Leasehold and Freehold Reform Bill (Third sitting)

Matthew Pennycook Excerpts

Committee stage
Thursday 18th January 2024 Public Bill Committees

[The Chair]

Before we start hearing from the witnesses, do any Members wish to make declarations of interest in connection with this Bill?

[Matthew Pennycook (Greenwich and Woolwich) (Lab)]

My wife is the joint chief executive of the Law Commission, whose work on leasehold reform we have regularly touched upon.

[Mike Amesbury (Weaver Vale) (Lab)]

I am a member of the all-party parliamentary group on leasehold and commonhold reform.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Chair]

Thank you for coming here and helping us with our deliberations.

[Matthew Pennycook]

Q Thank you all for coming in this morning to give evidence. I will perhaps return to Ms Higgins and Mr Smytherman if we have time in the session, but could I start with two questions to you, Ms Phillips, on shared ownership?

First, the Bill makes provision for the treatment of intermediate leases in a number of areas, but it does not contain, as far as I can read, any measures to directly resolve many of the challenges that shared owners face. Could you give us your general views on the Bill from a shared-ownership perspective? What is missing? What might we look to include if we could?

Secondly, the Government tabled more than 80 pages of complex amendments to their own Bill yesterday. Among those were amendments that would exclude certain shared-ownership leases from enfranchisement and make the new valuation method for calculating the premium payable for shared owners non-mandatory. If you have had a chance to look at those—you may not have—could you give us your views on those specific amendments? We know that enfranchisement for shared owners is expensive—it is challenging—but, none the less, is it a regret, from your point of view, that these amendments have been tabled?

Sue Phillips: I will start with yesterday’s amendments. I have had a look at them and I have called around legal experts, and, of course, it is far too short notice for a legal expert to comment, let alone a lay person like me. Therefore, I will concentrate in my evidence on what I would like to see in the Bill; I cannot comment on the degree to which those amendments will achieve those things, so I just want to make it clear that I cannot comment specifically on the amendments.

In terms of the Bill generally, obviously it is aimed at leaseholders. Shared owners are a very specific subset of leaseholders. They generally face additional problems over and above the problems faced by leaseholders. They have fewer rights and protections under law. They face additional burdens. They also have fewer protections under consumer protection, including new build codes. Therefore, they are generally disadvantaged. As it stands, the Bill does not represent a better deal for shared owners. That is partly because of the issue you referenced. Shared owners are sometimes, not always, in very complex ownership arrangements. There are problems for leaseholders generally, but there you have the additional party of a housing association in the mix. I could talk for half an hour on this; I will try to be very concise.

I will just pick out one example, which relates to the fact that shared owners do not have a statutory right to lease extension. If they did, they would have a right to a 90-year extension. In the absence of that right, some shared owners are in complex arrangements where their landlord is a sub-lessee with only a short interest in the lease themselves, so is actually incapable of offering the equivalent to the benefit that a leaseholder would get under the statutory route. That is unless you go through a process of extending all the leases, and all those costs are passed on to the shared owner. There is a real problem there that is not addressed in the Bill as it stands, in my understanding.

[Matthew Pennycook]

Q Have you explored any quick fixes for what we might look to persuade the Government to incorporate?

Sue Phillips: The problem with looking for quick fixes is that shared ownership is so complex, you run a risk of creating unanticipated consequences. Those particular questions are better directed at a lawyer or a legal expert, which I hope you will do this afternoon, when you have legal experts presenting their views on this Bill.

[The Chair]

Does anyone have anything to add? Do not feel that you have to; I am not putting you on the spot.

Ms Paula Higgins: There is one thing I would add. I am so pleased that Sue is here; she has done amazing work on shared ownership. I am not a legal expert, but I wonder whether you will be hearing from people from the retirement housing sector as well. That is a very complicated form of tenure, with exit fees and whatnot. Can they actually have the same rights to challenge fees and things like that? I am not sure if that is covered in some of your evidence sessions, but retirement housing is notoriously known for quite scandalous fees and charges.

Bob Smytherman: Certainly, we have seen a massive increase in shared ownership memberships coming to us for membership of residents’ associations. Obviously, we are helping them through that. In terms of quick wins, I really hope the Government will finally implement an independent statutory regulator for property managers. That would be a really quick win to help leaseholders. It is very disappointing that we have not got there yet, so I really hope there will be an independent regulator for these management companies that hold large amounts of leaseholders’ money.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Chair]

If anyone has not asked a question and wants to come in, please just indicate. Matt, Barry and Andy want to come back, so I come to you, Matt.

[Matthew Pennycook]

Q Two quick questions while I have got you here—on slightly different subjects. The first relates to the purchasing of a lease initially. In its 2018 consultation on implementing reforms to the leasehold system, the Government committed to requiring freeholders and managing agents to provide leasehold information at the point of sale within a defined time limit and a maximum cost. That is not in the Bill; would you welcome that being incorporated?

My second question is on the service charge provisions—clauses 26 to 30. In principle they might work very well; there is lots of detail to come through regulations. However, are there any specific ways in which you would like to see those service charge clauses tightened?

Ms Paula Higgins: We really welcome standardisation and having standard forms. That is what we, as the HomeOwners Alliance, when we get more than 4 million people coming to our website, can present and say, “These are the questions you can ask.” I really welcome that and having everything aligned so that it is similar. I am sure that we will go on to estate charges and people on freehold estates. Sorry—what was the first question?

[Matthew Pennycook]

Q Just on whether we should require freeholders to have standardised information at the point of purchase.

Ms Paula Higgins: Even though estate agents are supposed to provide basic up-front information, when we did our report on leasehold, half of the estate agents on things we were looking at were not even providing the information that the property was leasehold or freehold. We know that work is going on, and that estate agents are supposed to provide up-front information—we understand that there is the BASPI form—but the reality is that it is not happening. They are not regulated; they don’t know what their obligations are.

This is the other piece, particularly with managing agents, as you mentioned before. We need to have better regulation of managing agents, developers, and of housing associations that are promoting shared ownership, to ensure that they are giving the right up-front information and to ensure that in blocks—as you said you did, Bob—you do the LP form right away. We know that there is lots of delay there. That is one of the reasons why buying and selling leasehold properties takes so much longer. So we really welcomed having that up-front information. That is through the BASPI form, and it is probably through the regulation and management—having regulation of estate agents and managing agents, which is another piece of the pie that I think would be really welcomed in the Bill. I would welcome it if it were put in the Bill.

[Matthew Pennycook]

Q Do you want to say anything on service charges?

Ms Paula Higgins: On service charges, I think it is about being transparent. Some of the provisions in the Bill are about having proper annual accounts, so a lot of it is about trying to get that information. I have not looked at the detail of all the clauses there, but it is about people being able to get that information. That is why you need to have regulation of managing agents—to be able to provide that information properly.

[The Chair]

Q Sue Phillips, I think you wanted to say something.

Sue Phillips: Yes, on information at the point of sale. That is a little bit more complicated for shared owners. They are often directed towards the lease, but the lease is of course silent on the issue of 100% liability for service charges, so there is an issue there. They are often directed towards the key information document. I welcome the changes to the key information document in recent times, but I think they really do not go far enough. I would direct you to a report that I wrote last year about the 2016 to 2021 key information document, which goes into detail on improvements that I think should be made.

It is important to flag up that we need to look at not just content, but understandability in format. I have previously suggested that I think it would be useful to benchmark with other sectors, such as the pensions sector, on the understandability of issues relating to risk as well as benefit, and how to ensure that that content is communicated in a way that people do actually understand.

I will make a final point: a lot of shared ownership marketing presents itself as education about the model, which I think can be problematic, particularly because housing associations and their marketing teams are very up front about the idea that their marketing promotes the benefits. But it is important that people understand the risks and hazards as well as the benefits. So we need to look very closely at exactly where shared owners get their information at the point of sale, and where improvements could be made across all those areas.

Bob Smytherman: I think we would certainly welcome improvements in the conveyancing process. One of the things that our members certainly see is that they can get the information from a very specialist leasehold lawyer, which is obviously really helpful, but as in all sectors there are conveyancers out there where people google “conveyance” and think, “Oh, that is just a standard lease.” Of course, we all know that there is no such thing as a standard lease—their contracts are all very different. I know that about four or five years ago the Leasehold Advisory Service did some work around standardisation of information, so anything that we can do to prescribe that would be really helpful.

On the issue of service charges, there is absolutely one word, isn’t there—“transparency”? All the disputes that we see around service charges are where managing agents hide things because there is no statutory regulator, or where landlords kick accounts into the long grass because they don’t have to produce them. Having a prescribed way to be completely transparent about service charges is really important.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Chair]

We can see you, so if you want to come in on any question, gesticulate and you will hopefully catch my eye. That goes for both of you.

[Matthew Pennycook]

Q Thank you for your time, gentlemen. We have half an hour, but I would love to get in three specific questions, so I encourage you to be as brief as you can while answering.

The first question is on commonhold. Professor Steven, you have published extensively on the Scottish experience of commonhold legislation; Professor Hodges, I believe that you are a member of the Commonhold Council. On Tuesday, we heard from Professor Hopkins of the Law Commission that there are risks associated with a partial implementation of the Law Commission’s recommendations on commonhold. Do you agree with that, and if you do, are there any sensible steps we might take via amendments to the Bill to pave the way for commonhold in the future—for example, share of freehold in flats?

Professor Hodges: I think that was for Professor Steven.

Professor Steven: I am reluctant to answer that in any detail, because I am really not an expert on English land law. May I say something briefly about the Scottish perspective? The difference goes all the way back to 1290, when Edward I, in England, said, “You cannot have feudal grants of property.” Leasehold therefore had to be used, particularly for flats, because of the desire to impose obligations in relation to maintenance and contributions to maintenance. In Scotland, feudal grants were not banned until 2004, which means that flats and other properties were sold that way. We do not have leasehold in the way that you do. Existing feudal holdings were converted into outright ownership in 2004. We also had legislation on long leases that took effect in 2015, which also converted into ownership. The context is quite different.

[Matthew Pennycook]

Q In that case, I will move over to Professor Hodges, in the interests of time, if that is okay.

Professor Steven: Absolutely, and I can see you now.

Professor Hodges: I am very supportive of all the work that the Law Commission has done on commonhold, and we discussed it two or three years ago. I would do it, and this is part of a wider discussion that I expect we will get on to shortly. It is about change management. At the moment, it is rather like the point mentioned by the three previous witnesses. Property law moves terribly slowly—for heaven’s sake, just get on with it. We have the agents, the tenants and the landlords. What we are doing is saying, “Well, do this. Then do that. Then do that. Then do that.” We know where we need to get to, and that would be a very good system if we can get there. They need to train and do all sorts of things. You want to take out repetition or unnecessary cost in doing several things at once. It really is a change management point. We know where we want to get to—just do it basically.

[Matthew Pennycook]

Q Unless they confound us, the Government have been very clear that they are not going to do a commonhold package. Would share of freehold be a good interim step?

Professor Hodges: It is the obvious thing to do, isn’t it? But I would go further.

[Matthew Pennycook]

Q That is all I was looking for. My second question relates to non-litigation costs. The Government, when they published the Bill, claimed that it protected all leaseholders from non-litigation costs. However, clause 12 allows those costs to be passed on, either as they are or at a prescribed rate, in cases of low-value claims. That was because the Law Commission said that the shorter the expired term, the greater the risk for leaseholders in not extending but buying out their lease. This is a point about litigation in some senses, but do you think that, because of the difficulties of challenging a claim to that prescribed sum, leaseholders will be deterred from initiating the process of extending their lease or acquiring their freehold, if they still face, even at a prescribed rate, essentially non-litigation costs as part of claims?

Professor Hodges: Quite possibly, and this is a generic point about access to justice and simplifying dispute resolution. I think the answer to that is to move towards an integrated system, which actually the tribunal and several of the ombudsmen have been working on in the past year in relation to service charges. There are too many places where disputes can go. If we simplify that to an integrated system that supports decision making—part of the answer is clarity and transparency in regulation—but if you support that, things move much more quickly. It has always been the case that, for example, courts are slow. They are a very careful process and therefore you need experts and lawyers, and it takes money—it costs. Whereas, with tribunals and improvement, ombudsmen are free and they move quickly. Getting a modernisation of that system is the answer to this basically. That is not there yet, but it is absolutely within sight and achievable.

[Matthew Pennycook]

If you do not have anything to add Professor Stephen, I will move on to my third question.

Professor Steven: Please move on.

[Matthew Pennycook]

Q My last question relates to ground rents. Clause 21 gives effect to schedule 7, which provides leaseholders with a right to permanently replace their ground rent with a peppercorn, without extending their lease. However, the Government are proposing to apply it only to those with very long leases, so 150 years left or more. The rationale is, as per the Law Commission, that the shorter the unexpired term, the greater the likelihood of disadvantage. Do you have any thoughts on why the Government have chosen that 150-year limit? The Law Commission said 250 years. Do you think it is right, in principle, that someone with a 120-year lease, who may wish to extinguish their ground rent but not extend, is prohibited from doing so on the basis of the Bill, as it stands?

Professor Hodges: I think that it is outside my competence to know the background. My answer would be: just move to commonhold.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Chair]

Professor Steven, do you have anything to add to that?

Professor Steven: I do not.

[Matthew Pennycook]

Q I am trying to adjust my questions to your areas of expertise, but I am trying to focus on the Bill rather than abstract discussions about regulatory systems and what we might want. I have a specific question that follows on from Mr Amesbury’s question. Part 4 of the Bill provides for a new regulatory regime for private and mixed-use estates. Do you think that that is a good idea in principle? We in the House—particularly Mr Fuller and a specific set of Members in whose constituencies this is a very real issue—have been talking for years about a separate management regime. Do you think it is a good idea in principle to establish a completely separate stand-alone regulatory regime for estate management, or should we look instead to incorporate it in the existing system? Essentially, these people are all paying into the same pot, so should they not be covered by the same regulatory system?

Professor Hodges: I think there is an enormous missed opportunity for simplifying across social housing, private and so on. In particular, I would introduce the regulation of property agents working group reforms immediately. Almost everyone wants them, as far as I can see, and it would be easy to do, because you would just cut and paste the relevant regulatory bits from the recently enacted Building Safety Act 2022 and put them in for private managing agents.

As I said in the paper that I sent to you—I gather that Andrew Bulmer was talking about this two days ago here—there are three very good reasons why you need the regulation of property agents, each of which stands up on its own. There are obvious risks if you do not put that building block in place, because things are going to go wrong and there will be detriment to tenants and landlords.

[Matthew Pennycook]

Q To be clear, I agree with you on managing agents; I am talking about the regulation of private estates. The Bill provides for a new regulatory regime for private estates, which are not currently regulated. It is separate from the service charge regime. I am just wondering whether your simplification point works in this case too.

Professor Hodges: Everyone should be in and under the same regime—absolutely everyone in the system.

Professor Steven: I do not have a strong view on this.

[Barry Gardiner]

Q Professor Hodges, my colleague Richard Fuller sought to make a point about caveat emptor to you. Is it your experience that the inequity of power and information between developers or freeholders and the potential purchaser—the leaseholder—is so great that caveat emptor is inappropriate and that you need the power of regulation to sort out that inequity? I think it was the Law Commission that concluded that

“any financial gain for the landlord”—

or freeholder—

“will be at the expense of the leaseholder…Their interests are diametrically opposed, and consensus will be impossible to achieve.”

Professor Hodges: In any consumer or property—certainly social housing—dispute system, there is an obvious imbalance of power. People do not have the money to do things. I have chaired the Post Office Horizon compensation board advising Ministers in the past few weeks. The whole reason why Parliament needs to step in is to correct a massive imbalance of power. Private litigation did not work, or it only half worked. There have been many stories about people being traumatised, and not just unable to enforce their rights. That is why we have invented things like legal aid, Citizens Advice and an ombudsman, and we are still moving—we are still improving that one—because of the ongoing imbalance of power between the little people and larger organisations.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Chair]

Q We will now hear oral evidence from Paul Broadhead, the head of mortgage policy at the Building Societies Association. We have until 1 pm for this session. Could the witness introduce himself for the record, please?

Paul Broadhead: Good afternoon. I am Paul Broadhead, the head of mortgages and housing at the Building Societies Association, which represents all UK building societies and seven of the larger credit unions.

[Matthew Pennycook]

Q Thank you, Mr Broadhead, for coming to give us evidence. I have a very specific question about something that was briefly raised on Tuesday but that has not been explored in real depth. I have seen, as other Members may have, a noticeable rise in RPI-linked ground rent provisions in the wake of the implementation of the Leasehold Reform (Ground Rent) Act 2022—although they may not be connected. You will be aware that such terms could be considered onerous in certain circumstances. They would appear to be the result of specific mortgage lender policies, and somewhat at odds with the UK Finance position. What is your view on that trend and its causes and consequences? Specifically, how will the ground rent provisions in the Bill, namely the peppercorn 990-year lease extensions under clauses 7 and 8, the peppercorn variation under clause 21 and, potentially, complete abolition of ground rents on existing leases, impact on that trend? Will they mean that RPI-linked ground rent provisions are a thing of the past if this Bill is implemented?

Paul Broadhead: Yes, on the RPI, we have seen an increasing trend. I think that started when mortgage lenders changed their policies in terms of the escalating of ground rents—the doubling every five, 10 or 20 years, or whatever it might be. Mortgage lenders have started looking much more closely at the trends in ground rents to make sure that you can predict the affordability and fairness of those rents. You are absolutely right: the RPI change has followed on from many mortgage lenders moving to prevent the doubling of ground rents. We need to make sure we keep an eye on that and to make sure that they are fair and just.

[Matthew Pennycook]

They can be far more punitive.

Paul Broadhead: They can be, absolutely, with where RPI is. It is really difficult to predict. Some ground rents can grow very rapidly, which puts people in financial difficulty. From the lenders’ perspective, when underwriting a mortgage, they need to consider whether the mortgage is affordable on the face of it not only today, but in the future, and to take account of any foreseeable increases in expenditure. That is one of the areas they will take into account.

In terms of the peppercorn ground rent, yes, I do believe that that will resolve this going forward. The important thing to consider is that there is still a separate consultation, which just closed yesterday, on capping ground rent for existing leaseholders. It is really important that that is brought forward to prevent this two-tier system from developing.

[Barry Gardiner]

Q Mr Broadhead, I do not know how long you have been working in your present capacity, but I suspect it is since 1984. In 1984, your organisation’s report “Leaseholds—Time for a change?” said that the “leasehold system is incompatible with home ownership” and that an Englishman’s leasehold home “is his landlord’s castle”. I thought that was a very elegant way of expressing what many of us think. Is that still your organisation’s view?

Paul Broadhead: You are absolutely right. We have been advocating for the reform of leasehold since 1984. As you kindly point out, it was not me that made that comment at the time.