Trade Union Funding

Michael McCann Excerpts

Wednesday 29th February 2012 Westminster Hall

[Mr Doran]

A whole phalanx of my colleagues will come in on that issue, but I want to focus on the issue I have outlined. To answer the hon. Gentleman’s question, however, I see this arrangement as a facility for management. In my constituency, which does not have a Labour council at the moment, staff are paid to do this work because it is a door for management to knock on when there is a problem. Whenever there is a difficulty, the two sides can quickly get together, and the people who represent the work force can talk with some authority; they do not have to work at the coal face in another job and then have to be briefed on an issue that has come up somewhere in another department. These things happen in the private sector as much as in the public sector because they are good for management—they oil the wheels.

[Mr Michael McCann (East Kilbride, Strathaven and Lesmahagow) (Lab)]

Does that point not sum up the fundamental flaw in the contributions of the hon. Members for Congleton (Fiona Bruce) and for Beckenham (Bob Stewart)? This is not about trade union facilities, but about the time given to fulfil industrial relation duties. The time used by trade union representatives is, in fact, tiny in relation to their own particular work, and the vast majority is used to ensure that the workplace works smoothly. That is where Tory Members are getting this very wrong.

[Mr Doran]

My hon. Friend speaks with a lot of experience. He has worked with local authorities across Scotland, and I bow to his knowledge. It is easy to count the cost of wages. The Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government, who has an axe to grind, has all the resources to get the figures together; but there is no assessment of the benefit to management. That is the fundamental weakness in the case.

The pendulum is swinging. I have described how we approached industrial relations, and the figures for time lost at work through strike action in the past 15 years show a dramatic improvement, but that graph is likely to change substantially. I am deeply concerned about the approach of any Government who think that the only way to resolve problems in the workplace is to reduce workers’ rights and remove their health and safety rights. That is a particular issue for me. I was a very young Member of Parliament when the Piper Alpha disaster happened. It was a time of light regulation in the offshore oil industry, because the imperative was to get the oil ashore and recover the taxes that it paid the Exchequer. One hundred and sixty-seven men were killed, and I have spent a lot of my political life still in contact with the relatives and survivors. It is not something I want repeated. I have a simple rule: one man’s red tape is another man’s essential safety system.

The Conservative party was not always the way it is now. A week or so ago I read an obituary of Robert Carr, who died recently. Lord Carr had the onerous responsibility of taking the Industrial Relations Act 1971 through Parliament. That was flawed, and he made it clear later in life that much of it was not easily understood; I think that was how he put it. He had practical experience of manufacturing industry. His family had owned a metal works, which apparently provided metal for the airframes for, I think, the Wellington bomber, during the war. It was a quite substantial company. After his spell as Secretary of State he said that because of his time on the shop floor in his fathers’ factory he understood the importance of trade unions. That breed of Tory—people with practical experience of the workplace—seems to have gone. He understood the importance of trade union rights and was genuinely liberal about them.

There are more important issues involved. The way we deal with the workplace is extremely important. As I have said, we have virtually lost our manufacturing base. We have the car industry and a few other significant areas, but perhaps we should look at what happens in other countries—particularly Germany. After the war Germany recognised the importance of good relations between the work force and management. It established a system that German trade unions tell me is almost as revered as the NHS. The key thing is that the work force has a voice at every level.

I lost my seat in 1992 and at that time—another confession for the hon. Member for Congleton—I worked for the trade union movement. I was responsible for organising some conferences for what is now a part of Unite, but was then the Transport and General Workers Union. One conference was about the automotive industry, and I had the task of asking the head of BMW in the UK to speak at the conference. I had a meeting with him and he asked me what I wanted him to say—an unusual situation for me; usually it is a case of being told what someone wants to say. I just said, “Be union-friendly.” He said, “I can be very union-friendly. I strongly believe that no major company can now operate without the strong support of its work force and trade unions.” He was a member of the main board of BMW in Germany at the time.

That philosophy seems totally alien in our political system. The debates on trade unions that we have had in this House—the last one was on a ten-minute rule Bill on facilities for trade union members—are marked by two things: ignorance and anger. There is polarisation on both sides. That is bad for us, politics and the country.

--- Later in debate ---

[Priti Patel (Witham) (Con)]

The context of this debate is the reform of trade union funding. In the four minutes that I have, I want to touch on the areas of facility time, direct payments to unions and the political levy.

The Minister will be aware that I welcome the current review of facility time. At a time when public bodies are being asked to publish all spending over £500, it is shocking how little information is being made available about the tens of millions going to the trade union movement in various forms. As part of the Government’s review, I urge the Minister and the Government to introduce measures requiring public sector employers to publish in full detail the use of facility time in their organisation, the amount of time and, importantly for transparency, its purpose. It is essential, because we need to see why facility time is five times more prevalent in the civil service and three to four times more prevalent in the wider public sector than it is in the private sector. That is a stark difference.

Both the public and private sectors are bound by the same laws on facility time and both sectors have to grant paid time off for trade union activities, such as negotiating pay conditions, meeting employers and supporting members at disciplinary hearings. Important though those are—I think that we would all agree about that—why do trade union members in the public sector seem to receive so much more paid time off than their private sector equivalents? That has to be looked into and is where the point about transparency comes into play.

I will give an example. Unison has boasted recently in various documents that securing paid facility time for trade union activities, such as attending conferences and campaign meetings, is a vital part of its organising strategy. Its community service group guidance note on facility time states that

“a key task for you in negotiating a facility time agreement will be to get as many activities as possible covered by your paid facility time allowance. In other words, although you’re entitled to unpaid time off…why not try to get those activities covered by your paid time off?”

That comes back to the point on transparency.

I want to touch quickly on direct payments. We have already touched on local authorities and the amount of time for paid equivalents, full-time equivalents and part-time equivalents and how—I think the hon. Member for Blaydon (Mr Anderson) said this—that was down to the local authority. It is worth looking into the extent to which this is taking place across the country. Some weeks ago, I mentioned Camden council, which seemed to be giving a lot of resource to securing union facility time and putting its payment as a priority, while cutting front-line services. That is a major area.

Direct payments are another way the public purse supports trade union activity. The Union Learning Fund costs the taxpayer something like £22 million a year and supports the employment of about 170 trade union employees. More transparency is definitely required in relation to direct payments.

[Mr McCann]

Will the hon. Lady give way?

[Priti Patel]

I will not give way, as I have to wrap up quickly. Regarding the political levy, it is worth noting that the membership forms for both the GMB and the Public and Commercial Services Union make no mention at all of the fact that their membership fee includes a contribution to a political party’s political funds. That is another area that requires more transparency. Those who sign up to join those unions should be informed that included in the price, they are signing up to give their money away to a political party.

I hope that the Minister will take these comments on board and let us know whether the Government can fast-track proposals in the report by Sir Christopher Kelly on party political finances to address these matters and empower union members to decide explicitly whether or not to opt in and pay their political levy, rather than having it taken from them without their knowledge.

--- Later in debate ---

[Nigel Adams (Selby and Ainsty) (Con)]

I will thank my hon. Friend the Member for Congleton (Fiona Bruce) for securing this debate.

I wanted to speak today because I am supportive of what trade unions do in representing the interests of their members, giving them a voice and standing up for their rights. Although the traditional view of the relationship between employers and trade unions has been that it is one of confrontation, that view is misleading; in most cases, employers and union representatives have a very constructive relationship.

Indeed, from the point of view of the employer many benefits come from unions. For example, trade unions can be a supportive and welcome presence in assisting with significant changes within a business and they also provide a forum for negotiation that often saves time and cost compared to dealing with employees on an individual level.

On a personal level, I am hopefully about to be elected as the new president of Conservatives at Work, which was formerly Conservative Trade Unionists. I pay tribute to Lord Taylor of Holbeach for all the work that he has done as the previous president. My colleague, my hon. Friend the Member for Harlow (Robert Halfon), is also very much involved with Conservatives at Work.

Conservatives at Work has played an important part in guiding the Conservative party in its work with trade unions, so I am involved in that and I have always remained supportive of the aims of trade unions. That said, I am uncomfortable with the idea of taxpayers’ money being used to fund union officials who are working in public sector roles, as was revealed in my own part of the world in June last year when it emerged that taxpayers are paying almost £200,000 towards the salaries of union officials at North Yorkshire county council while important local services were under threat, and indeed continue to be under threat.

On a wider level, it has been revealed that in 2010-11 public sector bodies spent £113 million on staff working on trade union activities.

[Mr McCann]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Nigel Adams]

I will push on, as I only have a couple of minutes to speak.

To clarify, £113 million of taxpayers’ money was spent. Broken down, an estimated £80 million was spent on paid staff time, with £33 million in direct payments, which was £7 million more in direct payments than in 2009-10. At a time when there is a lot of protest about cuts—due to the catastrophic financial position left by Labour, a party that I understand receives 90% of its funding from trade unions, although I stand to be corrected on that—it is not right that we have public sector workers who are being paid not to do the front-line service that they were employed to do. As the taxpayer is picking up the bill, the subscriptions that the unions raise from their members, which the man on the street would assume were being used to fund the union, can then be spent on other activities, such as campaigning or potentially keeping the Labour party afloat.

All of us on this side of the fence were thrilled at the Prime Minister’s recent public support for the campaign on union funding. He described the use of taxpayer funding to pay for trade union activity as unsustainable, both morally and economically, and I am pleased that we have the weight of the Government behind us.

I accept that under the Trade Union and Labour Relations (Consolidation) Act 1992, union officials have the statutory right to “reasonable time” off work, with pay, to attend to specified trade union duties, but let me say that again—it should be “reasonable time” off work.

--- Later in debate ---

[Alec Shelbrooke]

Absolutely. The hon. Gentleman asks whether shareholders would be able to do it. Why not? We are trying to empower shareholders.

[Mr McCann]

Does the hon. Gentleman not concede that it has already been tried? The Conservatives introduced the Trade Union Reform and Employment Rights Act 1993, which forced trade union members to re-sign up to their trade unions every three years—a further attack. Does he also concede that while he may believe in trade unions, the contributions from the hon. Members for Cannock Chase (Mr Burley) and for Witham (Priti Patel) demonstrate that they are on a completely different planet from the one he is on?

[Alec Shelbrooke]

I would not say that my hon. Friends are on a different planet from me; their arguments just have a different emphasis. Many Government Members believe in trade unions, and find it demeaning to be compared to the Third Reich. It demeans the hon. Member for Blaydon (Mr Anderson), who said that we were going the same way as Hitler by trying to remove the trade unions. That devalues the debate today, which is about where the funding comes from.

European Council

Michael McCann Excerpts

Monday 24th October 2011 Commons Chamber

[The Prime Minister]

My hon. Friend makes an important point. We did have a commitment to seek the return of important powers from the European Union, such as the social and employment legislation. Obviously, we are in a coalition, but as Conservative leader, I remain committed to achieving that, because it is in the British national interest to do so. My hon. Friend makes the important point, however, that it was not part of our manifesto or our policy to seek a referendum that included an in/out option. I completely respect the fact that there are Members, not only on this side of the House but on the Labour side as well, who have long wanted an in/out referendum, not least because some of them would like us to get out of the European Union altogether. But that is not our policy, and that is the reason we having the debate on this on a Monday, on a proper motion, in the proper way. This is not some side issue; it is an important issue. As I said before, I believe in the sovereignty of Parliament. To me, all decisions of Parliament matter, and the idea that we could sweep this off into a debate on a Thursday and that no one would notice is wrong. What Parliament decides matters, and that is why the Government are taking the motion seriously.

[Mr Michael McCann (East Kilbride, Strathaven and Lesmahagow) (Lab)]

A few weeks ago, I visited the Weir Group in my constituency. Its representatives explained the difficulties that they had had in evacuating British staff from Libya. They also told me of their keen desire to get back to working on vital infrastructure projects there as soon as possible. Will the Prime Minister tell us how he is going to ensure that that can happen?

[The Prime Minister]

I completely understand why the hon. Gentleman has raised that issue. It is important to his constituents and to that business, and, frankly, it is important for British investment in Libya. I can tell him that Stephen Green, Lord Green, has already held a Libyan investment conference and has plans to travel to Libya. I recommend that the hon. Gentleman contacts that Minister, and I will make sure that that happens so that we can help the Weir Group with the important work that it does.

Civil Service (Voluntary Severance)

Michael McCann Excerpts

Thursday 8th September 2011 Ministerial Corrections

[Mr Michael McCann (East Kilbride, Strathaven and Lesmahagow) (Lab)]

6. What estimate he has made of the number of civil servants who will leave the civil service on voluntary severance terms in 2010-11.

[Official Report, 7 September 2011, Vol. 532, c. 343.]

Letter of correction from Mr Francis Maude:

An error has been identified in the oral answer given to the hon. Member for East Kilbride, Strathaven and Lesmahagow (Mr McCann) during Cabinet Office Question Time on 7 September 2011.

The full answer given was as follows:

[The Minister for the Cabinet Office and Paymaster General (Mr Francis Maude)]

We aim to minimise compulsory redundancy. We reformed the civil service compensation scheme so that, for the first time, voluntary redundancy was more attractive than compulsory redundancy, which was impossibly expensive under the scheme left in place by the previous Government. We estimate that in early 2010-11 11,200 civil servants left the civil service on the new terms.

The correct answer should have been:

Oral Answers to Questions

Michael McCann Excerpts

Wednesday 7th September 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mr Maude]

My hon. Friend has raised an important point, and I will be very glad to meet him to discuss it. There is a huge amount we can do to use IT resources much, much better. Far too often in the past, the Government were reinventing the wheel by buying new systems and not reusing what they had already spent money on. That will now cease.

[Mr Michael McCann (East Kilbride, Strathaven and Lesmahagow) (Lab)]

6. What estimate he has made of the number of civil servants who will leave the civil service on voluntary severance terms in 2010-11.

[The Minister for the Cabinet Office and Paymaster General (Mr Francis Maude)]

We aim to minimise compulsory redundancy. We reformed the civil service compensation scheme so that, for the first time, voluntary redundancy was more attractive than compulsory redundancy, which was impossibly expensive under the scheme left in place by the previous Government. We estimate that in early 2010-11 11,200 civil servants left the civil service on the new terms.[Official Report, 8 September 2011, Vol. 532, c. 3MC.]

[Mr McCann]

I thank the Minister for that answer. Let me place on record the fact that he will share the objective that all severance packages are voluntary. Nevertheless, I am receiving from civil servants who work in my constituency evidence that they have been dissuaded from volunteering for a redundancy package because parts of their accrued service do not count for the final compensation package. Will the Minister ensure that maximum flexibility is deployed in order to allow us to reach the goal of all departures being voluntary?

[Mr Maude]

I can confirm that staff in the Crown Agents have always been outside the civil service compensation scheme. In April, I used the powers available to me under the scheme rules to allow service in the Crown Agents to count for compensation purposes for the voluntary schemes currently being run by the Department for International Development. I am aware that there are a few cases in which questions have arisen around service before joining the Crown Agents. My officials are actively engaged in clarifying what commitments were made at that time to these staff.

Public Confidence in the Media and Police

Michael McCann Excerpts

Wednesday 20th July 2011 Commons Chamber

[The Prime Minister]

My hon. Friend makes an important point. One of the things we can now do is leave the public inquiry to answer a lot of these difficult questions and refocus ourselves on issues related to the economy, the eurozone and jobs, which badly need answers.

[Mr Michael McCann (East Kilbride, Strathaven and Lesmahagow) (Lab)]

May I ask the Prime Minister a question that will both help him to be transparent and quash a conspiracy theory? What was the name of the company that vetted Andy Coulson?

[The Prime Minister]

The point is that we employed a company to do this work. It was not something that we were planning to publish. It is something that companies and businesses do all the time, but in the end the responsibility is mine for employing him on the basis of the assurances that he gave.

Public Confidence in the Media and Police

Michael McCann Excerpts

Wednesday 20th July 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mr Michael McCann (East Kilbride, Strathaven and Lesmahagow) (Lab)]

Today’s debate is entitled “Public confidence in the media and police”, but whatever the shortcomings of that title, everyone who is in the Chamber can agree that both of those have been shaken to the core by recent events.

The evidence offered by senior police officers yesterday and by senior Met officials could be assessed either as a demonstration of unprofessional and naive behaviour or as a wilful neglect of the integrity that we normally associate with those who have been given the privilege of holding high public office. Whichever conclusion we draw, it ain’t good. In particular, I draw attention to the evidence of Dick Fedorcio, which was unintelligible to me. That is more worrying when we consider that he is the man responsible for the Met’s message. Although John Yates has carried out distinguished work during his career—of that there is no doubt—I fear that he will be remembered for a Mr Magoo-style botched and bungled phone hacking investigation.

Like many others, I watched with great interest the theatre of the Culture, Media and Sport Committee hearing yesterday. At times, Rupert Murdoch cut a figure of an amalgam of all the caricatures that we have seen of him over the years, but it was the young pretender, James Murdoch, who revealed the most through half-answered questions. At times Mr James Murdoch looked on in terror at Mr Rupert Murdoch, wondering what he was going to say next. However, it was James Murdoch’s revelation about Mr Glenn Mulcaire’s legal costs being paid that brought Rebekah Brooks’s prophetic words into sharp focus. Members will remember that she said to News of the World staff that

“in a year’s time every single one of you in this room might come up and say, ‘OK, well I see what you saw now’.”

James Murdoch’s disclosure that Mulcaire’s legal fees were paid will, I believe, unlock Rebekah Brooks’s prediction. We must wait and see whether that is the case, but people do not pay for a criminal’s legal defence if they have nothing to hide.

My main purpose in contributing to today’s debate is to call on the Government to extend their investigations to every part of the media, not just the print media. Yes, there is no doubt that the behaviour of News International was indefensible and beyond the pale, but anyone who believes that it stops there displays Olympian detachment from reality. The behaviour of the printed news media in this country has, with few exceptions, been appalling at various times, and it is not until we enter the political arena that we see the worst of it. That behaviour has been sanctioned by a Press Complaints Commission that is paid for by the newspapers. I am reminded of the words of Luke 4:23, “Physician, heal thyself.” Self-regulation has to end. Mr Deputy Speaker, you were in the Chair on the evening of my Adjournment debate on 27 April, when I brought the House’s attention to the deficiencies in the self-regulation of the press. Like Alice Cooper, I consider myself to be ahead of my time, because shortly thereafter, press self-regulation became a headline issue.

It is my view, however, that the review of the regulation of the media must be extended to include the broadcast and electronic media as well. When debates on statutory control and self-regulation took place in the 1940s, 1950s and 1960s, the printed news media were the public’s primary source of information. Now, however, it is Sky News, the BBC News channel and the electronic media. The behaviour of those media must also be investigated, and the public must be afforded the opportunity to contribute to that investigation. I personally would be more than happy to contribute evidence on the behaviour of BBC Scotland, an organisation that I believe has broken its editorial code at our expense. It is currently under investigation following three separate complaints that I have made to Ofcom.

Debates about regulation have raged for decades. Royal commissions have come and gone, general councils have been set up and failed, and, as I pointed out on 27 April, self-regulation has also failed. I am delighted to see that all the main players now agree with me on that. I value freedom of the press and the rule of law, and, following this tide of terrible events, we now have a once-in-many-generations opportunity to set things right. I put it to the Prime Minister and the Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport that we should not fetter those who have been given the challenge of finding solutions to these problems.

[Several hon. Members]

rose—

Superannuation Bill

Michael McCann Excerpts

Tuesday 14th December 2010 Commons Chamber

[Mr Michael McCann (East Kilbride, Strathaven and Lesmahagow) (Lab)]

Two pieces of information have come out on this. First, we received a Cabinet Office circular from the right hon. Gentleman which sets out in detail how the negotiations went. It specifically makes the point that PCS made a proposal that would have reduced the amount of money being made available to lower paid staff in order to pay for enhanced benefits for those at the higher end of the scale. However, the trade unions have said that that is not the case. In order to give us more information about the negotiation process, can the Minister provide the figures to demonstrate how much would have needed to go to those at the top to cover those enhancements, and how much would have been taken away from those at the bottom?

[Mr Maude]

It is really hard to do that, because, as I pointed out in the letter that I sent to all Members, there were only outline suggestions made by PCS. Back in September, five of the unions—the five not including PCS—wrote to me with some proposals that they had signed up to, and that PCS had declined to sign up to. At their request, we entered into discussions with the five unions, and the ensuing proposals formed the basis of the new scheme that we have developed. They are not totally reflected in the scheme, but they formed the basis for it. I constantly and consistently urged PCS to join that process and to make concrete proposals, but it had declined to sign the letter that the other five unions had signed, despite being asked to do so by the five unions.

That protracted process involved meetings with Mark Serwotka of PCS and Steve Gillan of the POA, at which I urged them to make concrete proposals that would enable us to work towards a full agreement. All that emerged, however, after protracted delays, were outline suggestions. When asked how any additional protection for higher-paid people—not highly paid people, but those above the £23,000 underpin—was to be paid for, the only suggestions were either to lower the underpin, which would have meant that all lower-paid workers would have been penalised, or to reduce the protection available to those over 50. We were not willing to do that because providing protection was a priority for us.

Oral Answers to Questions

Michael McCann Excerpts

Wednesday 24th November 2010 Commons Chamber

[Mr Letwin]

Yes, indeed, I can; in fact everything I have been describing tends to that end. We are going to make sure SMEs know what contracts are available; we are going to make sure they get a proper account of what is awarded; and we are going to make sure that Departments are held to account in awarding to SMEs. We want transparency all the way through the process because that is what will drive Government to let contracts to SMEs.

[Mr Michael McCann (East Kilbride, Strathaven and Lesmahagow) (Lab)]

Now that Lord Young has gone, does the Minister agree that SMEs have never had it so good in respect of their share of Government procurements given the scale of cuts announced in the spending review?

[Mr Letwin]

Lord Young has resigned. My personal view is that the longest and deepest recession since the war, and the vast fiscal deficits that the Labour party bequeathed to us, have left not only SMEs but the entire country, and, of course, the Government, with an enormous challenge that we are now trying to meet.

Departmental Business Plans

Michael McCann Excerpts

Monday 8th November 2010 Commons Chamber

[Mr Letwin]

My hon. Friend can also have an early Christmas. We have instituted from 1 October the one in, one out rule. I should explain that it is more powerful than the rule that a regulation should be eliminated when a new one is introduced—it is that a regulation of equivalent cost to business should be eliminated, or indeed a collection of them with an equivalent cost to business. I want to take this opportunity to tell my hon. Friend and the House that since we introduced the one in, one out rule, the large flow of domestic regulation that was crossing my desk and others before that has somewhat diminished. Since 1 October, there has been one proposal.

[Mr Michael McCann (East Kilbride, Strathaven and Lesmahagow) (Lab)]

May I add my name to the list of Members who are mesmerised by the use of the language of horizon shifts? On the question of monthly reports, the Government have announced that about 500,000 public servants will lose their jobs under their plans. How many of those jobs will be saved in order to support the initiative that the Minister has announced today?

[Mr Letwin]

The first thing that I should say is that the Government have not made any such announcement; the Government accept the Office for Budget Responsibility’s forecast about the net effect on public sector employment. That does not mean anything like that number of current employees losing their jobs—nothing of the kind. Secondly, of course, had this initiative been introduced now by a Labour Government —to judge by what the right hon. Member for Birmingham, Hodge Hill (Mr Byrne) said it might have been, and that is a delightful prospect—it would have been accompanied by various things. Large numbers of consultants would have been hired to set up complicated websites and there would have been large reviews, huge expenditure and so on—and probably great expenditure on advertising. The total that we have spent on this exercise to date is zero. We have not employed a single consultant, we are constructing the websites ourselves and we are not advertising, because we are a Government and not a magazine.

Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill

Michael McCann Excerpts

Monday 25th October 2010 Commons Chamber

[Mr Harper]

I do not want to anticipate the debate that we will have on the proposals of the hon. Member for Rhondda, but we have said that someone’s standing postal vote application for parliamentary elections will trigger their postal vote for the referendum. It is the same franchise, and we thought that that was a better way around the problem than insisting that all those with a standing postal vote application for a parliamentary election apply for a new postal vote specifically for the referendum. We wanted to maximise the opportunities for people to take part rather than have people who miss out because they did not realise that they needed to apply for a new postal vote. We have ensured that if people already have a standing postal vote for a parliamentary election, they will get one for the referendum.

[Mr Michael McCann (East Kilbride, Strathaven and Lesmahagow) (Lab)]

In response to my hon. Friend the Member for Alyn and Deeside (Mark Tami), the Minister specifically mentioned people who have a postal ballot for parliamentary elections. My recollection of the paperwork that is issued in Scotland is that electors tick boxes to say that they want a postal ballot for all elections. That might seem like a nit-picking point, but will the Minister confirm that by ticking a box marked, “All elections,” people will be entitled to receive a postal ballot for the referendum?

[Mr Harper]

My understanding is that if people are entitled to, or have applied for, a postal vote for a parliamentary election and tick the box marked “All elections”—that is a common way of asking that question in England as well as in Scotland—and if they are on the list for parliamentary elections, they will get a postal vote for the referendum. I am sure that if I have got that wrong, inspiration will strike me and I can correct my answer.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Harper]

Not at all. Many voters give much thought to whom they will support in different elections. There are many examples of people voting differently in different sorts of elections, doing what they call splitting the ticket.

[Mr McCann]

Will the Parliamentary Secretary focus on the pertinent point about the 2007 elections in Scotland? Many elderly voters are extremely confused. I have many elderly constituents who are proud of having voted in every election since they were given the opportunity to do so. The introduction of new voting systems in 2007 made the ballot papers confusing for them, and they were disturbed by that. Does the hon. Gentleman accept that holding another vote on the same day as the Scottish elections will provide scope for confusion, and many people will therefore be disfranchised in the referendum?

[Mr Harper]

The hon. Gentleman would have a stronger point if we were talking about another set of elections with a new voting system, and putting everything on one ballot paper. However, we have examined the lessons in the Gould report and want to ensure that we combine the elections in such a way as to minimise the opportunity for confusion. Ron Gould said that combining elections would not be his preference—I am quoting him fairly—but he is confident that the scope for confusion is nothing like the situation in 2007. He is fairly confident that the elections and the referendum will be organised sensibly and competently. I think that our combination provisions achieve that.

[Mr Harper]

I will take one more intervention and then finish, because I am almost there. Hon. Members can then make their own speeches.

[Mr McCann]

I am very grateful to the Parliamentary Secretary for giving way again. Does not he accept that in Scotland we will have a first-past-the-post election for the Scottish Parliament, the alternative vote system, and then we must explain to people that there is also a yes/no vote? It would be fine if we had only the yes/no vote—that is straightforward—but there are additional complications. Does not the point that he has just made concede my point? That is the point that he must grasp.

[Mr Harper]

No, because no new electoral systems will be invented next year. People will vote in the Scottish Parliament elections in the same way as they did previously, with the addition of a relatively simple yes or no question on the voting system for this House. Voters may prove us wrong, but I think that they are perfectly capable of making such decisions at the same time as voting in Welsh Assembly, Scottish Parliament or English council elections, and of differentiating the polls. Clearly, that requires good organisation on the ground and good communication. The Electoral Commission is aware of that; that is why it will write to every household to set out clearly in each of the devolved parts of the UK details of the elections that are taking place, the referendum and the procedures, so that people are clear about it. The yes and no campaigns obviously bear part of that responsibility too.