Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Mims Davies and Alison McGovern

Monday 13th November 2023 Commons Chamber

[Mr Speaker]

I call the shadow Minister.

[Alison McGovern (Wirral South) (Lab)]

The Minister began answering these questions by claiming credit for having better youth unemployment figures now than in the aftermath of a global financial crisis, which seems to me to be a low ambition. As she has heard, we have problems with inactivity and we have more young people who are not doing anything. What account can she give for the fact that, even after 13 and a half long years of Conservative Government, we have worse youth unemployment than Ireland, Norway and the Czech Republic, and that here it is double what it is in Germany and treble what it is in Japan? What on earth has gone wrong?

[Mims Davies]

I think that is a reminder to continually speak up for opportunities for our young people. The current youth employment rate is 53.9%, up three percentage points since 2010. It has been my absolute mission in this Parliament, over the last four and a half years, to focus on young people, with around 140 new youth hubs to support the complex needs of young people. I humbly suggest that the hon. Member goes and looks at the changes that are happening, to see the difference being made in communities up and down the land. We are not writing young people off; we are making sure that we support them. I went to see a new youth hub only last week, and the work being done on housing and with partners is innovative. It means young people with smiles on their faces and their futures in their hands.

Social Mobility

Debate between Mims Davies and Alison McGovern

Tuesday 21st March 2023 Westminster Hall

[Alison McGovern (Wirral South) (Lab)]

Thank you for calling me to speak, Mr Robertson. I will try to be swift.

I obviously thank the right hon. Member for Bexleyheath and Crayford (Sir David Evennett) for securing this timely debate, and I thank all the Members who have spoken. The right hon. Member began by mentioning the 2022 report of the Social Mobility Commission. However, since its publication the chair of the commission has given up her role and it is unclear what the future holds.

I am here on behalf of the shadow Department for Work and Pensions team, and the Minister is here representing DWP. Responsibility for social mobility has been passed from Education to Equalities and now to DWP. Over the past couple of years, that has suggested that it is an unloved policy area for which nobody really wants to take responsibility.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Mims Davies)]

I really wanted it!

[Alison McGovern]

I am sure the Minister did. But what exactly is going on? Part 1 of the Equalities Act 2010, which Parliament passed all those years ago, set out a public sector duty regarding socioeconomic inequalities that would have tackled, in a cross-cutting way, as ably described by my hon. Friend the Member for Ellesmere Port and Neston (Justin Madders), all the issues that Members have mentioned today. That is its objective. Amazingly, the Conservative-Lib Dem Government and subsequent Conservative Governments have never brought that duty into force. We are left asking why.

However, as we are here with a DWP Minister and her shadow, I will just raise some points about the Department’s own policy areas. If it had that overarching duty to tackle socioeconomic inequality, it might not have adopted, as it has done for many years now, the policy of any job, better job, career. That policy has shaped the Department’s approach and has resulted in people being told to get any job, as if that was a route up or a route out of poverty. As we have heard from Member after Member today, it is simply no longer the case that work, by definition, provides a route out of poverty. It is also true, and the Government themselves know this from their own pay progression report, that getting any job is not a route to better pay.

We need new principles and new policies, not least because of the geographical impact of this issue. We know from the House of Commons Library’s analysis of the Social Mobility Commission’s previous rankings that 77% of constituencies in London are in the top 20% of social mobility constituencies by metric, whereas the corresponding figure for the west midlands falls to 14%, for the east midlands 9%, for the north-west 8%, for Yorkshire and the Humber 7%, and for the south-west just 2%. Of the top-ranking areas for social mobility, 77% are London constituencies and just 2% are in the south-west. Geography is at the heart of this.

Exactly what steps is DWP going to take to clarify the role of the Social Mobility Commission? What data will be made available to this House and when on the current state of social mobility in this country? Precisely what targets are the Government now setting? What is the future for the commission’s metrics—it seems to have veered between different ones—and its report? And what action will DWP take immediately to stop forcing people to take jobs that, as several Members have said, are likely to make them struggle with social mobility and not achieve their ambitions?

Social mobility cannot just be a talking point for us politicians; it has to be about genuine hard work to shift the opportunities in our countries. I am afraid that the Tories and the Lib Dems saw this as a way out in 2011: they wanted to end the child poverty goal and to put something fluffy about social mobility in its place. But passing a non-specific goal from Department to Department is kidology—it will never work. We need a real effort for change. My hon. Friend the Member for Ellesmere Port and Neston has already said how the Labour party will do that. The first thing that we will do is to enact part 1 of the Equalities Act 2010 and take real action against class discrimination and put in place policies to bring it to an end.

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[Mims Davies]

The support for all groups, no matter their background or where they are, is exemplified by hon. Friend pointing out that particular group. I am happy to come forward with further information on that, including cross-Government work.

The Government remain committed to all aspects of life, from education to work and later life, and to having a comprehensive suite of measures in place to achieve social mobility. The challenges laid down today are very welcome, because we have heard about different experiences in the different corners of Britain. Yesterday I visited Sandwell, West Bromwich, Wolverhampton and central Birmingham to discuss how our DWP support, youth offer and work with the third sector and local partnerships is making a difference in our communities.

I do not agree with the hon. Member for Wirral South (Alison McGovern) on the ABC—any job, better job, career—approach. Throughout the engagement that I had yesterday, it was consistently said to me that the skills, confidence and network that that gives people are transformative. As we have all spoken about today, you have to start somewhere.

[Alison McGovern]

It is great to hear the Minister’s contribution, and I know she cares deeply about this issue. If she has evidence of the efficacy of that policy approach, will she place it in the Library of the House of Commons?

[Mims Davies]

We are doing some work on the impact of the kickstart scheme and how getting a job and progressing is leading young people to stay in work. There will be further information coming, and I will always share that with the hon. Lady.

In my conversations yesterday, I heard how adverse childhood experiences such as bereavement, poor attainment at school and other issues have impacted on young people’s confidence and opportunities, and on their experiences in adulthood. It demonstrates the critical point made in the Chamber this afternoon about the importance of getting education right and, above all, getting the Government’s lifetime skills guarantee right. As my right hon. Friend the Member for Bexleyheath and Crayford rightly said, education and skills have a massive impact. I absolutely agree that local colleges are among the most socially mobile and able connectors in terms of what they achieve, and I applaud the work that goes on in colleges. Spreading opportunity for every child and young person is a top priority, because their talent should contribute to where they end up.

I am concerned by the point made by the hon. Member for Ellesmere Port and Neston (Justin Madders) about job opportunities being hidden behind paywalls. As the former Employment Minister, and as the Minister for Youth, I worry about those opportunities. I thank him for raising that point. I ask those sectors that often approach the Government about being more socially mobile and more open to look at themselves. This is not a finger-pointing exercise, but those that continue to recruit in the same way often end up with the same people around the table. If that is excluding people, let us look at those recruitment basics.

The Government are investing in 55 education investment areas where outcomes in literacy and numeracy are the poorest, including £86 million in trust capacity funding to support and expand areas of improvement. That will help my hon. Friend the Member for Darlington (Peter Gibson) in terms of his reading ask. I will meet my parliamentary neighbour, the Minister for Children, Families and Wellbeing, my hon. Friend the Member for East Surrey (Claire Coutinho), shortly and will raise the issue of reading confidence. I was delighted to hear my hon. Friend the Member for Darlington use the O-word—opportunities. We are absolutely trying to spread opportunities.

The Department for Education is delivering a clearer skills system that is employer focused, high quality and fit for the future, which is what my right hon. Friend the Member for Bexleyheath and Crayford, who set up the debate so well, asked for. If only we had had time for a longer debate. We should get this subject into the main Chamber and spend more time on it. I would be very happy to respond to it—that is another commitment from me today.

The Social Mobility Commission has said that apprenticeships are among the best mechanisms to help employers build that diverse, talented, wide-ranging workforce, as well as to tackle the skills shortage. Many apprentices earn more than graduates five years after completion. Average graduate earnings five years after graduation are £28,200, compared with £30,900 for level 4 apprentices five years after completion. That is a lesson to us all to promote filling the skills gaps with apprenticeships.

DWP has progression leads in our jobcentres to help people. I recognise that some people work all the hours God sends but still find it difficult to make ends meet. Our progression leads work with our claimants, partner organisations, local authorities, local employers and small and medium-sized enterprises, to make sure that people are able to progress in work.

I had a very engaging meeting with leading employers during the week of International Women’s Day, to talk about the barriers and to focus on interventions. I will meet the Social Mobility Pledge team, including our former parliamentary colleague, Justine Greening, to discuss her mission. She is doing a brilliant job. DWP also has the social mobility commitment, pledge and consortium, of which 60 employers are a part.

It has been such a pleasure to respond to today’s debate, because this week is the DWP’s inaugural social mobility week—a week of action and engagement in our Department, with colleagues across the country working out how to tackle any barriers and to focus on social mobility. That includes being a national employer and giving our customers aspirations and goals. We are looking at things such as caring responsibilities, and I will host a session on Thursday. We are also looking at subjects such as accent bias and recruitment bias. I hope that reassures the hon. Member for Wirral South.

Throughout the debate, we have seen that social mobility is a key priority and I hope I have shown my passion for it. We will break down the barriers. No matter what someone’s background is, we can cater for every single circumstance. Everybody, like us, should have the opportunities to succeed.

Universal Credit and Jobseeker’s Allowance (Work Search and Work Availability Requirements @0017 Limitations (Amendment) Regulations 2022

Debate between Mims Davies and Alison McGovern

Wednesday 20th April 2022 General Committees

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Mims Davies)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Ms Elliott, and to have the opportunity to discuss the regulations in detail.

The regulations are part of an innovative intervention that we have at the Department for Work and Pensions: the Way to Work campaign. Let me explain why they were introduced. They are important to the Government’s ambition to build back better and move more people into work. The hon. Member for Wirral South raises concern about the urgency of those interventions. As the UK Employment Minister for the last three years, I have met employers who are desperately keen to fill vacancies with the talent that they have down the road. I think it is right that we step up and deliver. As regards our engagement with the SSAC, we continue to work and engage with it.

This has been an incredibly challenging year for everyone, especially those whose career or sector has been specifically impacted by the pandemic. We at DWP have been conscious of the damaging effect of being out of the labour market for a prolonged period of time. That is exactly why we introduced the Way to Work campaign. It is a specific drive to help 500,000 people into new jobs by the summer. The Government know how to introduce labour market interventions that really work. I am incredibly proud of the plan for jobs and the other interventions. Kickstart has offered us the opportunity to build on the success of job matching, disrupting the way people are recruited and making sure that it is quicker and much easier for people to get into work.

[Alison McGovern]

Will the Minister give way?

[Mims Davies]

I will make some progress. We at the DWP have monitored the labour market incredibly closely throughout the pandemic and put in that package of interventions through the plan for jobs to protect livelihoods and, above all, boost employment. The labour market context, which we cannot take for granted, absolutely illustrates the impact of the positive measures that we have put in place. It created a staggeringly positive effect.

In fact, unemployment levels are at 3.8%, and—despite the pandemic—they have not been lower since 1974, which was, it pleases me to say, before I was born, just about. The combination of the end of plan B covid measures and almost 1.3 million vacancies meant the scope that jobcentres had at the same time to return to full face-to-face activity presented us a unique opportunity to address the shortages and critical vacancies in particular sectors and help the labour market to grow faster. People who may have been waiting for their chance before the pandemic would have faced another two years of being held back had we not acted. To address that, we developed the Way to Work campaign, including the key policy objective secured by the regulations, working across Government ahead of the Prime Minister’s announcement on 26 January. The DWP has used the strength of the jobs market—I repeat, there are 1.3 million vacancies—to build on kickstart. It has meant we can work directly in our open jobcentres with employers to get claimants into those vacancies quicker, as well as strengthening our core support for jobseekers so that they can progress sooner.

Two things have happened in the labour market during the pandemic: people have wanted to transition and try new things, and in some sectors they have stepped up and helped in times of need. I make no apologies for any job, better job, career. The longer a person is out of the labour market, the harder it is for them to move forward, and it is absolutely right that we give people the chance to step back in, grow their confidence, and move on from there.

[Alison McGovern]

There are many surveys out there and a lot of information from businesses that say they do not support the Government’s approach for the reasons I mentioned. If the Minister can provide the Committee with some evidence that businesses support it, I invite her to do so. When the Minister mentions 500,000 people, is she talking about the 1 million people who have left the labour market? Unless we have an offer for those people, we will not get anywhere near dealing with the vacancies crisis.

[Mims Davies]

The hon. Lady makes an important point about the evidence and why employers want more people to apply for their jobs who normally would have ruled themselves out. On labour market figures day last Tuesday, I was at a job fair at one of our 190-plus new jobcentres, just outside Gatwick airport. They have 5,000 vacancies at the jobcentre there, and I spoke to representatives of Gatwick airport and local supply chains who were delighted to be meeting claimants who were looking to change and move into the sector, to help reinvigorate and bring back tourism and aviation. Those people had perhaps done different things before the pandemic, or were looking to progress and do something else. I can give the hon. Lady plenty of examples of employers, going beyond surveys. This is about real people—it is beyond statistics. It is about jobs, livelihoods, and real people progressing.

The right hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington was wondering why this is suddenly an issue. According to my records, he has not been to his local jobcentre since 2017, so perhaps if he popped down to that jobcentre and spoke to the work coaches, he would see it in action.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mims Davies]

I thank my hon. Friend, because that is exactly what the initiative is about; that is our total intent.

The hon. Member for Glasgow South West mentioned the Select Committee session this morning. The regulations are absolutely about tailored support for the right opportunity down the road. They are meant to help people to become more self-reliant and to enjoy the improvements in their wellbeing from being in work and all that it has to offer. In doing that, claimants can take the next step of building a more secure future and being more prosperous and, of course, they are helping our economy to recover.

The effects of the regulations are that jobseekers with a strong work history and who are capable of work will be expected to search more widely for suitable jobs earlier in their claim.

[Alison McGovern]

rose—

[Mims Davies]

I think this point is important for people to understand, so let me just reiterate it. The effects of the regulations will be that jobseekers with a strong work history and who are capable of work will be expected to search more widely for suitable available jobs earlier in their claim because of the shortening of the permitted period. The permitted period is the time in which claimants can narrow their work search within their usual sector. I must add that this is not applicable to all claimants who make a new claim. These regulations reduce the permitted period from 13 weeks to four weeks. We believe that reducing the permitted period could aid claimants’ chances of finding work more quickly and seeing more options that are available to them sooner.

[Alison McGovern]

I thank the Minister for giving way; she is being very generous. There is clearly a disagreement about what the evidence may or may not show about the efficacy of the policy, so will the Minister be good enough to make public or put in the Library of the House of Commons the analysis that supports that?

[Mims Davies]

I will write to the hon. Lady with further details covering some of that, but I would like to reiterate something about the history of the permitted period. Perhaps this will help her. The permitted period was formulated as a policy as part of the Social Security Act 1989 and was originally set at 13 weeks, which was considered reasonable in the context of the labour market at that time. The end of the permitted period is not a deadline to move into work. It marks the point where a claimant needs to agree commitments that will help them to seize the record opportunities in the current labour market. Good work coaches tailor their ask of their claimants, listen to their needs and give them advice about how they can transition and take up more roles, by listening and engaging. This is not about putting people into jobs that are not right for them.

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[Mims Davies]

There is a fundamental misunderstanding on the Opposition Benches about what our work coaches do and how we are helping people to progress and move forward. The hon. Member for Wirral South made some comments earlier about jobcentres and our work coaches—

[Alison McGovern]

No.

[Mims Davies]

I can say that the feedback consistently is that they are a continually positive place to be. It is important that when people make comments—including about jobcentres wanting to sanction people more and being negative places to be—they do it from a position of understanding their strength.

At the heart of the debate is the perception that we are just trying to sanction people more. The reality is completely the opposite. We are trying to get people into work quicker.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mims Davies]

I do not think I have ever spoken about the reluctance of our claimants to be tenacious and open-minded and to move forward. In fact, that is what the relationship that we build among work coaches, local employers and sector-based work academies, and our approach that we have developed through the plan for jobs, has really brought out. Given the transitions and opportunities and our 50-plus choices and 50-plus champions, I often remind people that the latter part of their careers, when they have great choices, can be the most fulfilling of their working lives. In fact, that is 25% of a working life. The hon. Member for Wirral South mentioned those who fall into economic inactivity, which is something we are focused on.

[Alison McGovern]

indicated dissent.

[Mims Davies]

I think the hon. Lady spoke about people leaving the labour market—that is the point I was making.

With regard to the regulations, it is important to mention the evaluation, which will help the Committee, and then I will conclude. We will reflect on the evidence and what the Way to Work campaign has brought forward. The evidence shows that, as we have discussed, how hard it is to secure a job is often based on how long it takes to return to the labour market. With Way to Work, we are giving new claimants more time with their work coach and making sure that we bring local employers into the jobcentres with sectors and opportunities that perhaps people would never have found otherwise. That will help more claimants move into work quicker, and we will be routinely reassessing the impact of the changes on universal credit claimants more generally.

It is important to reiterate that we know that the longer people are out of employment, the harder it is, so intensive support sooner from DWP is what this is about. It will mean that claimants who are expected to broaden their job search will take advantage of the additional vacancies out there. To be clear, we do not expect claimants to move into work that is not right for them. The Committee should be clear on that. Our work coaches are specifically trained to direct claimants to suitable opportunities, where they are appropriate and tailored to their personal needs and circumstances.

Given my comments, I trust the Committee understands both the need for the change in the regulations and why we felt it important to deliver at pace, as we heard from my hon. Friend the Member for Bracknell. The change is designed to build on the success of our plan for jobs. I hope I have reassured the Committee about the measures. We are committed to seeing the jobs filled quickly for progression in every community. People can succeed by working with us at DWP to find their next career at any age or any stage.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Mims Davies and Alison McGovern

Monday 21st March 2022 Commons Chamber

[Alison McGovern (Wirral South) (Lab)]

The Minister has just accepted the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Oldham East and Saddleworth (Debbie Abrahams) that far too many people in this country are stuck in low-paid work. Last month the Secretary of State told me that she was the block to the Government’s response to the report on in-work progression, and last week the Minister told me it would be coming soon. It looks like nothing is happening, so may I give the Minister one last chance: when will the Government respond to the report they commissioned last year on in-work progression?

[Mims Davies]

I thank the hon. Lady for giving me one last chance at the Dispatch Box—that sounded rather ominous. In-work progression is absolutely vital; from April we will, as was just mentioned, have more work coaches supporting people who have got stuck, as some people have—there might be things going on in their lives which mean they need more skills or confidence. The Secretary of State and I are working on this response and will be bringing it forward very shortly.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Mims Davies and Alison McGovern

Monday 13th December 2021 Commons Chamber

[Mr Speaker]

We now welcome the shadow Minister to her new post. I call Alison McGovern.

[Alison McGovern (Wirral South) (Lab)]

Thank you, Mr Speaker. People across the country who have had a really hard time at work in the past year need DWP Ministers focused on their jobs. It will not have escaped your notice that it was reported over the weekend that the DWP has joined the last Christmas naughty list of Whitehall lock-ins during lockdown, but it is not me the Secretary of State should be apologising to—it is the more than 100,000 young people who will not be helped by the time the underperforming kickstart scheme comes to a close before Christmas. So may I ask the Minister: when kickstart comes to a halt and thousands of young people still need help, what then?

[Mims Davies]

I thank the hon. Lady for her question and welcome her to her post. I know that she has a strong interest in young people in every constituency doing as well as they can. Kickstart has not underperformed. Let us be honest: more than 112,000 young people have joined the programme. Of course, when we created the programme, we expected an unemployment level of perhaps 12%; it is just over 4%. Let us focus on the outcomes for those young people, which we are tracking carefully. We are linking up with the Department for Education to ensure that the traineeships and apprenticeships are there.

I know that visiting her jobcentre is on the hon. Lady’s to-do list. When she does so, I am sure she will hear amazing stories about what is happening to young people locally.