the same way as a police and crime commissioner. That is a decision for the Mayor when they exercise PCC powers, in the same way that Sadiq Khan—I use that example because I am a London MP—sets the police precept in London. In Kent, of course, it will be Matthew Scott, my hon. Friend’s police and crime commissioner. If this change is agreed, the Mayor of South Yorkshire would set the police precept in South Yorkshire, the money raised from which would be strictly and legally ringfenced to be spent on policing purposes.

Mayors are entitled to appoint a deputy Mayor for policing—Sadiq Khan does that in London—but the Mayor is still ultimately responsible. For example, the Mayor personally sets the precept and exercises the power to hire and fire the chief constable. The Mayor personally exercises a number of powers, and they can appoint a deputy Mayor for policing, as Sadiq Khan has in London—he has appointed Sophie Linden. However, the Mayor ultimately takes the key decisions. The Mayor is accountable at the ballot box, and ultimately the people—the public—can kick out the Mayor if they think they are doing a bad job.

Some slightly contradictory arguments have been advanced about election turnouts. On the one hand, it has been said that the 19% turnout for the PCC election and the 24% turnout for the mayoral election were low. On the other hand, the Committee is being invited to give significant weight to 0.2% in the consultation. Obviously it is internally contradictory to say that 0.2% is significant but 24% is not significant.

[Nick Fletcher]

Can the Minister tell me how widely advertised the consultation was? Unfortunately, I genuinely do not believe that it was. As a Member of Parliament, I put a lot of effort into letting people know. Everybody knows that there will be an election in May, because the country and the Government will be putting it out there, so it is slightly unfair to compare those two.

[Chris Philp]

My hon. Friend has made his point.

In a sense, the fact that the turnout in the PCC election was lower than the turnout in the mayoral election by five percentage points suggests that combining the two would give the person who exercises those powers the highest possible profile and real authority over these issues, such as transport, housing and policing in London. Indeed, that is why it is done across the country, in London and Manchester, and why we are in the process of seeking to do it in the West Midlands. No one would dispute that, for example, the Mayor of London, the Mayor of the West Midlands or the Mayor of Greater Manchester, Andy Burnham, have a significant profile, because they exercise significant powers.

If we are concerned, as my hon. Friends are—and as I am, to some extent—that the turnout in PCC elections is not as high as we would like, then giving the person who holds those powers, in this case the Mayor, as many powers as possible would give them a higher public profile and motivate more people to turn out and vote. The turnout in the mayoral election in London is likely to be getting on for 50%, or maybe 40%—who knows exactly, but it will be quite high—because the Mayor of London exercises such significant powers, and I think that improves democratic accountability.

My last point is that Members have been very decent in not being too personal to the current incumbent of the South Yorkshire mayoralty, and I will not be either. I know that there are some concerns about the way in which that individual has done their job, and I understand that people have strong feelings about that, but we need to legislate for the right structure—a structure that makes sense—and not vote one way or the other because there is an individual who might not be doing a very good job. Where Mayors do a good job, such as Ben Houchen or Andy Street—there might also be some Labour ones, although I cannot immediately think of one; the hon. Member for Nottingham North is free to intervene and suggest one—we know that they can be really effective.

As parliamentarians, we have to legislate for the right structures—ones that are right in perpetuity, regardless of the individual—and trust the electorate to make the right choice. It is our view, and my view, that this is the right structure. Consolidating the role, so that the Mayor can exercise a wide range of powers and co-ordinate with partners, is the right structure. That is why we have done it in London and Greater Manchester, and why we are in the process of doing it in the West Midlands, which covers Birmingham as well. Obviously the four local authorities, the current PCC and the current Mayor agree with this. Taking a sober step back, I just think that this structure is one that works, regardless of some of the problems that might exist with the current personality.