Trial of Jimmy Lai

Mike Penning Excerpts

Monday 18th December 2023 Commons Chamber

[Anne-Marie Trevelyan]

The hon. Lady is absolutely right: there have been shocking attempts to dissuade, make fearful and stop Jimmy Lai’s legal teams here in the UK getting on with their job of defending his case and raising the issues that we have set out today. We work closely with the Home Office, as do his lawyers, to support it and other parts of Government to provide those teams with the technical support that they need. We will continue to do that. It is perhaps a question to pick up and discuss in more detail with the Minister for Security, my right hon. Friend the Member for Tonbridge and Malling (Tom Tugendhat). I can ask him whether he will discuss it with the hon. Lady, should she so wish.

[Sir Mike Penning (Hemel Hempstead) (Con)]

Ten days ago, on 8 December, Jimmy had his 76th birthday—it is not rude to say that he is not a young man. This House could send a message to the rest of the world through an early-day motion. An early-day motion was tabled on 13 December by the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon), and more Members need to sign it. I will not give the honour to people outside this Chamber who decry early-day motions—although, in fact, there are not that many of them. If we want to send a message, there is a methodology, although it is not the only one. I know that lots of colleagues do not like signing early-day motions, but on this occasion, perhaps they should.

[Anne-Marie Trevelyan]

My right hon. Friend is absolutely right. The tools that we have at our disposal here in the mother of Parliaments, which allow for freedom of speech and expression, are incredibly important. As a Minister who spends a lot of her time on the other side of the world in countries large and small, I am very conscious that the messaging from this Parliament is heard loud and clear in every other country. We perhaps forget just how important our voice is in standing up for the values that we believe in.

Rohingya Crisis

Mike Penning Excerpts

Tuesday 28th November 2017 Westminster Hall

[Sir Mike Penning (Hemel Hempstead) (Con)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Paisley. I want to say from the outset that there is a court in The Hague where the people who have been perpetrating these murderous activities will end up, and it is for this Parliament and this Government to work internationally to make sure that they are brought to justice.

By coincidence, my researcher worked in what was then Burma, long before the new golden leadership, when the generals were in charge. There is nothing new about what has been going on there. Colleagues who went to the camps saw people born there not 10 years ago or 15 years ago, but in excess of 25 years ago. It is a crying shame that the camps are still in that condition. The longevity of the camps is very important. I had the honour and privilege of visiting our troops in South Sudan—another place in the world where we should all be ashamed of what is going on—and the camps there had fresh water, sanitation and some longevity, so that when the rains came, the people there were protected.

At the same time, we need to think of the people of Bangladesh. These camps are on the side of the river, on some of the most fertile land that these people, who are subsistence farmers, have. That land has been taken away from them for generations now, and more will be taken away. The right sort of compensation needs to be directed to them, through either our aid budget or the international community.

[Catherine West]

Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?

[Sir Mike Penning]

I will not, because I want everybody to be able to speak. That is very important.

I am very worried that we might be encouraging people to go back to Myanmar with the so-called deal between Bangladesh and the Myanmar Government. People are being asked up to give up really quite personal details that could be easily used against them when they return to this place—I am conscious of not talking about a country, because it is not a country. These people have no rights. It is illegal under international law to make someone have no citizenship at all, yet that is exactly what has happened there for generation after generation.

My view, which may be different from colleagues’ views, is that we must not be part of any deal that encourages people to go back to watch their daughters being raped—they are not of my daughters’ age, of 26 or 27; girls of 11, 10 or younger are being raped—and their sons castrated in front of them. That is what is going on. That is the sort of thing that, if we are not careful, we will condone.

There is no change in the country. The generals are still in control, and they feel they can do this to these people because nothing will happen to them. We must make sure that something does happen to them and that they go to the international court in The Hague, so that we protect these people.

Aleppo

Mike Penning Excerpts

Monday 28th November 2016 Commons Chamber

[Mr Ellwood]

Britain’s humanitarian effort should be praised by everyone in the House. We are providing £2.3 billion—that makes us the second-largest donor— £23 million of which is going directly to UN organisations geared to making sure that the aid gets to where it is most urgently required. We are now debating the tactics of how to get the equipment into place, and the hon. Lady is advocating that British aeroplanes—Hercules aircraft or otherwise—go into Syrian airspace and make those drops.

[The Minister for the Armed Forces (Mike Penning)]

They would be shot down.

[Mr Ellwood]

They would be shot down, as my right hon. Friend says. I am not even aware that the UN has requested airdrops. I am not saying that they will be ruled out or who should do them. It may be that we can co-ordinate and make them happen. They are not being dismissed; I am simply telling the House that it is hugely complicated. I have been in the armed forces and involved in several airdrops, so I know that very often, when the drop zone is particularly small, the kit lands in the wrong place and goes to the very people we do not want to receive it. As I touched on before, the scale of the aid required means that an enormous number of sorties would have to be conducted; but with transport trucks, we could get the aid to the exact locations, if they are given the permissions. I am sorry to labour the point, but were we to conduct airstrikes, it would require Syrian support. If we can get that support, it is better that it be for the trucks, which could get through to the exact people requiring the aid.

Piracy (Somalia)

Mike Penning Excerpts

Thursday 14th June 2012 Westminster Hall

[Jim Sheridan (in the Chair)]

Unfortunately, we have to proceed with the business of the House. It is extremely discourteous of the Department to treat the Select Committee as it has done and I am sure that the appropriate people will be aware of exactly what has happened. However, I am unclear how that can be remedied at this late stage. Does the Minister wish to say something?

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport (Mike Penning)]

I am the Minister responsible for the guidance, although it is not my debate. Clearance was delivered to us only this morning from the Ministry of Justice, and I published it as soon as possible. I apologise to the Chairman of the Committee because he was not given a copy of it. The Chairman is correct: the guidance has to be right, which is why we have published it today. Copies will be here for Committee members before the end of the debate.

[Jim Sheridan (in the Chair)]

Will the absence of the information impact in any way on the debate?

--- Later in debate ---

[Richard Ottaway]

I am grateful to the Minister for the very detailed response that the subject deserves.

I will not detain the Chamber for long. I have three quick points. The right hon. Member for Warley (Mr Spellar) intervened to ask about the Committee’s position on prosecution policy. I happily confirm that the Committee’s position is as I, and the Minister, set out. It is preferable for a prosecution to be successfully dealt with locally, otherwise it should come back to the United Kingdom.

We have had interesting divisions on ransoms. The truth of the matter is that there is no answer; both arguments are right. There is merit in both sides of the argument. Frankly, it is better to focus on preventing capture than on paying a ransom. There is a difference between corporate interest and the private interest of the yachtsman.

I will conclude with some comments on the guidance. I am grateful to the Department for Transport for providing the guidance during the debate. I have had a brief chance to look at it. There are clearly substantial changes, which are welcome. The Minister is right to say that it is not as much as we were calling for. It is probably best to say that in the preparation of our report, we have had legal advice and I will run the guidance past our lawyers. I recognise, however, that there are important changes. I also note that the Crown Prosecution Service guidance is still incorporated. I suspect that there is no alternative, because that is the law of Britain. Perhaps therein lies the problem—if we are to have a separate law out in the Indian ocean, it would require primary legislation that may not currently be in the coalition’s plan.

The guidance has also thrown up an interesting distinction in devolved law, distinguishing Scottish law and the law of England and Wales. I am not quite sure exactly which applies when the red duster is flying on a ship. However, it is interesting to note, under footnote 15 of paragraph 8.10, that the use of lethal force in Scotland will only be justified in defence of life, or by a victim resisting rape. That is quite a high bar.

[Mike Penning]

I am very proud to represent the red duster for the UK; this is not a devolved matter. If someone is on a British-registered red duster ship, UK law prevails over international law.

[Richard Ottaway]

I am grateful for that intervention, which begs a question about the need for a footnote about distinguishing Scottish law and the law of England and Wales. [Interruption.] That is very interesting; piracy off Scotland will have to be investigated.

Clearly, a lot of questions need to be considered, and the Committee will do that. The Minister’s suggestion that we have a further short debate on this subject is constructive. It may not be inappropriate for the Shipping Minister to debate it, but I leave that to others to decide.

Mr Brady, I am very grateful to you for chairing the debate, which has been particularly constructive.

Question put and agreed to.