The Future of Pubs

Neil Carmichael Excerpts

Thursday 9th December 2010 Westminster Hall

[Dr Thérèse Coffey (Suffolk Coastal) (Con)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Benton. I declare straight away that although I am not a pub landlord, I am a member of the Campaign for Real Ale, and so often associate the words “beer” and “pub”. I thank the Backbench Business Committee for granting the debate and the hon. Member for Leeds North West (Greg Mulholland) and my hon. Friend the Member for Staffordshire Moorlands (Karen Bradley) for making a compelling case and securing the debate a couple of weeks ago.

Everyone knows that the pub is the heart of the community, especially in our rural parishes. I grew up in a city and so have a different relationship with and memory of the pubs I visited there, but in the parish, the pub is truly the place where one goes to get gossip, beer, often food, and companionship. I used to live in Hampshire, and even now I can say “pub” to my dog and she knows that we are going to the pub. Dogs are mainly welcome in rural pubs, which is another reason why they are a good place to be. I am sure that for many of us the most important feature when organising our election campaigns was the choice of which pub to go to at lunchtime and in the evening as part of our rest time.

Of course, going to the pub for the first time is a rite of passage. In the main Chamber today we heard about the rites of passage that some of our young people go through, but turning 18 and going for that first legal drink in a pub is an important one in this country. Anyone who has ever been to Epcot, a theme park in Florida where every country from around the world is represented by a particular village, will know that the bit that represents the United Kingdom is the pub, which shows the international recognition of that institution. Even Madonna was keen on her Friday night drinks when she lived in London.

However, the debate is not about rites of passage, or recognition that the pub is the heart of the community, but about the future of pubs. The statistics seem rather gloomy. The number of pubs closing each week seems to be increasing. We recognise that there are financial difficulties, partly because people are tightening their purse strings and deciding how much they want to spend, and partly because of the increasing duty that pub landlords and landladies face when selling their goods and because of the rent for the lease, which may have been fixed in the good times, but still has to be paid in the bad times.

The difficulties pubs face can also be the result of a lack of support and a lack of customers, perhaps because of changes in lifestyle. I think that another Member plans to talk about changes in permitted practice, particularly the ban on smoking indoors, which some have indicated has led to a drop-off in the number of people attending pubs. Anecdotally, I recognise that to be true. As most landlords will confirm, the smoking ban has led to a lack of drinking because people are outside smoking, so there is an element of transactions falling as well.

To be honest, there are some awful pubs in our country, but there are some terrific ones as well. Pubs are so much about the people who run them and the customers who go there. Like any small business, they have to be excellent in order to thrive, but we, as politicians, need to ensure that they have the conditions in which they can thrive. As any business knows, it is all about footfall, average transaction value and costs, and the first two can be increased only with a great business leader, and a great landlord and landlady.

There are about 54,000 pubs. About one third of them are free houses, which leaves a significant proportion of the trade tied and managed. I could be wrong on this, but I believe that there are more pubs than churches in our country, which reflects how important they are. Like churches, many of our pubs are tied to one religion—or one brewery. There are some excellent breweries. The brewery in my constituency, Adnams, has a significant number of excellent pubs. It promotes the community and has community awards—that is an important part of running an Adnams pub. I should also refer to the other excellent Suffolk brewery, Greene King, which also has a number of excellent pubs around the country.

[Neil Carmichael (Stroud) (Con)]

I am a great fan of pubs, as many pub landlords in my constituency know perfectly well, not just by what I say but by what I drink. I want to mention microbreweries, which perform a valuable function. Does my hon. Friend agree that it is a good idea to encourage microbreweries? I have done so by having a brew made called “Neil’s coalition brew”, which is proving popular. That underlines the role of microbreweries.

[Dr Coffey]

I hope that there is not too much froth on the beer when it is pulled—I am sure there is not. I am sure that the beer has a good head and a stout body. [Interruption.] He will bring us a bottle—excellent.

Of course, I recognise that there are restrictive practices. My hon. Friend the Member for Staffordshire Moorlands referred to the tie, and how it can be damaging to a landlord who wants to experiment with extra guest beers and so on. They can be told that they cannot do something. They can actually be told by the brewery, or by a landlord of a different kind, that they are not allowed, for example, to show football anymore. It can really kill a pub if the landlord has decided to branch out into a particular area and is then told that they cannot. I believe that sometimes that is done deliberately to try to run down the custom of a pub and lead to its closing. Why would someone do that? The reason has already been alluded to: planning. Let us be honest: sometimes the land, the building or the pub garden could fit in six or 10 houses, which would provide a great deal more instant income for a landowner than keeping a pub going in a particular area.

Options are coming forward. I am delighted that the Minister with responsibility for pubs is here to give us answers about community right to buy. Pubs are not small things to take on, but at least communities will be given the powers to take them on if they wish to, and that is good news.

My hon. Friend the Member for Selby and Ainsty (Nigel Adams) has introduced the Protection of Local Services (Planning) Bill, which he sees as a way of trying to restrict the change of use of certain amenities such as pubs, community centres and shops. I do not think that that is necessary. I cite Basingstoke and Deane borough council, where I used to live some time ago. Its planning policies were very restrictive. In fact, they virtually ruled out change of use of any community facility, including pubs. If a pub or shop is lost, they are gone for ever; it is almost impossible for them to return. We should encourage our local councils to look at examples of good practice where that element has been restricted without the need for primary legislation.

Looking forward and trying to be much more positive, pubs with the right ownership and freedoms have a safe future in our country. They need stronger freedoms. My hon. Friend the Member for Staffordshire Moorlands referred to guest beers, and my right hon. Friend the Member for East Yorkshire (Mr Knight) referred to relaxing laws about, for example, live music. I will name my landlords, but this will be the only time, Mr Benton. Rick and Jennie Powling run the White Horse in Westleton, which is the fine hostelry that I frequent every Friday night. They are paranoid whenever someone brings in a guitar. They almost leap on them and say, “You can’t play that here. You can play it outside, just not inside.” That is ridiculous and crazy. Music in pubs—not just specialist music pubs—is important. The community should be able to enjoy fine songs such as “Wild Rover”, and talk about beer, money and landladies to their heart’s content.

There are many people who want to speak today, so I shall come to a halt. The future will be brighter for our pubs if they are freer to operate—if they are set free from unnecessary regulation. Other Members will speak about pricing, but I would like to remove the distortion in the market that makes it cost that much more to drink in the pub than at home, where people can drink beer that they have purchased at below cost price. This is about planning, and encouraging our councils to be more restrictive and protective of their precious assets in villages, towns and cities across the country.

We must also encourage other income streams; I think of what is happening with post office essentials. If a pub is open from 11 until 11, there is no reason why one cannot buy stamps and get driving licence forms and so on there. There are also aspects such as the internet hub. We have the digital village pump, and I know that schemes are afoot already to try to ensure that it is near the pub, so that people can use the internet there as well. Of course, we had the endorsement of His Royal Highness Prince Charles in 2001, when he spoke about the pub as the hub. On that note, I raise my glass and toast the future of British pubs. Cheers, everyone.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Turner]

My hon. Friend is right, but the new pubs tend to be in the centre of town, whereas the existing pubs tend to be in the suburbs. That makes a difference.

[Neil Carmichael]

Frankly, that is a very important point, all the more so because the Minister with responsibility for planning is listening to this debate and will, no doubt, respond to it. The point is that we need to introduce a localism element to encourage communities to start new pubs, and to ensure that they thrive and prosper. There is plenty of scope, I trust, in the decentralisation and localism Bill for that to happen, and this debate will strengthen that case.

[Mr Turner]

My hon. Friend is certainly right there. It is true that pubs open and close, and some pubs close and open. One on the island was the Sun Inn, Hulverstone, which reopened as a pub after people tried to get planning permission to make it a home. They failed to get that planning permission, and the property was pushed back to being a pub. It is a very successful pub.

--- Later in debate ---

[Neil Carmichael (Stroud) (Con)]

Thank you, Mr Benton, for allowing me to go to the main Chamber for the other debate, in which I have yet to make a contribution, though I hope to. I have made two interventions in this debate so far. One was to underline my new “Neil’s coalition brew”. I forgot to say that it will be available next week, for those who wish to sample it. The other point I made has been picked up by other speakers, and it was about localism and the importance that the localism Bill will have for local pubs. I would like to add to that point and say: let us encourage our councils to be bold and imaginative.

I have picked up a theme from one or two of the speeches: councils sometimes think that no is the best answer because it is the easiest. We want to see local councils setting out a vision—an agenda that matches people’s aspirations and, in this particular case, matches the desire for good local pubs. That requires the empowerment of local councils. Another important point about local councils is that they have to learn to enforce matters more rigorously and effectively. Enforcement is the other side of the coin to making decisions. That is a point that needs to be emphasised with regard to pubs.

There are too many restrictions. In my constituency, I have a problem with signage. Unbelievably, some pubs are having difficulty making their wares and services known, because the highways authority is not best pleased with signs on pavements and roads. That has to be handled in a more flexible way. Otherwise, we will drive past places without knowing that they are there or what they do. I make a plea to local authorities generally and to the Government in particular to encourage a sense of fair flexibility.

There are loads of pubs in my constituency; hundreds of them are very good. I have several favourites: The Woolpack in Slad—“Cider with Rosie” records activities in Slad valley—The Ram Inn in Woodchester, an excellent pub, and The Old Spot in Dursley. I could go on, and probably should, because there will be some who say, “Why did you not mention me?” I picked those three because they use their imaginations: they do things beyond what is normally expected of a pub. That is one characteristic of pubs that we need to encourage. If the Minister or hon. Members see a pub that is going further down the road of inventiveness, encourage it and allow that to happen. That would be useful to the industry.

Hon. Members have talked about supermarkets. We have to recognise the cartel problem, as regards both supermarket pricing and the ownership of pubs. We have to think carefully and astutely, with our minds on what business wants. We cannot stand in the way of business, but we must allow business to operate in an environment that is competitive and enabling. The Government need to go back and think carefully about cartels and the capacity that they have to disrupt a perfectly good business.

I want to finish there, because I think most of the other points have been well made. If people want to do something, they should not just say it is a good idea; let us do it. They have to follow it through. The Government have a great opportunity to do that.