Scottish Welfare Powers

Neil Gray Excerpts

Tuesday 20th March 2018 Westminster Hall

[Bill Grant]

That is an interesting question. We cannot see people going without entirely, so yes, I would lean towards its being a human right. Social security is a safety net that in this country, and in Scotland, we can be proud of providing, and I hope that we are able to do so for a long time to come, through a good, strong economy and people in employment.

The third principle is that the welfare system should give those who can and want to work the opportunity to do so. That is an essential part of its modernisation. It has rightly been the guiding principle of welfare reforms across the UK in recent years, and we should not underestimate the dignity and sense of fulfilment that accompany employment.

It is with those principles that I have approached the debate today, but one further important requirement underpins them all, which is that the system works. That sounds very simple and easy, but I am increasingly concerned that the Scottish Government are simply not moving fast enough to ensure that it does. Hundreds of thousands of people receive the benefits, so it is vital that the devolution of powers is delivered safely and in an orderly way. It is vital also that people know what will happen under the new system, that the Scottish Government think through policy properly and that they have the structures up and running to take over the important responsibilities.

[Neil Gray (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP)]

Has the hon. Gentleman articulated any of those concerns directly to the Scottish Government?

[Bill Grant]

I can honestly say no, but I believe that it is not my role to do so at this juncture. The hon. Gentleman may have a different view, which I fully respect. If there is a need to do so, I will certainly take him up on that.

This is no easy feat. I accept that we cannot just magic up a new welfare system. I do not underestimate how much work must be done. We have known the timeline for the devolution of the powers for quite some time now, yet there is still no real detail about how the Scottish Government intend to use the important main powers. The fact is that Scottish National party Ministers in Scotland are proceeding exceptionally slowly with implementing this aspect of devolution. I suspect that the SNP is now beginning to realise that creating a welfare system that is fair to everyone, including taxpayers in the UK and in Scotland, is not an easy task. That I accept.

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[Bill Grant]

I have to take the hon. Lady’s word for that. I have not seen that report. I have no reason to doubt it, but I would have to know more about it before I agreed to apply the word “fairness.”

Disability benefits are being devolved by April 2020, and we have been promised that a new Scottish social security agency will be up and running, ready to take on the handling of welfare issues, in time for the next Scottish election. Time is moving on, yet many of the details are still desperately lacking. For example, we do not know how the system will interact with and work in parallel with the UK system and the Department for Work and Pensions. Might the Minister be able to indicate whether he has discussed that with his Scottish counterparts? That might reflect on the hon. Member for Airdrie and Shotts (Neil Gray) tasking me with that job.

That lack of detail and policy is a concerning feature of the SNP Government’s approach to welfare. We know that they will take over responsibility for benefits such as disability living allowance and personal independence payments. What we do not know, however, is precisely what their policy will be on disability benefits. What assistance do they propose for people with disabilities? How will claims be made, assessed and processed through the system? How much will people be able to receive?

[Neil Gray]

With due respect, the hon. Gentleman is clearly not following proceedings in Holyrood. At the Committee stage alone we discovered from the Scottish Government—supported, I think, by the hon. Gentleman’s colleagues in Holyrood—that the medical information required for the assessments will be gathered by the social security agency so that there will be a reduction in the need for face-to-face intervention. That is just one area in which we know there is clear detail from the Scottish Government.

[Bill Grant]

That progress is fairly slow, but I welcome it.

[Bill Grant]

I thank my hon. Friend for that intervention.

[Neil Gray]

Clearly the hon. Gentleman’s colleague is also rather behind the times on how the process works in Scotland. That report came before the Social Security (Scotland) Bill went to its Committee stage in its passage through Holyrood.

[Bill Grant]

I will not be the referee on what is right or wrong in the report, but the truth will be in there somewhere.

Most worryingly, the detail we have from the SNP simply has the look of an attempt to move away from Westminster systems and be different just for the sake of it. Take disability benefit assessments, for example. One of the first and only changes that the SNP has announced is over the role of the private sector in those assessments. It has yet to justify that approach, and I am not clear what the actual benefits will be.

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[Bill Grant]

If the hon. Gentleman will bear with me, I want to make a wee bit of progress. Just like the policies themselves, there is little detail on future costs. It is important that we know how much things will cost and how taxpayers will be expected to fund the Scottish system. Are we going to see yet more tax rises for the people of Scotland, or will other services begin to see cuts? My Scottish Conservative colleagues and I have spoken regularly in this place about the need for Scotland’s two Governments to work effectively together, and that is true for welfare.

[Neil Gray]

Has the hon. Gentleman read the financial memorandum that was published for the Bill on Friday? Has he considered the Scottish Government’s remarks that suggest we will always pay for the social security system out of the funds we have in Scotland and any efficiency savings that come forward? Clearly the finances are there.

[Bill Grant]

I welcome the hon. Gentleman’s comments. I certainly hope that there are efficiency savings in that regard, but I am a bit sceptical.

Take universal credit, for example. The Scottish Government have made use of the flexibilities available, and they are well within their rights to do so, but consultation and information sharing with the DWP could be much better. In Scotland, claimants can choose to have the housing element of their universal credit paid directly to landlords. In England, the DWP does not simply pay people money and turn its back on them. If somebody has fallen two months in arrears with rent payments, a UK-wide system of alternative payment arrangements is triggered and rent can be paid, where needed, directly to landlords. It is best if individuals can manage their own money to match the working environment. It is important that they are allowed to manage their own money where they can and that there is a system to support them.

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[Neil Gray (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP)]

It is a pleasure to speak in this debate with you in the Chair, Mr Rosindell. I congratulate the hon. Member for Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock (Bill Grant) on securing the debate. As has already been evidenced, it has allowed us to highlight the rather stark differences in the approach to social security in Holyrood and here at Westminster.

I also feel a wee bit sorry for the hon. Gentleman as, when he secured the debate, he really must have thought it was going to be a chance to get another “SNP bad” story on the Scottish Government for failing to deliver on their promises. Of course, the Scottish Government are proceeding quite nicely as they build the new Scottish social security agency. He must have been choking on his kippers at breakfast this morning as he read the headlines about his Prime Minister selling out the Scottish fishing industry. Today is really not the day for Scottish Tories to talk about promises to the electorate, when the SNP Government are keeping theirs.

[Tommy Sheppard (Edinburgh East) (SNP)]

Last week, the Equality and Human Rights Commission published its report on the cumulative effects of the UK Government’s tax and benefit policies, which showed that the very poorest in our society—the bottom 10%—are the ones who have suffered the most, and the ones who have suffered the least are the richest 10%. In other words, it is a system that is in direct and converse relationship to what it should be. Does my hon. Friend agree that, given their legacy, Government Members have a bare-faced cheek to try to attack the Scottish Government?

[Neil Gray]

I absolutely concur.

The hon. Member for Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock suggested that the Scottish Government are not following due process in preparing for the new system, and that they are not ready for the new powers because there is a lack of detail in the plans. I politely suggest to him that both statements cannot be true. Indeed, both are false. He himself acknowledged many of the areas in which the Scottish Government have used their powers to act. The Bill to create the new Scottish agency passed Committee stage at Holyrood—it did so with remarkable consensus, given the topic of discussion—so the process has been followed in a timeous fashion.

The Scottish Government are in regular contact with the hon. Gentleman’s colleagues in the DWP about how the two systems relate to each other. I wonder whether the Minister has done the groundwork that the Scottish Government have. We have yet to see evidence that he has. On the process point, the hon. Gentleman is clearly wrong.

[Luke Graham]

Does the hon. Gentleman agree that benefits across this country should at least be of one high standard? We have to be careful that, in creating another agency, we do not end up duplicating services, creating more cost for our taxpayers and delivering a worse service for our constituents. In other words, there has to be an incremental benefit, not duplication, more cost and bureaucracy.

[Neil Gray]

I agree with the hon. Gentleman’s constructive intervention to a point. That is why the Scottish Government are taking time to consider setting up the agency and are doing what they can to liaise with the UK Government about how the systems will operate in tandem.

The hon. Member for Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock is also wrong on the detail point, which relates to our readiness. From the Bill’s progress in Committee alone, we know that private companies will not be involved in delivering assessments. A new benefit will be provided to overcome his Government’s removal of housing benefits from most 18 to 21-year-olds.

[John Lamont]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Neil Gray]

To paraphrase Mike Russell, I am afraid I have too few minutes and too much to contradict the Tories on. I am very sorry, but I do not have enough time. I have taken other interventions.

We will establish an independent scrutiny body—the Scottish commission on social security—and we have a legal duty to scrutinise proposals for regulations and have regard to human rights. The new agency will seek medical information at the outset of an application—applicants will not be required to collect it at appeal stage—so face-to-face assessments will be reduced. The legislative process required to deal with the successful transition of 11 benefits is still going on in Holyrood, so there may be more detail to come.

Those who contradict the hon. Member for Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock are not restricted to SNP Members. I am keen to quote a couple of his colleagues in the Scottish Parliament. On 19 December, the Tory spokes- person on social security, Adam Tomkins, described the Scottish Government’s Bill as “landmark legislation” and said that

“the general principles of the bill should be supported.”

His colleague, Michelle Ballantyne MSP, went even further on the same day, and said that our Bill

“has the potential to revolutionise social security in this country.”

It is interesting that the hon. Gentleman has chosen this topic for debate, given that his colleagues up the road are not quite so keen to denigrate the Scottish Government’s actions. That is one of the reasons why I asked whether he had written to the Scottish Government at any stage about any of his concerns. You will be shocked to learn that he has not, Mr Rosindell. Call me cynical, but I think motives other than just inquiring about the progress in this area might have been at play when he called this debate.

The Scottish Tories were supposed to be coming to Westminster to vote as a bloc to protect Scottish interests and advocate for Scotland. Instead, they have used Westminster as a platform to try to denigrate the Scottish Government to the point of farce. Perhaps if the Scottish Tories had spent less time trying to do the job of MSPs, which many of them left, and more time watching what their own Government are doing, they would not be in the fisheries mess they currently find themselves in.

That leads me to my main questions for the Minister. How are the UK Government’s plans for the new Scottish social security agency going? What work has the Minister commissioned to ensure there is no delay to the smooth progress, which is currently on track to be delivered by the Scottish Government? What work have the UK been doing to keep up with—

[Andrew Rosindell (in the Chair)]

Order. You are out of time, I’m afraid.

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[Alok Sharma]

No, I will not, if the hon. Lady does not mind. A lot of comments have been made, and I want to deal with them.

The devolution of welfare powers represents a considerable and positive change, but it will require strong collaboration and co-operation from all sides if it is to be a success. The hon. Member for Airdrie and Shotts (Neil Gray) asked about the UK’s commitment. I can tell him that we have set up and resourced dedicated teams to lead on Scottish devolutions; we have shared—and we continue to share—our learnings and experience with the Scottish Government; we have run more than 100 workshops and operational visits; and we have shared many hundreds of pieces of information. We are absolutely committed to working in partnership with the Scottish Government to ensure a safe and secure transfer of the welfare powers for which they now have responsibility.

Scotland is an integral part of the United Kingdom, and our economic and welfare reform policies recognise that. Unemployment in Scotland is at a near historic low, which we should all welcome, and more people see greater security in retirement. Following the decisive result of the 2014 independence referendum and the ensuing Smith commission, we are delivering on the promises we made to people in Scotland by devolving £2.8 billion in welfare powers.

[Neil Gray]

If we are working together and in partnership, will the Minister support the private Member’s Bill of my hon. Friend the Member for Central Ayrshire (Dr Whitford)? That would negate the need for the Scottish Government to have to negotiate with the Department for Work and Pensions and would pay for the DWP to deliver split payment services under universal credit.

[Alok Sharma]

If I may, I will come on to how we are co-operating with the Scottish Government. At the end of the day, there is of course also a requirement on the Scottish Government to play their part. Many of the powers are being devolved: that involves not only a right for the Scottish Government, but a requirement for them to deliver.

The Scotland Act 2016 was an historic moment that created a shared welfare space for the first time. Since September 2016, the Scottish Government have had power to deliver employment programmes for disabled people and those at risk of long-term unemployment, and to vary the housing cost elements of universal credit through the universal credit choices. They have also had the power to top up reserved benefits using their own resources and to create new benefits in areas of devolved responsibility.

We have seen progress in some of those areas, with the DWP providing considerable support to enable the Scottish Government to deliver their transitional employability programmes from April 2017. From April this year we will support the introduction of their successor employment programme, Fair Start Scotland, which relies on Jobcentre Plus work coaches playing a key role in the referral process.

Since 4 October last year, we have been delivering universal credit Scottish choices through the universal credit system. That has allowed those living in Scotland who make a new universal credit full service claim a choice on whether they are paid twice monthly, instead of monthly, and whether their housing element is paid directly to their landlord. Since January this year, regulations allow for those universal credit Scottish choices to be extended to those who were universal credit full service claimants before 4 October, as well as to those claimants transferring from live to full service, once their claim has been established.

We are yet, however, to see any proposals for how the Scottish Government intend to use their powers to top up benefits or to create new benefits in areas of devolved responsibility. The Scottish Government are proposing to pay a carer’s allowance supplement to carers living in Scotland from this autumn, but they have still not put forward proposals on the disability benefits such as personal independence payments, disability living allowance and attendance allowance for people in Scotland.

My hon. Friend the Member for Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock asked about joint working. As he may know, there is a joint ministerial working group on welfare, which is jointly chaired by the Secretary of State for Scotland and the Cabinet Secretary for Communities, Social Security and Equalities in the Scottish Government. It continues to oversee the transfer of the new employment and welfare responsibilities. The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions also attends the working group. My Department has worked hard to share our knowledge and experience and has invested significant resource to support the Scottish Government’s thinking and planning.

It is two years this week since the Scotland Act received Royal Assent, and I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock that the public need clarity, as there is still much to do. Meaningful devolution in such areas cannot happen until the Scottish Government make their policy intentions clear and put in place the infrastructure to deliver them.

The hon. Member for Airdrie and Shotts asked specifically what we were doing with the Scottish Government. I can tell him that, obviously, we have been supporting them in a whole range of areas, as outlined, but we are keen to understand in greater depth the Scottish Government’s plans for post-wave 1—when I say that, I mean the disability benefits that I have already outlined.

The reality is that if the Scottish Government fail to deliver those welfare powers by 2020, the people of Scotland will need to be protected. Plans are in place to ensure that the DWP will be able to continue to administer and deliver the devolved benefits, as we do now, under an agency agreement for a defined time. We will ensure that we provide the greatest support and the greatest protection for the people of Scotland.

[Neil Gray]

Given that the parliamentary process is proceeding in a timeous fashion and to time, what evidence does the Minister have to suggest that the Scottish Government will not proceed to time unless the UK Government have not done the groundwork?

[Alok Sharma]

My intention is not to create any kind of ranking—we want to work with the Scottish Government. The point that my hon. Friend the Member for Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock made, rightly, is that he has concerns about the pace at which things are moving. I repeat: the faster the Scottish Government move forward, the faster and more easily we can work together to deliver, ultimately, for the people of Scotland. That is what are here to talk about—not the politicians, but the people of Scotland.