Draft South Yorkshire Mayoral Combined Authority (Election of Mayor and Transfer of Police and Crime Commissioner Functions) Order 2024
(Limited Text - Ministerial Extracts only)
Read Full debate
The Minister for Crime, Policing and Fire (Chris Philp)
I beg to move,
That the Committee has considered the draft South Yorkshire Mayoral Combined Authority (Election of Mayor and Transfer of Police and Crime Commissioner Functions) Order 2024.
As always, Mr Dowd, it is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship. The draft order was laid before the House on 7 February. If approved, it will transfer the police and crime commissioner functions from the South Yorkshire police and crime commissioner to the Mayor of South Yorkshire. It will also bring forward the next scheduled mayoral election in South Yorkshire from 2026 to 2024, with elections then taking place every four years thereafter, so that the South Yorkshire mayoral election cycle is aligned to the existing PCC election cycle across the rest of the country.
I am grateful to incumbent Mayor, Oliver Coppard, for providing his consent to the transfer and to the amendment of his current mayoral electoral term to enable alignment. The PCC for South Yorkshire will continue to exercise the functions until the end of his elected term of office in a few weeks’ time. From the point of taking office on 7 May this year, following the mayoral election, the Mayor will then act as the single directly elected individual responsible for exercising PCC powers, which include the duty to hold the chief constable and police force to account. Of course, the Mayor will be accountable to the people of South Yorkshire through the ballot box.
The functions of the PCC will include, as they do elsewhere, the issuing of a police and crime plan; the setting of the police budget, including the PCC council tax precept; the appointment and, if necessary, suspension or dismissal of the chief constable; and the addressing of complaints about policing services that are non-criminal in nature.
Keir Mather (Selby and Ainsty) (Lab)
Will the Minister speak a bit more about the role that a Mayor with the new powers will be able to play in co-ordinating between police forces in the region? In the village of Kirk Smeaton in my constituency, offences can happen on either side of the border between North Yorkshire and South Yorkshire, and police forces will often not answer calls if the incident is in the wrong field, making for a bit of a ridiculous situation. Does the Minister think that a Mayor with the new powers will better be able to address such cross-border issues?
Chris Philp
Operationally, cross-border co-ordination is a matter for the chief constable, but ensuring join-up is something that a Mayor exercising PCC powers could and should do, so I agree with the hon. Gentleman’s point.
More widely than that, because a Mayor exercises quite a wide range of powers—although that depends on the exact mayoralty—they are typically better able to co-ordinate with other bits of the public sector in their area than a regular police and crime commissioner can. We discussed that just a few days ago, perhaps even in this very room, in relation to the West Midlands, and the Mayors in London, Greater Manchester and elsewhere already exercise PCC powers. Because the Mayor tends to have a higher profile, typically has a bigger budget and can reach into other bits of the public sector, they are able to deal with issues such as reoffending and better co-ordinate with local authorities than a PCC acting alone.
As I was saying, as well as the things that I listed before that intervention, the PCC also commissions services for victims and vulnerable people and does partnership working across the whole criminal justice system in the way that I described. There is, then, a general direction of travel not just in South Yorkshire but throughout the country to try, where the boundaries are coterminous and where directly elected Mayors exist, to have the directly elected Mayor also exercise PCC powers. That already happens in a number of large cities.
Part 1 of the Government’s review of the role of PCCs cemented the Government’s view that, as I just set out, bringing public safety functions together under the leadership of a directly elected combined authority Mayor brings together levers in one set of hands and enables a joined-up approach to the prevention of crime. The levelling-up White Paper published a couple of years ago set out the Government’s aspiration to have combined authority Mayors taking on that PCC role where feasible, as I just set out.
As required by section 113 of the Local Democracy, Economic Development and Construction Act 2009, the Home Secretary launched a public consultation on the proposed South Yorkshire police and crime function transfers, which ran for six weeks from 20 December 2023 until 31 January. It is worth saying that, prior to that, I think the consent to this transfer was obtained from the potentially outgoing police and crime commissioner, the directly elected Mayor and all of the local authorities in the area concerned, but we also consulted the public, as we were legally obliged to do. Some 3,000 responses were received, and they were carefully considered prior to the decision on whether to lay this order.
Alexander Stafford (Rother Valley) (Con)
The Minister says that the responses were carefully considered. If so, they were carefully considered and ignored—65% of respondents did not want this to happen. What is the point of the consultation, given that the overwhelming majority of people in South Yorkshire do not want this, yet the Minister is ignoring them? How is that democracy? What was the point of the public consultation? It was a vast waste of money if we are just going to ignore the residents.
Chris Philp
I thank my hon. Friend for his intervention but, as he will know, when a Government Department or other public body conducts a consultation, that is not done as a sort of referendum in which the responses are added up and the view with the biggest percentage of responses prevails.
First, it is worth saying that 3,000 responses is a small proportion of the population of South Yorkshire; it is a tiny fraction of 1%. But as I say, when a consultation is conducted—not just in this context, but in any across Government—it is not a case of adding up the results and whoever gets the most responses winning, as it were. The responses are considered substantively on their merits. The point is the quality of the argument, not simply the number. I am not saying that the number is disregarded, but it is not determinative. It is not a referendum, obviously.
Nick Fletcher (Don Valley) (Con)
I have just looked at the consultation principles laid out in 2018, which say:
“Do not consult for the sake of it.”
If we do not take account of a majority of 65%, we are just consulting for the sake of it.
The Minister has just replied by saying that a consultation is about what the responses are and not just a numbers game, but many people expressed concerns about the breadth of the Mayor’s existing portfolio and whether one individual could devote the necessary time to it. A proportion of people felt that the transfer could divert resources away from policing and towards non-policing activities within the combined authority, and a significant number of respondents referred to the closure of Doncaster Sheffield airport. Additionally, some respondents expressed concerns that the Mayor devotes considerable time and interest to matters that primarily impact Sheffield.
Nick Fletcher
Thank you, Mr Dowd. The Mayor in Sheffield has a huge number of responsibilities at the moment, and, as far as many people who responded are concerned, he is not fulfilling those duties to the benefit of Sheffield. Adding even more responsibilities at this moment will be the wrong thing to do.
Chris Philp
I thank my hon. Friend for his intervention. I know that he is a steadfast champion for his constituents, always speaks his mind and says what he thinks is right for his neighbourhood, exactly as he should. I have every respect for him for doing so in such clear and forthright terms.
I will try to address the two points that my hon. Friend raised. First, the consultation was not done just for the sake of it; it was done, as all consultations are, to genuinely test the arguments. However, it is not the case that any Government Department—the Home Office or any other—is simply bound to take the majority response by number. It is about the quality of the arguments. That applies across all Departments. It is not a referendum.
On the number of responses, which was 3,000, I had the opportunity to look up the population of South Yorkshire while my hon. Friend was speaking. According to Wikipedia, to the extent that that can be considered reliable—I am sure my colleagues will correct me if this is wrong—the population is 1.4 million. Does that sound about right?
Chris Philp
Three-thousand responses out of 1.4 million is 0.2%. I do not think it is possible to say that that is a representative sample; but even if it was, a consultation is not a referendum and we look at the substance of the arguments.
My hon. Friend’s second point was that the Mayor has a lot of responsibilities. Obviously, my colleagues are sceptical about whether the Mayor is doing a particularly good job in other areas; transport has been mentioned. As with any elected office—a Member of Parliament, a local council leader, a PCC on a stand-alone basis or a Mayor—it all comes down to the individual. Some Mayors are effective and others are not. I am sure we all agree that Andy Street and Ben Houchen do a fantastic—[Interruption.] Is the shadow Minister rolling his eyes? They do a fantastic job as directly elected Mayors. I am an MP in London where, unfortunately, Sadiq Khan does not, but that is about the individual, not the structure of the office. Our view is that structurally combining the powers—it is not about the individual—allows them to be exercised more effectively because the Mayor exercising them has access to multiple levers. Should the right person be elected, they will be more effective.
My hon. Friends the Members for Rother Valley (Alexander Stafford) and for Don Valley (Nick Fletcher) have serious concerns about the incumbent Mayor, but the source of redress is the ballot box. That is why I was out in the rain in Croydon on Saturday delivering leaflets and exposing Sadiq Khan’s appalling record.
Chris Philp
If the hon. Gentleman would like to defend Sadiq Khan’s appalling record, please have a go.
Mr Mahmood
I thank the Minister for giving way. We are here to discuss a statutory instrument. Bringing politics and individuals’ names into it is beyond the call of what we are trying to do. We should stay away from party politics and deal with the sentiments of the order.
Chris Philp
I thank the hon. Gentleman for his advice. I am, as always, extremely grateful.
I have already drawn attention to the general policy direction of the Government and other mayoral authorities where PCC powers are exercised by the Mayor. I know there are strong feelings and I have every respect for my colleagues who are speaking up, but I commend the order to the Committee for the reasons that I have set out.
Chris Philp
I will be brief in my concluding remarks. I thank Members on both sides of the Committee for their contributions, and I fully understand that strong feelings are engaged. I will just make one or two points in response to the issues raised in this debate.
First, on the question of funding, I can confirm to the Committee that the police element of the budget is ringfenced. That is made clear in the order; it is a separate account. Money given to either the police and crime commissioner or the Mayor exercising those powers by the Government in the form of the block grant or raised by the police precept is ringfenced to be spent only on policing. That ringfence is legally in place.
Alexander Stafford
I hear what the Minister is saying about the ringfencing. I will quote from the consultation responses of people against this order:
“A minority felt that a transfer could divert resources away from policing and towards non-policing activities within the combined authority.”
I hear that the money is ringfenced, but we need safeguards in place so that the Mayor cannot use some of the money on something that he may define as policing, but which, to someone else, might not be related to policing, and cannot bung it towards groups, people or activities that are not actually in the best interests of South Yorkshire. What safeguards will be in place? What guarantees are there?
Chris Philp
There is a hard-edged legal requirement—the breach of which would be unlawful—to spend the Home Office block grant and the money raised by the precept only on police and crime activity. A failure to do that would be unlawful. That is just a black and white legal requirement.
Mrs Elphicke
I am somewhat concerned by some of the comments made by colleagues who are most affected. I would be grateful if the Minister explained whether the responsibilities could be delegated to another person in the way that has been described, and if he could say who, in that situation, would make the decision on an increase to the precept.
Chris Philp
That brings me to the matter of accountability and blaming the Government, which I was going to mention. When a Mayor exercises police and crime commissioner powers, as Sadiq Khan does in London, they set the element of the precept that funds the police in the same way as a police and crime commissioner. That is a decision for the Mayor when they exercise PCC powers, in the same way that Sadiq Khan—I use that example because I am a London MP—sets the police precept in London. In Kent, of course, it will be Matthew Scott, my hon. Friend’s police and crime commissioner. If this change is agreed, the Mayor of South Yorkshire would set the police precept in South Yorkshire, the money raised from which would be strictly and legally ringfenced to be spent on policing purposes.
Mayors are entitled to appoint a deputy Mayor for policing—Sadiq Khan does that in London—but the Mayor is still ultimately responsible. For example, the Mayor personally sets the precept and exercises the power to hire and fire the chief constable. The Mayor personally exercises a number of powers, and they can appoint a deputy Mayor for policing, as Sadiq Khan has in London—he has appointed Sophie Linden. However, the Mayor ultimately takes the key decisions. The Mayor is accountable at the ballot box, and ultimately the people—the public—can kick out the Mayor if they think they are doing a bad job.
Some slightly contradictory arguments have been advanced about election turnouts. On the one hand, it has been said that the 19% turnout for the PCC election and the 24% turnout for the mayoral election were low. On the other hand, the Committee is being invited to give significant weight to 0.2% in the consultation. Obviously it is internally contradictory to say that 0.2% is significant but 24% is not significant.
Nick Fletcher
Can the Minister tell me how widely advertised the consultation was? Unfortunately, I genuinely do not believe that it was. As a Member of Parliament, I put a lot of effort into letting people know. Everybody knows that there will be an election in May, because the country and the Government will be putting it out there, so it is slightly unfair to compare those two.
Chris Philp
My hon. Friend has made his point.
In a sense, the fact that the turnout in the PCC election was lower than the turnout in the mayoral election by five percentage points suggests that combining the two would give the person who exercises those powers the highest possible profile and real authority over these issues, such as transport, housing and policing in London. Indeed, that is why it is done across the country, in London and Manchester, and why we are in the process of seeking to do it in the West Midlands. No one would dispute that, for example, the Mayor of London, the Mayor of the West Midlands or the Mayor of Greater Manchester, Andy Burnham, have a significant profile, because they exercise significant powers.
If we are concerned, as my hon. Friends are—and as I am, to some extent—that the turnout in PCC elections is not as high as we would like, then giving the person who holds those powers, in this case the Mayor, as many powers as possible would give them a higher public profile and motivate more people to turn out and vote. The turnout in the mayoral election in London is likely to be getting on for 50%, or maybe 40%—who knows exactly, but it will be quite high—because the Mayor of London exercises such significant powers, and I think that improves democratic accountability.
My last point is that Members have been very decent in not being too personal to the current incumbent of the South Yorkshire mayoralty, and I will not be either. I know that there are some concerns about the way in which that individual has done their job, and I understand that people have strong feelings about that, but we need to legislate for the right structure—a structure that makes sense—and not vote one way or the other because there is an individual who might not be doing a very good job. Where Mayors do a good job, such as Ben Houchen or Andy Street—there might also be some Labour ones, although I cannot immediately think of one; the hon. Member for Nottingham North is free to intervene and suggest one—we know that they can be really effective.
As parliamentarians, we have to legislate for the right structures—ones that are right in perpetuity, regardless of the individual—and trust the electorate to make the right choice. It is our view, and my view, that this is the right structure. Consolidating the role, so that the Mayor can exercise a wide range of powers and co-ordinate with partners, is the right structure. That is why we have done it in London and Greater Manchester, and why we are in the process of doing it in the West Midlands, which covers Birmingham as well. Obviously the four local authorities, the current PCC and the current Mayor agree with this. Taking a sober step back, I just think that this structure is one that works, regardless of some of the problems that might exist with the current personality.
Alexander Stafford
The Minister is being incredibly generous with his time, and I appreciate it. I have two different points, so will make two interventions if he will allow me. First, the Minister keeps mentioning the profile of Andy Street and the great job he is doing in the West Midlands, which he is—there is no question about that. However, the Mayor does not have PCC powers there, so the job can be done without PCC powers. In fact, the Government are going through a battle with the PCC in the West Midlands to try and stop that happening, and there is a judicial review. What is good for the goose is good for the gander. How is that possible? This structure is clearly not working.
Chris Philp
First of all, Mayors with a very high profile—particularly Andy Burnham and Sadiq Khan—do exercise PCC powers. Andy Street has asked for the PCC powers in the West Midlands. He believes, I think rightly, that exercising those powers will enable him to do a better job. We agree with Andy Street.
Alex Norris
The Minister again makes the case that those structures are better in and of themselves. Our view is that that should be for local determination. However, if that is true in the Minister’s view, what does that mean for those communities that can never have that structure, and the calibre of their leadership and decision making?
Chris Philp
We are trying to implement those structures where there is coterminosity. That is not physically possible in all places. For example, the shadow Minister mentioned the proposed combined authority across Derbyshire and Nottinghamshire. At the moment, those are two separate police forces. Unless the police forces are merged, it is impossible to do that. We cannot have the same solution across the whole country unless we start merging police forces or changing police force boundaries. We can do the best possible given the current boundaries. If Nottinghamshire and Derbyshire want to come forward and propose a merger of their police forces, obviously they are free to do that.
Chris Philp
The shadow Minister is shaking his head. I suspect there would be a lot of local opposition to doing that. It is impossible to have the combined Mayor of the east midlands exercising PCC powers, because there are two different police forces. We just physically cannot do it there, but we can do it in other places. Just because we cannot do it everywhere—
Chris Philp
I am going to finish up now.
We should do it where we can. Where it is done—in London and Greater Manchester—it is working. Andy Street wants it in the West Midlands. I know there are issues with the individual concerned in this case, which we do not need to talk about any further, but we should vote for the right structure and the right principle. While I completely respect the views that my colleagues are advancing, the Government think this is the structure that is right in perpetuity.
The Chair
Before I put the Question, I remind Members that the only people who are entitled to vote are those who have been appointed to the Committee.
Question put and agreed to.
Resolved,
That the Committee has considered the draft South Yorkshire Mayoral Combined Authority (Election of Mayor and Transfer of Police and Crime Commissioner Functions) Order 2024.