Welsh Assembly Legislation (Attorney-General)

Nia Griffith Excerpts

Tuesday 15th October 2013 Commons Chamber

[Paul Flynn]

That is absolutely right. Leaving decisions to the courts and depending on expensive silks is no way to run devolved Assemblies or national Governments.

A Bill on recovering NHS costs for asbestos treatment is also of great value. It went through the Assembly over the summer and is at an advanced stage. The first people to have their lives destroyed by negligent employers, or by defects in the health service with which they were provided, have suffered—it is a terrible, crippling disease—and they will be entitled to compensation from those who were responsible for causing the problem. What is wrong with that? The Bill has not been finally resolved, but if there is a problem with such Bills, surely the two authorities should discuss and resolve it.

[Nia Griffith (Llanelli) (Lab)]

Does my hon. Friend agree that that Bill is important because it will recover money for the health service, which is a very worthwhile thing to do? One would have thought there would be support for that across the whole of the UK.

[Paul Flynn]

That is absolutely right. The main part of the Bill is to get money back for the health service from the negligent people who allowed diseases to take hold. Many of the unfortunate people affected by asbestosis in Wales worked in industry.

Tied to all this is the Government’s view of devolution. The Silk commission reported after a referendum that measured popular opinion in Wales. We know that the Tories have always had trouble with devolution. They were very much against it in 1994 when, as my right hon. Friend the Member for Neath (Mr Hain) has said, three of us were disciplined by the Labour party in Wales. Only one of their candidates in the first Assembly was elected by first past the post, while a few others came in through the assisted places scheme.

--- Later in debate ---

[Nia Griffith (Llanelli) (Lab)]

I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Newport West (Paul Flynn) on his excellent speech in which he described our grave concerns about the way in which money has been used and continues to be used to deal with matters in a legal context rather than a political one. My right hon. Friend the Member for Torfaen (Paul Murphy) made the key point that we would like to see such discussions resolved politically, rather than being taken through the courts, with the huge costs that that involves.

The Secretary of State for Wales is responsible for initiating the action. The sad thing is that in each case, he has acted right at the last minute. Instead of discussing early on whether the Assembly was taking the appropriate measures or proceeding in the right way, on each occasion he has waited until the very last minute, when the Welsh Assembly Government have had everything ready and have been prepared to act, to raise the objection, in an almost obstructive manner. I hesitate to use that word because it might be considered unparliamentary to accuse him of such action, but it really does look as though he acts just when the Welsh Government have an excellent idea.

My hon. Friend the Member for Ogmore (Huw Irranca-Davies) spoke about the preparation that was done to allow the Agricultural Wages Board to remain in Wales. That was not a matter of starting from scratch, but of continuing what was already there. However, that has been laid waste because the legislation was put in question. That is such a wasteful way of proceeding.

I would like to ask the Minister a question, to which I hope he will respond when he replies, although I fear it might be difficult for him as Solicitor-General, because he cannot predict what his colleague the Secretary of State for Wales will do. My question is, when will this process end? How many more things will the Welsh Government prepare and be ready to run with, only to find that they are suddenly thwarted? We want that process, and the ridiculous waste of money, to stop now. If there are doubts about what is within the competence of the devolved Government, let us get that sorted out properly, around the table in a grown-up manner, not in the current ridiculous way. It is like children running up to mummy or daddy to ask whether something is right or wrong. It is an absurd situation, and I would like to know whether the Attorney-General has had talks with the Secretary of State for Wales about making this the last time it happens. It should not continue in future.

RSPCA (Prosecutions)

Nia Griffith Excerpts

Tuesday 29th January 2013 Westminster Hall

[Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Williams. I have to put it on the public record that I am a proud member and vice-president of the RSCPA. I am also proud of the fact that the UK has laws protecting animals from abuse and neglect. There is always room for improvement, but, taken as a whole, this legislation is a marker of a civilised society that refuses to condone cruelty or tolerate the exploitation of other species.

[Nia Griffith (Llanelli) (Lab)]

I should like to say, as a member of the Committee that considered the Animal Welfare Bill in 2006, that when we make legislation we want it to be enforced. Does the hon. Lady agree that there is no point designing legislation and ensuring that it is workable and enforceable if it is not enforced?

[Caroline Lucas]

I agree, which is why it is so extraordinary that, somehow, upholding the law can be regarded as a political or, worse, a party political act. I do not get that.

It is interesting to note that the hon. Member for Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire (Simon Hart), who secured the debate, has coyly not mentioned the H-word. That is probably because he realises that he has lost that case. We have clear guidance from the Charity Commission, which says that

“the Commission does not consider that the trustees have breached their duty of prudence in the case of this prosecution.”

Having lost that case, the hon. Gentleman is now hitting out wildly with a lot of accusations, not based on evidence, about prosecutions more generally.

Like the vast majority of members of the public, I strongly support the Hunting Act 2004—I am not afraid of using the H-word—and I am committed to strengthening its provisions, as well as to seeing the ban on the use of dogs in chasing and killing wild mammals rigorously upheld. As the hon. Member for Llanelli (Nia Griffith) said, as with other legislation designed to protect animals, or anything else, enforcement is critical. That is why bringing prosecutions is so important. The RPSCA is uniquely placed to carry out that task.

Colleagues know that in 2005 a Select Committee concluded that the RSCPA was the only organisation with the requisite expertise to undertake animal welfare prosecutions. The Association of Chief Police Officers has also gone on the record to pay tribute to the importance of this role and its fulfilment by the RPSCA, saying:

“Were the RSPCA, as a charity, to decide next week not to do this work any more none of the rest of us in the public service could pick it up. Animal welfare would not be furthered; it would be significantly disadvantaged.”

Thanks to its excellence and consistent best practice, in 2010, the RSPCA secured the convictions of 2,441 defendants for animal welfare offences and gave out 86,354 welfare improvement notices under the Animal Welfare Act 2006. In 2011, a total of 3,114 convictions were secured, further reinforcing the message that the law is essential to its work as a charity charged with protecting animals from abuse.

This work as a private prosecutor is clearly identified in the RSPCA’s constitution as part of its charitable aims, which include preventing or suppressing cruelty towards animals In the charity’s own words:

“Upholding the law is not a political act but is in direct furtherance of the RPSCA’s charitable purpose.”

That said, it rightly has a clear duty to ensure that any prosecutions undertaken both meet a public interest test and are backed up by strong evidence that animal cruelty is taking place. The Charity Commission says:

“If considering a prosecution, charities must consider whether bringing a prosecution is a reasonable and effective use of the charity's resources, what the prospects of success are, and whether the public interest is served by a prosecution.”

Let me take each of those considerations in turn in relation to the decision to prosecute the Heythrop hunt, as that case in particular seems to have prompted this debate.