Finance (No. 2) Bill (Third sitting)

Debate between Mel Stride and Dan Carden

Thursday 11th January 2018 Public Bill Committees

[Mel Stride]

As the hon. Lady knows, several announcements were made in the Budget about productivity, not least of which was the announcement about the national productivity investment fund; billions more pounds will be put in, raising its total investment level to around £30 billion. Initiatives such as the northern powerhouse and the infrastructure that will be put in place in the north and the midlands are evidence of our intent to make sure that productivity is levelled out across the country. We recognise that productivity is stronger in London, the south and the south-east, so particular attention is being placed on the midlands and the north of England.

There are two schemes for claiming R and D tax credits: the research and development expenditure credit—RDEC—scheme, and the small and medium-sized enterprise—SME—scheme. The SME scheme is more generous than the RDEC. The RDEC was introduced in 2013, featuring a new above-the-line credit. Businesses value it for several reasons, including because they can benefit from it whether or not they make a profit in the year in which they claim the credit. As R and D is often risky or pays back years after investment, this is a well targeted initiative. In 2015-16, the Government provided innovative businesses with more than £1.3 billion through the RDEC, which supported almost £16 billion of research and development.

In spring Budget 2017, it was announced that a review of the R and D environment had concluded that the UK’s R and D tax credits regime is an effective and internationally competitive element of the Government’s support for innovation. The changes made by clause 19 will provide around £170 million of additional support for innovative businesses every year from 2019-20. Increasing the rate of RDEC will make the UK even more competitive.

New clause 4 seeks to commission a review of the effect of this change on companies’ research and development spending, and of the effect of the increase on any changes to companies’ R and D spending as a result of the UK leaving the European Union. Since 2010, the amount of support that the Government have provided through R and D tax credits overall has more than doubled, reaching £2.9 billion in 2015-16.

[Dan Carden (Liverpool, Walton) (Lab)]

What research has been done on the potential loss of EU investment in scientific research funding? I understand that the review will be forthcoming, but this is a modest increase from 12% to 13%. Does the Minister think that gets anywhere near to plugging that hole?

[Mel Stride]

The hon. Gentleman raises an important issue; inevitably, as we leave the European Union there will be economic consequences in both directions. He will be aware that a motion was recently passed in the House requesting various assessments. Those have been delivered to the Exiting the European Union Committee, so I point him in that direction. If he is implying that it will all be disaster once we exit the European Union—

[Dan Carden]

indicated dissent.

Finance (No. 2) Bill (First sitting)

Debate between Mel Stride and Dan Carden

Tuesday 9th January 2018 Public Bill Committees

[Dan Carden]

What we see under this Government is the rich getting richer, so the fact that they pay more tax is not a great indication of what this Government are doing.

[Mel Stride]

The level of income inequality is at its lowest in more than 30 years.

Finance (No. 2) Bill

Debate between Mel Stride and Dan Carden

Committee: 1st sitting: House of Commons
Monday 18th December 2017 Commons Chamber

[Mel Stride]

That is a valid point. I am waiting with some interest to hear what Opposition Front Benchers have to say about that point in particular. Even my shadow, the hon. Member for Bootle (Peter Dowd), is waiting expectantly to hear what he himself has to say, which is intriguing.

[Dan Carden (Liverpool, Walton) (Lab)]

Did the big banks not lobby for this change, and are they not likely to benefit from the surcharge that has replaced the levy? Did not bigger, riskier banks pay more than other banks in the system?

[Mel Stride]

When we consider who benefits and who does not, we must assume that overall, given that more tax is being raised than hitherto, the banks are probably paying more tax on average as a consequence of these measures. However, the measures will obviously have different impacts on different banks, depending on their profitability and on whether they are at or above the capital threshold of £20 billion at which the levy itself begins to kick in.

In 2015 and 2016, the Government announced a set of changes in the way in which banks were taxed. We set out a phased reduction in the rate of the bank levy to 0.1% by 2021. We announced the changes that the Bill makes in the levy, reducing its scope so that it applies to banks’ UK rather than global balance-sheet liabilities. However, we also introduced an extra 8% tax on banks’ profits over £25 million, on top of general corporation tax. I hope that when the Opposition spokesmen respond to my comments and to the amendments and new clauses, they will at least recognise the important increase in taxation that has been applied to the banks since 2016.

--- Later in debate ---

[Dan Carden]

A branch of Barclays bank in County Road in my constituency has closed, and I know that many other Members will have fought to keep local bank branches open. Are the Government willing to take any action—at least in the case of RBS, which we partly own—to ensure that high-street banking is still available to the most vulnerable and elderly constituents whom we all represent?

[Mel Stride]

Conservative Members believe that it is better for commercial organisations to be left to run their own businesses. They tend to do it rather better than Ministers, dare I say—although I think I could be quite handy at running a bank or two; who knows?

The issue of bank closures is very important. We are working hard to reinvigorate our post offices and to ensure that the banking facilities that they provide—which are available, typically, to more than 90% of personal and business customers—are promoted in all the 11,500 branches in the United Kingdom.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mel Stride]

As is so often the case, my hon. Friend has hit an important nail on the head: in terms of improving our competitiveness, it is clearly deeply unattractive to have a situation where UK-domiciled banks are being taxed on their foreign operations whereas foreign banks are not being taxed by us on their foreign operations, but are only being taxed on their operations in the UK. He is right that the future of HSBC, Standard Chartered, Barclays and other banks, who make a huge contribution to our tax-take and our economy, are much more secure if they are not being disadvantaged by being taxed on overseas operations unlike their foreign counterparts. As part of these changes, the schedule also provides for a reduction in the amount on which the levy is chargeable for certain investments a UK bank makes in an overseas subsidiary.

I shall now briefly turn to the amendments tabled by Opposition Members. For the reasons I have described, we believe that a combination of taxing profits and balance-sheets is the most effective and stable basis for raising revenue from the banking sector. The bank payroll tax was intended as a one-off tax; even the last Labour Chancellor pointed out that it could not be repeated without significant tax avoidance. I can assure the House that information about the bank levy will continue to be published as part of the normal Budget cycle. Official statistics are published on the pay-as-you-earn income tax and national insurance contributions, bank levy, bank surcharge, and corporation tax receipts from the banking sector as a whole. The Government have published a detailed tax information and impact note on the proposed changes introduced by part 1 of the schedule. We have also published information about the overall Exchequer impact of the 2015 package of measures for banks, and these figures have been certified by the Office for Budget Responsibility.

Finally, new clause 2 proposes that HM Revenue and Customs should publish a register of tax paid by individual banks under the levy. Taxpayer confidentiality is an essential principle for trust in the tax system, and HMRC does not publish details of the amount of tax paid by any individual business. While this Government continue to consider measures to support transparency over businesses’ tax affairs, we must balance that with maintaining taxpayer confidentiality in order to sustain public confidence in our tax system.

[Dan Carden]

Is it not right that these banks, some of which were bailed out by, and may well look in the future for bail-outs from, the public, are treated slightly differently from other companies across the UK economy, and that we should have a public register for that reason?

[Mel Stride]

I would maintain that the banks are indeed being treated rather differently from other sectors of the economy, not least—as I have been at great pains to point out this evening—because they are being taxed far more heavily than other types of business. On a fundamental issue of principle relating to tax confidentiality, it would not be right to single out any particular bank, whatever its history, to make an example of it and treat it differently from other financial institutions.

The changes in this schedule are part of a package of measures that provide a sustainable basis for raising revenue from the banking sector in the long term. These measures continue to apply additional taxes to banks, to reflect the special risk that they pose to the UK economy. They put the taxation of banks on a more certain and sustainable footing to ensure that the banks will continue to pay additional tax, and they reduce the impact of the bank levy on UK banks’ international operations. In doing this, we will ensure their continued health and competitiveness, which are essential for us if we are to go on raising yet more tax from our banking sector. I commend the clause to the Committee.